Completely self centered? Need advice please
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Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 56
Completely self centered? Need advice please
Hi, I usually post over in friends/ family of substance abusers, but there seems to be a lot going on over here with recovering spouses, so I thought I'd ask my question here. My AH, I guess he's recovering, he's going to NA, and counseling, and has stopped the drug use, but still says he can drink on occasion. (I hate this, but beyond telling him that I wouldn't be willing to move back in together, have stayed out of it) We have been married 20 years, but seperated since April.
He's been a mess, I won't go into that as I have written about it in past posts.
So, my question is, how long does it tend to take for an addict to get over being so self absorbed? It's so hard! I want things to work out between us, I really do. We are both doing our seperate counseling and seeing a counselor together as well. He has been staying with his mom while in recovery, and this weekend had the house to himself. He hates to be alone and wanted the kids and I to come over. The problem is, I got sick and it turned out to be pneumonia. I was running a fever of 102. He wanted me to come over so he could" take care of me" but I felt rotten, didn't want to go out in the cold, and frankly wanted my own bed! Plus I don't know if I'm ready for overnights, I guess. Friday it was " come over and hang out", Saturday, I said I needed to go into urgent care as I'm on immunosuppressants and the dr was concerned about the fever. AH told me I probably had a cold and we should go to the hot springs where I'd feel much better. After the dr, I told him I just wanted to sleep, he called that evening to see if I wanted to go to a movie. Really??? So anyway, it's continued like that all weekend. He asks, he offers to come get me, I say no. I try to be nice, maybe thats the problem. Then he gets mad and defensive that I won't hang out with him. At that point, more and more I don't want to hang out with him!
He just keeps pushing. We had a nice couple days shopping. We all spent Christmas Eve together, it was a nice day. Now it's like he wants things all to be fixed. We have fought on and off all weekend. The constant guilt trips have been crazy. He twists things around so much. I'm trying to be fair, I know he wants to see us, but he won't come here, because he hates my family, even though there is a place we could hang out and no one would bother us. Am I wrong? Its hard to be with him because it's so easy, if that makes sense. It's too easy to begin to let things slide, and we, I, need to feel safer. More sure of things. He's going to pick up the kids for a while tomorrow, but says he won't ask me as I'll just say no. I really feel like I need to try to go into work for a couple hours at least, so yes, I would say no.
Please help, does anyone have any advice? I know he's hurting too, however, it feels like dealing with a self absorbed adolescent! He also knows exactly what buttons to push. He wasn't always like this, does it get better? His last text said " I want to hug you, love you, and hang out with you. Not talk on the phone."
Arrrrgggggghhhh.....
Why am I the bad guy? I want this to work, but I'm not ready to jump right back in, especially when he's a total jerk when he doesn't get his own way. I know I'm ranting, any input would be appreciated. I'm tired, and sick and overwhelmed, so please be gentle. I know I'm probably an idiot for hoping things will improve, and I am working on my side, I just can't stop hoping, you know?
Thanks for listening.
He's been a mess, I won't go into that as I have written about it in past posts.
So, my question is, how long does it tend to take for an addict to get over being so self absorbed? It's so hard! I want things to work out between us, I really do. We are both doing our seperate counseling and seeing a counselor together as well. He has been staying with his mom while in recovery, and this weekend had the house to himself. He hates to be alone and wanted the kids and I to come over. The problem is, I got sick and it turned out to be pneumonia. I was running a fever of 102. He wanted me to come over so he could" take care of me" but I felt rotten, didn't want to go out in the cold, and frankly wanted my own bed! Plus I don't know if I'm ready for overnights, I guess. Friday it was " come over and hang out", Saturday, I said I needed to go into urgent care as I'm on immunosuppressants and the dr was concerned about the fever. AH told me I probably had a cold and we should go to the hot springs where I'd feel much better. After the dr, I told him I just wanted to sleep, he called that evening to see if I wanted to go to a movie. Really??? So anyway, it's continued like that all weekend. He asks, he offers to come get me, I say no. I try to be nice, maybe thats the problem. Then he gets mad and defensive that I won't hang out with him. At that point, more and more I don't want to hang out with him!
He just keeps pushing. We had a nice couple days shopping. We all spent Christmas Eve together, it was a nice day. Now it's like he wants things all to be fixed. We have fought on and off all weekend. The constant guilt trips have been crazy. He twists things around so much. I'm trying to be fair, I know he wants to see us, but he won't come here, because he hates my family, even though there is a place we could hang out and no one would bother us. Am I wrong? Its hard to be with him because it's so easy, if that makes sense. It's too easy to begin to let things slide, and we, I, need to feel safer. More sure of things. He's going to pick up the kids for a while tomorrow, but says he won't ask me as I'll just say no. I really feel like I need to try to go into work for a couple hours at least, so yes, I would say no.
Please help, does anyone have any advice? I know he's hurting too, however, it feels like dealing with a self absorbed adolescent! He also knows exactly what buttons to push. He wasn't always like this, does it get better? His last text said " I want to hug you, love you, and hang out with you. Not talk on the phone."
Arrrrgggggghhhh.....
Why am I the bad guy? I want this to work, but I'm not ready to jump right back in, especially when he's a total jerk when he doesn't get his own way. I know I'm ranting, any input would be appreciated. I'm tired, and sick and overwhelmed, so please be gentle. I know I'm probably an idiot for hoping things will improve, and I am working on my side, I just can't stop hoping, you know?
Thanks for listening.
Engineer Things; LOVE People
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,707
What they have told me, and seems to be the case in general -- First six months, expect Whackyworld.
Six Months to a Year -- settling in towards What You See Is What You Get.
One Year to Two -- That is it.
In none of that is Good or Bad. Could be either, generally some of both.
Sometimes you get a Relapser, Sometimes a Permanently Selfish Dry Drunk, and Sometimes a Miracle Cure.
But NONE of this is in Your Control -- nor should it be.
---------------------------------
IF They Work a/the Program, and You Do The Same -- Things could work out. If not, maybe not.
IF Just They Work the Program, often the Spouse is left bitter and alienated.
IF Just You Work the Program -- Just You will come out better.
===============
That is pretty much the 5 Centavo Tour of things on this side.
Welcome.
Six Months to a Year -- settling in towards What You See Is What You Get.
One Year to Two -- That is it.
In none of that is Good or Bad. Could be either, generally some of both.
Sometimes you get a Relapser, Sometimes a Permanently Selfish Dry Drunk, and Sometimes a Miracle Cure.
But NONE of this is in Your Control -- nor should it be.
---------------------------------
IF They Work a/the Program, and You Do The Same -- Things could work out. If not, maybe not.
IF Just They Work the Program, often the Spouse is left bitter and alienated.
IF Just You Work the Program -- Just You will come out better.
===============
That is pretty much the 5 Centavo Tour of things on this side.
Welcome.
Bunnies!
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,905
You've said that he believes he can still drink occasionally? Then "never" is your answer, until he abstains completely from all of his DOC's. Sorry, he's not sober if he's still drinking. His behavior is classic addict and won't change at all if he doesn't get completely clean.
~sb
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: MD
Posts: 15,964
alcohol is a class IV narcotic and not part of the NA program of recovery as they say to abstain from all drugs.
we have to work those 12 steps and stay completely sober for us to have that self centeredness go away (and it really never does, we have to be vigilant)
we have to work those 12 steps and stay completely sober for us to have that self centeredness go away (and it really never does, we have to be vigilant)
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,424
Sometimes the self-centered lack of empathy is just personality.
My mother was like that.
It was always all about her whether she was drinking or not.
I agree with Grits--there is absolutely no chance for things to really get better
while he is drinking in any amount. I'm an alcoholic too, and I assure you that
there is no such thing as "moderation" for people with a real alcohol problem.
You might want to reduce or eliminate contact if he is not interested in really quitting.
It sounds like he wants to have his cake and eat it too.
Alcoholics really can't drink "just a little" I'm sorry to say.
My mother was like that.
It was always all about her whether she was drinking or not.
I agree with Grits--there is absolutely no chance for things to really get better
while he is drinking in any amount. I'm an alcoholic too, and I assure you that
there is no such thing as "moderation" for people with a real alcohol problem.
You might want to reduce or eliminate contact if he is not interested in really quitting.
It sounds like he wants to have his cake and eat it too.
Alcoholics really can't drink "just a little" I'm sorry to say.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 56
Thank you all. I thought that about the drinking too, but his family, which is full of addiction, so not the best roll models, act like I'm being ridiculous for feeling like he should abstain from all substances. Including a beer, every once and awhile.
Also, thank you Hammer for the timeline, and the advice. I'll keep working my program, and taking the kids and I to our appts, all I can do really. Same old story, I suppose, I'm doing well, and then let myself get caught up in the crazy again.
I think that's why I keep holding back. He still seems so angry about things, and not like he's really taking responsibility for everything. Still very poor me, I have a disease, and not ready to understand the damage he's done, and try to make amends in a meaningful way. Like he can just sweep it under the rug and go on, which never works long term. Oh well, off to work, I feel horrible! Hope it's an easy day. Thank you all, if anyone has any more ideas, I'd love to hear them, I'm struggling here... My heart against my head.
Also, thank you Hammer for the timeline, and the advice. I'll keep working my program, and taking the kids and I to our appts, all I can do really. Same old story, I suppose, I'm doing well, and then let myself get caught up in the crazy again.
I think that's why I keep holding back. He still seems so angry about things, and not like he's really taking responsibility for everything. Still very poor me, I have a disease, and not ready to understand the damage he's done, and try to make amends in a meaningful way. Like he can just sweep it under the rug and go on, which never works long term. Oh well, off to work, I feel horrible! Hope it's an easy day. Thank you all, if anyone has any more ideas, I'd love to hear them, I'm struggling here... My heart against my head.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
IMHO, as a recovering addict, while early recovery is a challenging time for the addict, that doesn't mean others should have to bend over backwards OR treat them any differently. life goes on regardless. did the world come to a pause while YOU were sick? nope.
your best solution is to get better at the NO. you don't HAVE to answer the phone every time he calls, especially after stating clearly that NO you don't wanna "hang out" and you have pneumonia and need your rest. this is where you need to uphold your own boundaries. take "trying to be nice" off the table....you don't need to appease him, or put on the kid gloves. No means No. then the phone goes OFF and you don't let him annoy and pester you.
the best way to get a clear picture of the addict's motivation and agenda is to say NO. do they respond like an ADULT or like a 5 year old who doesn't get a cookie?
take care of YOU. and then the kids. that's it.
your best solution is to get better at the NO. you don't HAVE to answer the phone every time he calls, especially after stating clearly that NO you don't wanna "hang out" and you have pneumonia and need your rest. this is where you need to uphold your own boundaries. take "trying to be nice" off the table....you don't need to appease him, or put on the kid gloves. No means No. then the phone goes OFF and you don't let him annoy and pester you.
the best way to get a clear picture of the addict's motivation and agenda is to say NO. do they respond like an ADULT or like a 5 year old who doesn't get a cookie?
take care of YOU. and then the kids. that's it.
Bunnies!
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,905
Originally Posted by Hawkeye13 
Sometimes the self-centered lack of empathy is just personality.
My mother was like that.
It was always all about her whether she was drinking or not.
My mother was like that.
It was always all about her whether she was drinking or not.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: hot as heck, az
Posts: 142
I appreciate Hammer's post about the timeline.. except mine was at 18 months and supposedly counting and is worse than ever with the selfish behavior, so I guess that is it. Fortunately for me, I don't have to be involved in her drama unless I choose to, which sometimes I do to my own detriment.
My sponsor told me once "you don't have to answer the phone". It was like lightning struck me... it NEVER occurred to me that I don't have to take her call. Or answer her texts if I didn't want to engage. Now every night I put my phone on silent so I won't be tempted if there's a late night text or call - I won't hear/see it until morning and I get a good night's rest.
Take care of yourself, and your kids!
My sponsor told me once "you don't have to answer the phone". It was like lightning struck me... it NEVER occurred to me that I don't have to take her call. Or answer her texts if I didn't want to engage. Now every night I put my phone on silent so I won't be tempted if there's a late night text or call - I won't hear/see it until morning and I get a good night's rest.
Take care of yourself, and your kids!
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: northern AZ
Posts: 796
IMHO the Steps are designed to change the person from an immature one to a mature one. It sounds like he hasn't done them. If he has and is still as you describe the I would venture to say he has a personality disorder like narcissism or borderline personality. The odds of the Steps curing that are pretty slim as even psychiatrists have a pretty low success rate with them. But, it can be done of course. Just maintain your boundaries for yourself and your kid's health... staying a good role model for them. Don't loosen up on them by making immature choices yourself... stay the adult in your kid's lives. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh. I don't mean it to be as I can see you're hurting but its the best advice I have. Take care.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Midwest, USA
Posts: 2,899
your best solution is to get better at the NO. you don't HAVE to answer the phone every time he calls, especially after stating clearly that NO you don't wanna "hang out" and you have pneumonia and need your rest. this is where you need to uphold your own boundaries. take "trying to be nice" off the table....you don't need to appease him, or put on the kid gloves. No means No. then the phone goes OFF and you don't let him annoy and pester you.
the best way to get a clear picture of the addict's motivation and agenda is to say NO. do they respond like an ADULT or like a 5 year old who doesn't get a cookie?
the best way to get a clear picture of the addict's motivation and agenda is to say NO. do they respond like an ADULT or like a 5 year old who doesn't get a cookie?
When my XAH was on a sober clip, we all still had to walk on eggshells because he would flip out if you told him no. It was stupid, in hindsight. What do you get when you dry out a horse thief? A sober horse thief.
A big wake up call for me was when I brought my daughter home from the hospital after an unplanned C-section, and I suffered unusual complications, and somehow that time was still all about his needs and his discomfort. That was the time when I stopped turning to him for anything. I think that's when I stopped respecting him. He certainly didn't respect me, my pain, my needs, my feelings, my discomfort, and the give and take of a mutually satisfying adult relationship. By the end of the week, my "sober" XAH was relapse, and off to rehab again before I returned to work from maternity leave.
He wants things to be fixed? It sounds like he wants you to forget all his bad behavior and relieve himself of accountability for his bad behavior. Fortunately for him there are completely free programs in the community to help with all that.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Mmmmmm
Posts: 3,178
When I read your post Calm Water, I feel that he is pushing you while you are ill to get back into your good graces.
Another timeline I think worth hearing about is to rebuild a marriage after addiction some say here takes 5 years. I am glad you are separated. I bet he wants to end that situation. It gives you breathing space. I think you need that space from his selfishness.
Every time he pushes his own agenda, I'd back farther away personally.
Another timeline I think worth hearing about is to rebuild a marriage after addiction some say here takes 5 years. I am glad you are separated. I bet he wants to end that situation. It gives you breathing space. I think you need that space from his selfishness.
Every time he pushes his own agenda, I'd back farther away personally.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,424
Originally Posted by CodeJob
When I read your post Calm Water, I feel that he is pushing you while you are ill to get back into your good graces.
Another timeline I think worth hearing about is to rebuild a marriage after addiction some say here takes 5 years. I am glad you are separated. I bet he wants to end that situation. It gives you breathing space. I think you need that space from his selfishness.
Every time he pushes his own agenda, I'd back farther away personally.
Another timeline I think worth hearing about is to rebuild a marriage after addiction some say here takes 5 years. I am glad you are separated. I bet he wants to end that situation. It gives you breathing space. I think you need that space from his selfishness.
Every time he pushes his own agenda, I'd back farther away personally.
He doesn't have the right to push himself on you like this when you've asked for space. Period.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,792
I just remembered something that I nearly forgot...
Almost 21 years ago when I was in labor with my daughter my xah left me while I was in labor so he could "go move the car". Really? He went out to go get high on pot. While he was gone they said that I was fully dialated and i could start pushing. So needless to say I started pushing while he was getting stoned.
Fond memories I have, obviously I buried it so deep that I didnt even remember such a thing. These are the events in our lives that are just not "normal". We think everyone acts this way. Its amazing...
Almost 21 years ago when I was in labor with my daughter my xah left me while I was in labor so he could "go move the car". Really? He went out to go get high on pot. While he was gone they said that I was fully dialated and i could start pushing. So needless to say I started pushing while he was getting stoned.
Fond memories I have, obviously I buried it so deep that I didnt even remember such a thing. These are the events in our lives that are just not "normal". We think everyone acts this way. Its amazing...
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 6,262
So, my question is, how long does it tend to take for an addict to get over being so self absorbed?
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 56
Happy New Year! Sorry it took me so long to get back to the board, I hate posting on my phone! I was feeling better for New Years Eve, so the boys and I did go over for the night. We had a nice evening, caught up on some Game of Thrones episodes, and hung out. RAH and I talked about the drinking issue privately later, and he says he's ready to stop completely. Time will tell, I guess. I told him very plainly that I didn't consider him totally in recovery while he was drinking, and that I wouldn't be willing consider reconciliation unless he was totally clean. He asked me to come to him to NA this weekend. We will continue to see our counselors and just see where this takes us. I'm trying not to have any expectations, he still has a lot of work to do, and so do I.
Thank you all so much for sharing your stories and insight. I am working very hard on the getting better at No! It doesn't come easy to me, I've always either gone for trying to keep the peace, or avoiding the situation. I'm glad we're seperated right now too. I don't feel I'm at a place yet where I can maintain the strength I need, day in and out, and deal with him. Also, our boys comfort has to come first. They are all teens, so not young kids, and we're all working on repairing ourselves, as best we can. My RAH's family is a mess of addiction and disfunction and I do not want to continue the pattern! The boys really didn't care for alateen, but are working with a counselor, and family counseling.
I'm just trying to take this day by day, and stay as detached from the outcome as I can, easier said then done! To me, this is going to have to be a long, careful process. I haven't trusted his words in a long time, so he's going to have to show us that he's in a better place. He wants to hurry this along, but I can't, I don't want to ever be here again, and I know there are no guarantees, but actions speak louder then words! I know I'll be ok, no matter what. I would really be sad if we can't fix this, but it may not be fixable, and I do know that. The next few months are the last ditch effort to save a relationship that started in highschool for us. I honestly don't know how this will end but I feel like I have to give it one last try. I filled out the divorce papers last month, and they're waiting with the lawyer, for if I decide to go that route, but we promised ourselves the next three months to try. I think that's why he's so desperate to spend time with us, he doesn't want to lose this either. It's so hard, I think we do both really love each other, but I'm scared he can't beat this, and I can't live with it anymore.
Thank you again to everyone who responded. It's so hard, and so isolating to deal with this! It's like people judge the fact that you can't just walk away, and a lot of the time we probably should. But thanks for listening, and giving me honest advice and understanding. It means the world! If you have any other advice, I'd love to hear it.
Thank you all so much for sharing your stories and insight. I am working very hard on the getting better at No! It doesn't come easy to me, I've always either gone for trying to keep the peace, or avoiding the situation. I'm glad we're seperated right now too. I don't feel I'm at a place yet where I can maintain the strength I need, day in and out, and deal with him. Also, our boys comfort has to come first. They are all teens, so not young kids, and we're all working on repairing ourselves, as best we can. My RAH's family is a mess of addiction and disfunction and I do not want to continue the pattern! The boys really didn't care for alateen, but are working with a counselor, and family counseling.
I'm just trying to take this day by day, and stay as detached from the outcome as I can, easier said then done! To me, this is going to have to be a long, careful process. I haven't trusted his words in a long time, so he's going to have to show us that he's in a better place. He wants to hurry this along, but I can't, I don't want to ever be here again, and I know there are no guarantees, but actions speak louder then words! I know I'll be ok, no matter what. I would really be sad if we can't fix this, but it may not be fixable, and I do know that. The next few months are the last ditch effort to save a relationship that started in highschool for us. I honestly don't know how this will end but I feel like I have to give it one last try. I filled out the divorce papers last month, and they're waiting with the lawyer, for if I decide to go that route, but we promised ourselves the next three months to try. I think that's why he's so desperate to spend time with us, he doesn't want to lose this either. It's so hard, I think we do both really love each other, but I'm scared he can't beat this, and I can't live with it anymore.
Thank you again to everyone who responded. It's so hard, and so isolating to deal with this! It's like people judge the fact that you can't just walk away, and a lot of the time we probably should. But thanks for listening, and giving me honest advice and understanding. It means the world! If you have any other advice, I'd love to hear it.
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Join Date: Dec 2013
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Posts: 130
Calmwater -
I think it depends. If you're AH is self-absorbed because he's in recovery, then it could take months or even years. But if your AH is self-absorbed because this is a personality flaw that he's had since childhood, then he could be this way the rest of his life.
Your story sounds so similar to a man that I dated for several years. He was completely self-absorbed, only showed compassion towards me when it benefited him, and would never stop pressuring to see me even after telling him "no" countless times. I always had this hope that one day he would see what a jerk he was being and change (silly me). It wasn't until I was having a major crisis and he was still completely into himself that I realized that he was just being himself! And this was a man who never touched a drug or cup of alcohol in his life!
People normally develop empathy and compassion before the age of 4. From birth to 4 years of age are the formative years. If a person doesn't develop compassion for others during this critical time, it becomes very hard for them to develop it later on. If a child is raised in a loving, stable environment - human connection, trust, compassion and love is nurtured. But if they are raised in an environment of abuse, neglect, and instability - the building blocks of connection, trust, compassion and love are never formed. This could result in the person becoming extremely self-centered, manipulative and abusive.
There is a really good documentary called The Dark Matter of Love that shows a family taking in orphans from Russia. I really encourage you to watch it.
I think it depends. If you're AH is self-absorbed because he's in recovery, then it could take months or even years. But if your AH is self-absorbed because this is a personality flaw that he's had since childhood, then he could be this way the rest of his life.
Your story sounds so similar to a man that I dated for several years. He was completely self-absorbed, only showed compassion towards me when it benefited him, and would never stop pressuring to see me even after telling him "no" countless times. I always had this hope that one day he would see what a jerk he was being and change (silly me). It wasn't until I was having a major crisis and he was still completely into himself that I realized that he was just being himself! And this was a man who never touched a drug or cup of alcohol in his life!
People normally develop empathy and compassion before the age of 4. From birth to 4 years of age are the formative years. If a person doesn't develop compassion for others during this critical time, it becomes very hard for them to develop it later on. If a child is raised in a loving, stable environment - human connection, trust, compassion and love is nurtured. But if they are raised in an environment of abuse, neglect, and instability - the building blocks of connection, trust, compassion and love are never formed. This could result in the person becoming extremely self-centered, manipulative and abusive.
There is a really good documentary called The Dark Matter of Love that shows a family taking in orphans from Russia. I really encourage you to watch it.
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