Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence
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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence
We have all probably heard this famous Carl Sagan Quote. I wonder how much this principle can apply to those in recovery from addiction. I explore all sorts of philosophical and pragmatic approaches to recovery and the one thing that is in common with almost every confident (this is what addiction is---leading to this is what will work) statement is a lack of evidence. Often the best evidence called upon is individual experience, and although this maybe powerful to the individual it tends to escape descent objective scrutiny. The other kind of push behind extraordinary claims seems to be a need to sell a product, gain a customer or justify a dogmatic principle with large numbers of followers.
There is an interesting paradox in recovery with many people genuinely wanting to help themselves and help others. A kind of serious, in some cases life threatening urgency to get sober leads us all to seek answers that have sustainable truth, however that urgency also makes us vulnerable to not taking the time to critically think about what is real. I understand from a personal level just how much trouble you can get into when your recovery moves from interesting observations to absolutes, the kind of self justification and confirmation bias that arises. Its not at all hard to see dogma and intolerance in many approaches that conflict with our own, But how often do we turn the skills of skepticism and critical thinking on ourselves.
So thats what is now important to me, not just in recovery but all aspects of my life. Developing critical thinking skills. Ask questions lots of questions, and don't be afraid to ask for evidence, do it to others but also yourself. Be mindful of your reactions to things and still curiously ask more questions. And remember don't be afraid to say 'I don't know' but maintain the keenness to find out
There is an interesting paradox in recovery with many people genuinely wanting to help themselves and help others. A kind of serious, in some cases life threatening urgency to get sober leads us all to seek answers that have sustainable truth, however that urgency also makes us vulnerable to not taking the time to critically think about what is real. I understand from a personal level just how much trouble you can get into when your recovery moves from interesting observations to absolutes, the kind of self justification and confirmation bias that arises. Its not at all hard to see dogma and intolerance in many approaches that conflict with our own, But how often do we turn the skills of skepticism and critical thinking on ourselves.
So thats what is now important to me, not just in recovery but all aspects of my life. Developing critical thinking skills. Ask questions lots of questions, and don't be afraid to ask for evidence, do it to others but also yourself. Be mindful of your reactions to things and still curiously ask more questions. And remember don't be afraid to say 'I don't know' but maintain the keenness to find out
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Thought provoking as usual, Sam. Thanks.
Some thoughts:
Personal experience is indeed powerful. However, lack of ability to think in a critical manner leads to incorrect conclusions. Personal experience is evidence, but evidence of what?
The full gamut of biases and fallacies and outright booboos in critical thinking are easily found. I feel that it is the lack of formal education in science and mathematics that is responsible for this gap in the general population. That isn't the only way to get a handle on how to know if you have any justification for believing what you do, or how to evaluate someone else's belief, but it a very accessible way to gain these skills in critical thinking.
I stumbled across this link from the Khan Academy. The section on critical thinking is very good in my opinion. Hope you enjoy.
Some thoughts:
Often the best evidence called upon is individual experience, and although this maybe powerful to the individual it tends to escape decent objective scrutiny.
I understand how much trouble you can get into when your recovery moves from interesting observations to absolutes, the kind of self justification and confirmation bias that arises.
I stumbled across this link from the Khan Academy. The section on critical thinking is very good in my opinion. Hope you enjoy.
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Originally Posted by freshstart57 
I stumbled across this link from the Khan Academy. The section on critical thinking is very good in my opinion. Hope you enjoy.
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Very 'thought' provoking 
, so thanks.
I tend to agree with you and freshstart, though would also add that those of us with mostly an Arts / Humanities / Social Sciences background are also trained in critical thinking, critique, analysis, heuristics, etc. Just wanted to add that to the mix.
, so thanks.I tend to agree with you and freshstart, though would also add that those of us with mostly an Arts / Humanities / Social Sciences background are also trained in critical thinking, critique, analysis, heuristics, etc. Just wanted to add that to the mix.
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Absolutely. This stuff is really a branch of philosophy, I understand. I was exposed to these ideas of philosophy and critical thought as aspects of math and science at while in grade school. The formal study of critical thinking skills happened for me after that.
The technical folk have no ownership of these critical thinking tools since these skills, as you rightly point out, BeMyself, form the basis of all rational discourse, no matter the topic.
The technical folk have no ownership of these critical thinking tools since these skills, as you rightly point out, BeMyself, form the basis of all rational discourse, no matter the topic.
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Better when never is never
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Originally Posted by MesaMan
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Just occurred to me this morning:
An interesting 'all rounder' concept and experiential 'task' that we can draw upon in order to further grow in recovery is Wisdom.
I have a potentially great book on the subject (have yet to read it, 'so many books, so little time', as the saying goes..):
Stephen S. Hall, Wisdom: From Philosophy to Neuroscience, Knopf, NY, 2010.
Scanning even just the contents page throws up many elements of application for the recovery journey - as, after all, we are primarily just human beings. Need all the wisdom we can get!
An interesting 'all rounder' concept and experiential 'task' that we can draw upon in order to further grow in recovery is Wisdom.
I have a potentially great book on the subject (have yet to read it, 'so many books, so little time', as the saying goes..):
Stephen S. Hall, Wisdom: From Philosophy to Neuroscience, Knopf, NY, 2010.
Scanning even just the contents page throws up many elements of application for the recovery journey - as, after all, we are primarily just human beings. Need all the wisdom we can get!
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Critical thinking can certainly sharpen and hone the intellect .
I'm not sure that incisiveness is or was terribly useful in becoming sober, all it seemed to do for me was make a small and deadly place sharper an addition to the firestorm race of ideas burning through my mind .
I often feel that books about recovery being discussed , are like people debating books that "teach" you how to fly helicopters .
I didn't need a book , critical thinking or a helicopter to get sober , Lucky for me eh ?
Bestwishes, m
I'm not sure that incisiveness is or was terribly useful in becoming sober, all it seemed to do for me was make a small and deadly place sharper an addition to the firestorm race of ideas burning through my mind .
I often feel that books about recovery being discussed , are like people debating books that "teach" you how to fly helicopters .
I didn't need a book , critical thinking or a helicopter to get sober , Lucky for me eh ?
Bestwishes, m
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its taken me years to try to stop being critical in my thinking and i can still do it today. its something that is always going to be ongoing for me
i just wonder if you have tried to change from being critical in your thinking to more of accepting ?
to me its an ongoing never ending situation, like trying to divide 100 by 3 it will just give a recurring answer that goes on indefernatly
so we are taught to just accept an approximate answer and if you do then its done ended and peace follows rather than trying to understand just why 3 will not go into 100 exactly
i just wonder if you have tried to change from being critical in your thinking to more of accepting ?
to me its an ongoing never ending situation, like trying to divide 100 by 3 it will just give a recurring answer that goes on indefernatly
so we are taught to just accept an approximate answer and if you do then its done ended and peace follows rather than trying to understand just why 3 will not go into 100 exactly
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Originally Posted by desypete
its taken me years to try to stop being critical in my thinking and i can still do it today. its something that is always going to be ongoing for me i just wonder if you have tried to change from being critical in your thinking to more of accepting ? to me its an ongoing never ending situation, like trying to divide 100 by 3 it will just give a recurring answer that goes on indefernatly so we are taught to just accept an approximate answer and if you do then its done ended and peace follows rather than trying to understand just why 3 will not go into 100 exactly
I think you may be misunderstanding what we mean by Critical Thinking skills and confusing it with the more negative term Being Critical. Its a similar situation when sometimes we see Skepticism as being cynical and in both cases Yes there are certainly people who can be negative and profess to having a skeptical critical thinking mind.
What I am getting at here is that Critical Thinking skills are really about asking questions, attempting to find what is true and ultimately accepting where it nay take us, even when that is to a point that we may not know. If we just accept things without sufficient evidence (or the subjective approximate) then for some people the ultimate reality is anything but PEACE. I personally am not all that keen on the word Peace here, its a hard concept to pin down, it makes more sense to use a term like 'stress reduction' .
There is always a danger when this kind of discussion comes up, we can get put off by what appears to be philosophical posturing and the language is hard to understand. There is often a perpetuating myth that we need this language to understand and satisfy our seeking for what is real. I personally am not that interested in approaching critical thinking from a platform of classic philosophy, but from more a pragmatic way of actual living, mindfulness and contemplation is my main approach.
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Originally Posted by samseb5351
Thanks Desypete.
I think you may be misunderstanding what we mean by Critical Thinking skills and confusing it with the more negative term Being Critical. Its a similar situation when sometimes we see Skepticism as being cynical and in both cases Yes there are certainly people who can be negative and profess to having a skeptical critical thinking mind.
What I am getting at here is that Critical Thinking skills are really about asking questions, attempting to find what is true and ultimately accepting where it nay take us, even when that is to a point that we may not know. If we just accept things without sufficient evidence (or the subjective approximate) then for some people the ultimate reality is anything but PEACE. I personally am not all that keen on the word Peace here, its a hard concept to pin down, it makes more sense to use a term like 'stress reduction' .
There is always a danger when this kind of discussion comes up, we can get put off by what appears to be philosophical posturing and the language is hard to understand. There is often a perpetuating myth that we need this language to understand and satisfy our seeking for what is real. I personally am not that interested in approaching critical thinking from a platform of classic philosophy, but from more a pragmatic way of actual living, mindfulness and contemplation is my main approach.
I think you may be misunderstanding what we mean by Critical Thinking skills and confusing it with the more negative term Being Critical. Its a similar situation when sometimes we see Skepticism as being cynical and in both cases Yes there are certainly people who can be negative and profess to having a skeptical critical thinking mind.
What I am getting at here is that Critical Thinking skills are really about asking questions, attempting to find what is true and ultimately accepting where it nay take us, even when that is to a point that we may not know. If we just accept things without sufficient evidence (or the subjective approximate) then for some people the ultimate reality is anything but PEACE. I personally am not all that keen on the word Peace here, its a hard concept to pin down, it makes more sense to use a term like 'stress reduction' .
There is always a danger when this kind of discussion comes up, we can get put off by what appears to be philosophical posturing and the language is hard to understand. There is often a perpetuating myth that we need this language to understand and satisfy our seeking for what is real. I personally am not that interested in approaching critical thinking from a platform of classic philosophy, but from more a pragmatic way of actual living, mindfulness and contemplation is my main approach.
when i smashed them up and seen the bits and peaces i still didnt have a clue how they worked and i couldnt put them back together again either lol so i had lost my toys and very often got a stern ticking off from mum and dad for being like i was lol
now my borther on the other hand was nothing like me he would just play with his toys and somehow not be interested at all how they worked he was just happy that they worked for him
so for me i have to come to the way my brother can think and the more i do that about all sorts in life then the less hurt, angry, frustrated, or dam well cheesed off with things i can feel
my personality is one where i see a sign telling me not to do something and i will do it just because it says i can not
like keep off the grass i will walk on the grass, or wet paint, i will touch the wet paint to see if its still wet, yet others will accept the paint is wet and not touch it yet me i will get my hands cover in the paint and moan my head off at getting paint on myself simply because i couldnt accept what the sign says
i know this isnt what your getting at but this is why i have to not try to understand so much about things in life rather than just accept things
as for me and my personality it causes me a problem that very often ends up with me being in trouble some where down the line
i have a very good chess brain as i can sit for ages planing attacks and working out my opponents options for defending etc i can get lost in chess for hours as i plan and i find my manipulation skills are a bonus for a game like that lol
dont know if i make anything clear here or not really ?
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Yes Desypete I understand that feeling very well. I too would let curiosity get the better of me and be left with many broken toys. Finding out how things work was often accompanied by a impatient kind of forcefulness, I am not sure whether I was over confident in my ability to put things back together or I didn't really care enough or had a moral sense of consequences. To tell the truth I not all that sure I learnt anything useful from that approach, I guess you could call it curiosity without boundaries.
This strange kind of "immediate gratification" thing stuck with me and played a major role in my gambling addiction, waiting for things to happen was often painful for me and in some respects still exists today. I for a very long time saw myself as "broken" in some way because of this, from my 12 step experiences to rehab, and spiritual practice I held a belief that my curiosity was "Bad". I had an at hand Script of the virtues of patience and peace and acceptance and even faith, there I was at the top of the Tree (in my own mind at least) mouthing the words of those virtues, faking it to make it. Why couldn't I be like those quiet wise looking people that you meet every now and then, the ones that look that they are satisfied with just being.
I really believed those kind of people as guru's But when you get a chance to get one on one with people like that and ask questions, what I have found is in most cases is a delusion, false humility and a very thin veneer of peace, patience and acceptance.
When I seriously started mindfulness and removed as much as possible the expectations from my observations, curiosity came back again, as calm interest. I didn't need answers per se and the question became enough Grist for the Mill and slowly I started to look to add onto my questions. Developing a kind of awareness that starts to cut through BS, out of this has come a kind of rich and robust living, with a sense of urgency that we only have one life and reality is nowhere near as scary as I once thought.
This strange kind of "immediate gratification" thing stuck with me and played a major role in my gambling addiction, waiting for things to happen was often painful for me and in some respects still exists today. I for a very long time saw myself as "broken" in some way because of this, from my 12 step experiences to rehab, and spiritual practice I held a belief that my curiosity was "Bad". I had an at hand Script of the virtues of patience and peace and acceptance and even faith, there I was at the top of the Tree (in my own mind at least) mouthing the words of those virtues, faking it to make it. Why couldn't I be like those quiet wise looking people that you meet every now and then, the ones that look that they are satisfied with just being.
I really believed those kind of people as guru's But when you get a chance to get one on one with people like that and ask questions, what I have found is in most cases is a delusion, false humility and a very thin veneer of peace, patience and acceptance.
When I seriously started mindfulness and removed as much as possible the expectations from my observations, curiosity came back again, as calm interest. I didn't need answers per se and the question became enough Grist for the Mill and slowly I started to look to add onto my questions. Developing a kind of awareness that starts to cut through BS, out of this has come a kind of rich and robust living, with a sense of urgency that we only have one life and reality is nowhere near as scary as I once thought.
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This is an interesting discussion, especially as it pertains to “recovery” and a search for what is real and true.
I’ve worked in natural resources management for many years. Two of the hardest concepts for people to grasp are that the occasional natural disaster is necessary for maintaining a healthy ecosystem, and that ecosystems can evolve and change drastically over time. Humans as part of an ecosystem are subject to the same conditions. In pragmatic terms, this means that what is true and real can and will change over time, and as such, it may be that “finding” the “truth” may not even matter. Of course, there is a fundamental truth that holds, but while a burnt out forest can be perfectly healthy, most people will not come to visit it because it no longer “works” for them.
For my own sobriety, the only truth is that if I don’t drink, then I will stay sober. I then support this goal with a method that is comfortable and keeps me motivated. As for the different methods I can choose from to support my recovery, the critical element is not truth but belief. Any method will work as long as I can believe in it, which is why some people can become very dogmatic about their particular approach. I am very aware that my own chosen approach is much more about what I am comfortable with than what is true (although, I do think I have stripped away much of the BS).
As for helping others, I point out that all methods require that you don’t drink to stay sober. Stick to that truth while you try on different methods. Don’t use “method X didn’t work for me” as an excuse to drink while method hopping.
Funny enough, one of the tools I have adopted in regard to my life preferences is to accept that they can be illogical and to never try to justify and explain them. That prevents others from conducting a critical analysis of them to try and convince me I am wrong or persuade me to have a different preference, which in turn gives me great peace.
I’ve worked in natural resources management for many years. Two of the hardest concepts for people to grasp are that the occasional natural disaster is necessary for maintaining a healthy ecosystem, and that ecosystems can evolve and change drastically over time. Humans as part of an ecosystem are subject to the same conditions. In pragmatic terms, this means that what is true and real can and will change over time, and as such, it may be that “finding” the “truth” may not even matter. Of course, there is a fundamental truth that holds, but while a burnt out forest can be perfectly healthy, most people will not come to visit it because it no longer “works” for them.
For my own sobriety, the only truth is that if I don’t drink, then I will stay sober. I then support this goal with a method that is comfortable and keeps me motivated. As for the different methods I can choose from to support my recovery, the critical element is not truth but belief. Any method will work as long as I can believe in it, which is why some people can become very dogmatic about their particular approach. I am very aware that my own chosen approach is much more about what I am comfortable with than what is true (although, I do think I have stripped away much of the BS).
As for helping others, I point out that all methods require that you don’t drink to stay sober. Stick to that truth while you try on different methods. Don’t use “method X didn’t work for me” as an excuse to drink while method hopping.
Funny enough, one of the tools I have adopted in regard to my life preferences is to accept that they can be illogical and to never try to justify and explain them. That prevents others from conducting a critical analysis of them to try and convince me I am wrong or persuade me to have a different preference, which in turn gives me great peace.
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Peoples experience is their truth and their evidence.
Imagine you are chained to a wall and cannot move and another person is chained opposite.
I hold a coin in the middle and ask what is on the coin?
Both see evidence and truth.... Just not through the others eyes.
Imagine you are chained to a wall and cannot move and another person is chained opposite.
I hold a coin in the middle and ask what is on the coin?
Both see evidence and truth.... Just not through the others eyes.
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The Illusion Of Objectivity
From Post #14:
'Funny enough, one of the tools I have adopted in regard to my life preferences is to accept that they can be illogical and to never try to justify and explain them. That prevents others from conducting a critical analysis of them to try and convince me I am wrong or persuade me to have a different preference, which in turn gives me great peace.'
I've engaged in this for a very long time, and it's also been applied during my near-year Sober. My conclusion is that Folks either understand and accept that some of us can just quit Drinking. Or, they don't. That we really are Addicts/Alcoholics, and can still just quit. That we don't have some imagined, bottomless Infirmities that we're masking or not addressing just because we see our Addictions as primarily Genetics-based. That we don't choose or explain a Program based on some numeric count of 'how many others' use this-or-that Program [or not]. I call this the 'McDonald's Hamburger Argument'. Those Hamburgers must be good because billions have been sold. Actually, they're not good if I don't like them. They enjoy mass acceptance. Big difference. This is one of the 'arguments' that most trivializes the important matter of Recovery. To walk away from this Program-related 'Belly Bumping' to Inner Peace ~1 year in has been very fulfilling. It wasn't terribly difficult. I believe I engage in Critical Thinking, but don't concern myself if others don't agree.
My favorite Line Of The Month in December from a Pundit here went something like this: 'If you want measure the Spiritual Development of a Person in Recovery, simply question their Program choice and watch their reaction'. Hee hee. Priceless.
Years ago, I was sent to a very pricey, week-long Seminar called 'How To Not Sell On Price'; despite being an Engineer-type. The Synopsis: Most Customers don't buy based on lowest price. They don't want to be stereotyped into that 'low brow' Category. Most all of us look at, say, new Vehicle Reliability. Styling. Features. Rebates. Price. And, so on. We compile and use all sorts of 'Stats' to rationalize our Vehicle choice POV. I just did this, and chose a Ford Truck. #1 selling Truck for 38 years straight. Meanwhile, Chevy Guys don't care about such 'indisputable Stats'.-)
Much of the 'millions of Folks have been helped by this Recovery Program' rationalization is similar. At the end of the day, most all of us simply do what we want, and choose the Recovery Program [or Vehicle] that we sincerely believe is 'best'. It's easy to observe who's secure in their choices.
My favorite Masthead from a Colorado Small Town Newspaper:
'You hear what you want to hear. You see what you want to see'.
----
'Funny enough, one of the tools I have adopted in regard to my life preferences is to accept that they can be illogical and to never try to justify and explain them. That prevents others from conducting a critical analysis of them to try and convince me I am wrong or persuade me to have a different preference, which in turn gives me great peace.'
I've engaged in this for a very long time, and it's also been applied during my near-year Sober. My conclusion is that Folks either understand and accept that some of us can just quit Drinking. Or, they don't. That we really are Addicts/Alcoholics, and can still just quit. That we don't have some imagined, bottomless Infirmities that we're masking or not addressing just because we see our Addictions as primarily Genetics-based. That we don't choose or explain a Program based on some numeric count of 'how many others' use this-or-that Program [or not]. I call this the 'McDonald's Hamburger Argument'. Those Hamburgers must be good because billions have been sold. Actually, they're not good if I don't like them. They enjoy mass acceptance. Big difference. This is one of the 'arguments' that most trivializes the important matter of Recovery. To walk away from this Program-related 'Belly Bumping' to Inner Peace ~1 year in has been very fulfilling. It wasn't terribly difficult. I believe I engage in Critical Thinking, but don't concern myself if others don't agree.
My favorite Line Of The Month in December from a Pundit here went something like this: 'If you want measure the Spiritual Development of a Person in Recovery, simply question their Program choice and watch their reaction'. Hee hee. Priceless.
Years ago, I was sent to a very pricey, week-long Seminar called 'How To Not Sell On Price'; despite being an Engineer-type. The Synopsis: Most Customers don't buy based on lowest price. They don't want to be stereotyped into that 'low brow' Category. Most all of us look at, say, new Vehicle Reliability. Styling. Features. Rebates. Price. And, so on. We compile and use all sorts of 'Stats' to rationalize our Vehicle choice POV. I just did this, and chose a Ford Truck. #1 selling Truck for 38 years straight. Meanwhile, Chevy Guys don't care about such 'indisputable Stats'.-)
Much of the 'millions of Folks have been helped by this Recovery Program' rationalization is similar. At the end of the day, most all of us simply do what we want, and choose the Recovery Program [or Vehicle] that we sincerely believe is 'best'. It's easy to observe who's secure in their choices.
My favorite Masthead from a Colorado Small Town Newspaper:
'You hear what you want to hear. You see what you want to see'.
----
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Originally Posted by Hawks
Peoples experience is their truth and their evidence. Imagine you are chained to a wall and cannot move and another person is chained opposite. I hold a coin in the middle and ask what is on the coin? Both see evidence and truth.... Just not through the others eyes.
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Which brings us back to the core of extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence.
The two people chained cannot provide evidence to the other, they must accept the others experience and truth or else we get a situation similar to The Allegory of the Cave.
Which is what we see in recovery.
People with mismatched experiences, doubting the experience of others, simply because their experiences don't match.
The two people chained cannot provide evidence to the other, they must accept the others experience and truth or else we get a situation similar to The Allegory of the Cave.
Which is what we see in recovery.
People with mismatched experiences, doubting the experience of others, simply because their experiences don't match.
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Originally Posted by Hawks
Which brings us back to the core of extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. The two people chained cannot provide evidence to the other, they must accept the others experience and truth or else we get a situation similar to The Allegory of the Cave. Which is what we see in recovery. People with mismatched experiences, doubting the experience of others, simply because their experiences don't match.
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Here is a better written discussion of what I am getting at here. http://www.earlytorise.com/truth-about-reality/
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