Nonsensical

Anderson Cooper did a piece on Mindfulness on 60 minutes last night. If you missed it you can catch it here:
Mindfulness - CBS News

They even gave a brief mention in the story on using it to defeat addictions.

anattaboy

Should be interesting. Thanks nonsensical.

jazzfish

Thanks, I will check that out.

freshstart57

One aspect of mindfulness is non-judgmental awareness of our thoughts as they happen. If we look at what this means to thoughts of drinking, we see AVRT. AVRT is to an extent, a specific application of mindfulness.

SoberLeigh

Thanks, Non.

jazzfish

I was thinking about this today. My impression, and I may be wrong, is that AVRT is quite judgmental about those thoughts to use, whereas mindfulness sees thoughts of using as a part of us and does not judge them bad or good. I often read of people telling their AV (i.e. thought of using) to eff off, rather than embrace it and just watch it rise and then dissipate. The similarity is that just because we have a thought to use doesn't mean we have to act on it.

In practice, for me it depends on my mood where one is more appealing than the other.

jazzfish

I was thinking about this today. My impression, and I may be wrong, is that AVRT is quite judgmental about those thoughts to use, whereas mindfulness sees thoughts of using as a part of us and does not judge them bad or good. I often read of people telling their AV (i.e. thought of using) to eff off, rather than embrace it and just watch it rise and then dissipate. The similarity is that just because we have a thought to use doesn't mean we have to act on it.

In practice, for me it depends on my mood where one is more appealing than the other.

jazzfish

I was thinking about this today. My impression, and I may be wrong, is that AVRT is quite judgmental about those thoughts to use, whereas mindfulness sees thoughts of using as a part of us and does not judge them bad or good. I often read of people telling their AV (i.e. thought of using) to eff off, rather than embrace it and just watch it rise and then dissipate. The similarity is that just because we have a thought to use doesn't mean we have to act on it.

In practice, for me it depends on my mood where one is more appealing than the other.

Soberpotamus

Urge surfing seems to be non-judgemental treatment of urges or the AV, in my opinion. I tend to agree with Jazzfish above about AVRT.

Nonsensical

Ditto. If I am feeling competitive,then I bask in my victory over The Beast. If I am feeling introspective I observe and contemplate.

Creekryder

Although I see the analogy of the beast and, at times, feel there are two entities that are entwined in my existence, I have issues in personifying my addiction as such. I feel it tries to isolate my habitual drinking habit from myself as a whole. That addictive nature is more complex than a simple-minded beast. That part of me has been developed and nurtured from childhood, only to be brought forward by alcohol during my late teens and early adulthood. The only solution is to rewire what I have created in my brain. Is it not true we must embrace our addiction (acknowledge) and only then begin the process of change? But since it is so much a part of who we actually are, that change is so difficult to incorporate. So the "beast" and I are one and the same, inseperatable and integrated . The addiction is a habit I learned to use in a variety of ways to achieve a variety of effects in life. Pleasure, fear reduction, socializing tool, etc., etc. I then must reprogram myself, not the beast, with new and non-destructive methods of coping with these life issues. That, my fellow addicts, is the key to sobriety, of course IMHO.

samseb5351

Yes I totally agree here, if we are to practice mindfulness then one of its key components is non-judgement. If we go in the door with using labels like 'beast' and creating a hard edged approach that AVRT suggest. Then maybe we are on the back foot before we even start.

freshstart57

This is a complex and personal question: a dualistic approach like what AVRT advises, or a more holistic integrated approach? I can't say which is better, only share my experience.

Sam has suggested we discuss this before, maybe this is the place and time. I think I initially achieved my sobriety through a dualist approach, a scorched earth concept I had used in the past in dealing with toxic and self defeating personal relationships, a concept I applied successfully in dealing with my thoughts of drinking. I made the Big Plan, which imposed a type of separation within my thinking - never drink again no matter what. Dismiss with extreme prejudice any thoughts of drinking, now or in the future.

As I came to understand, I did not need to adopt this position with my AV. Once I had made the separation, I learned that these thoughts had no power over my actions. I understood that I need not dismiss with prejudice these powerless thoughts, that effort became unnecessary.

In fact, the acceptance of their existence was enough to dismiss them at this point. This led to another measure of serenity, and I am all for that.

I would advise others beginning this path or a similar one, to make that internal separation - these thoughts are about alcohol, therefore not mine, and therefore not me. At some time in the future, I think the integrated understanding is ultimately more stable and possibly more successful.

My experience though is that I could never have arrived where I am now without first passing through that earlier scenario and gained the confidence in myself that enabled the progression I just described.

oak

Thanks for the link to the mindfulness video.

I'm so glad to hear people talking about mindfulness & AVRT. From the beginning I was uncomfortable with calling my AV a beast, telling it to **** off, and drawing a clear distinction between me and my AV, so I just didn't use AVRT, even though there are aspects of it that I agree with.

I have practiced insight meditation off and on for years, so I am used to the practice of noticing thoughts & feelings without trying to change them. (not that I am always great at doing this practice!)

I experienced a lot of trauma as a child and have lots of dissociated parts of myself, so as an adult I have worked to heal and integrate my different parts. The separation in AVRT has seemed counter to my overall goal of integration. But yet I get that for people who don't already have intense inner separation that externalizing the AV could be helpful.

jazzfish

Excellent discussion on this. I view AVRT as only a tool to help people stop drinking. There is scientific merit to Freshstart's suggestion that beginners to sobriety start with this view of the mind as being internally separated. Long-term excessive drinking has been shown to both rewire the way our brain rewards our drinking and to diminish the cognitive functions responsible for good decision-making. To quote one study:

Accordingly, chronic alcoholics demonstrate impaired judgment, blunted affect, poor insight, social withdrawal, reduced motivation, distractibility, attention and impulse-control deficits.

In a very real sense, someone just starting to get sober really is of two minds. I know that I used to "play the tape forward", work a cost-benefit analysis of drinking, ask for support, go for a walk, consider the facts, and still "decide" to drink. Yes, it was still a decision, but the condition of my brain greatly undermined arriving at the right one. Simply shouting down any thought to drink as something separate from me (a beast, not the true me, brain damage, or whatever) was very easy, useful and effective. But, ultimately AVRT is just a tool, and I try not to be too black & white in my thinking towards them.

As you heal or if you are experienced with meditation, the AVRT tool may not be needed. To me, mindfulness is much more of a full life approach. Jon Kabat-Zinn defines it as: “Mindfulness means paying attention in a particular way; on purpose, in the present moment, and nonjudgmentally.” This strikes me as more of a principle by which to live your life than a thought-action management tool; although practicing mindfulness can indeed lead to better management of the thought-action connection.

Nonsensical

This strikes me as highly likely. I've no actual data to cite, but I would be very surprised to learn there are many experienced meditators with current substance abuse problems.

AVRT as a gateway to mindfulness is an intriguing concept, and one which seems to have merit. Good discussion.

samseb5351

Thanks for the reply Freshstart.
What maybe happenng for all of us with some sober time is a form of confirmation bias that can come from Hindsight piecing together of what we were, what we did and who we are now. On the surface it appears to be like stepping stones from one thing to the next, when we look back its not hard to see (as there is no other data to look at) a kind of pattern and in some way it almost looks purposeful.
Its common when we appreciate our soberiety to say things like "if it wasnt for ....fill the blank.... I would not be sober today". When we do this its possible we pick and choose things as necessary parts of a whole, ahh but heres the thing.... Had we done it a different way would we still be sober, We can never know, but we also cannot prove the way it did pan out was necessary, Yet when it comes to sharing our journey and even when we have grown or blown past most of those stepping stones, we still give importance to things we now see as inaccurate or lacking evidence. There is subtle idea here and its reflected in an old AA saying that says "if you want what I have you'll need to do what I did" hmm thats a recipe for disaster if i have ever seen one.
For you Freshstart I see a thoughtful and mindful recovery, and in many respects non judgmental. Many topics and articles you have introduced I agree with and appreciate.
For you I see RR as part of your journey as 12 steps was a major part of mine, but the challenge maybe to transition away without creating confusing ideas that these were necessary parts of our journey. There maybe more that contributes to our sobriety than just our choices our age, culture, opportunity and dumb luck for example. We dont end up talking about these things Why because it interferes with Our recovery narrative.

I am just about ready now to leave the recovery world behind, I have explored it from all angles, and I now prefer approaching life from secular, skeptical and critical thinking.
I do like Secular Connections however, a rare place in recovery rooms that all Questioning is welcomed.

Spacegoat

I will watch it during the week. Thanks