freetosmile

I often wonder if my AH even has the ABILITY to put himself in someone else's shoes. Sometimes I try to explain my point of view to him (when he is sober) and I just get no where.

I don't know if that is my husbands thing or is it an alcoholic thing.
All he keeps talking about is how scared he is about treatment. I get that, I really do. I tried expressing some of my own fears and wow! It just changed so fast to HIM. His fears.

I've kind of always had that issue with him. Everything being about HIM unless he's mad and then of course it's all about me.

Anyone else experience this?

Wisconsin

Honestly? I don't know if alcoholics, as a group, are missing the ability to feel empathy. I know that MY AH is not capable of it (he was when he had over a year of active recovery under his belt, but since his relapse began 5 years ago...no). The obviousness of the absence of empathy is almost comical. Equally comical is his very clear belief that he IS empathetic, and that he IS a nice guy, and that he IS all the good things he thinks he is.

"Haven't I always said what a great mom you are?"

Uh, no. In fact, you have declared that I have ruined our son's life more times than I can count.

"Haven't I always been a shoulder for you during tough times?"

Uh, no. In fact, you have belittled my feelings, turned away from me emotionally and physically, and actually refused to comfort me when I have asked for comfort.

Every single conversation we have is about him and his feelings and his complaints. Every single one. If I am sick with a cold, he is sicker. If I am tired, he is more tired. It goes on and on and on. And, like you said, the only time the conversation is ever about me is if he is blaming me for something.

There's a whole lot of gaslighting going on in our house since we started seeing the marriage counselor/addiction counselor. I'm not sure he even knows he's doing it--he obviously truly believes the things he is saying. Mercifully, I am much wiser to the reality of the situation now, and stopped buying into the crap a log time ago.

Rest assured I am sending you great big giant empathy ((HUGS)) right now.

lucybb

Yup. The world revolves around him. I don't know if that is part of the addiction. I think it is more likely that pre-existing self-centeredness makes it easier to develop an addiction as you are only looking out for number 1. My AH only thinks about his needs. Eg. Get a large pizza for dinner, I eat 2 slices, he eats 4. I set aside the last 4 thinking that could be our lunch tomorrow - all gone by morning. Seems petty, but it typifies the attitude. It's not even selfish where you think your needs come first so much as only seeing his needs and not even thinking anyone else has any. Or caring. And if I mention it 'hey, why'd you eat all the pizza, I was hoping to have some for lunch' I get 'well, I guess I'm just an A-hole then'. So now I'm the jerk for saying anything and he waits for an apology and for me to reassure him that he is not an A-hole. Grrr....

lizatola

I don't know if this is all alcoholics, but my AH is exactly like that, even when he was dry for 15 years. I would tell him all about how I was feeling if he hurt me with words or actions, try to connect emotionally with him, or tell him I felt compassion for any hurt he was going through, and usually the conversation would turn around immediately to HIM. To how put upon he is, to how awful his life is, making excuses for the hurt he inflicted, "I only act that way towards you because my life sucks and my childhood was awful and corporate America is mean to me." And, then, I'd sit there for 3 hours listening to his diatribe over why his life is so miserable and my needs or any intimacy I was trying to achieve just flew out the window.

If I expressed empathy to him and said stuff like, "I know how you're feeling, I felt that way when blah blah....." His response would be, "This isn't a competition, you know!" So much for me even trying, so I gave up. I'm not sure either one of us was really equipped to meet each other's needs there was so much dysfunction.

freetosmile

Ha! We must have married the same man.
He has these delusions of grandeur like " I've always been a rock for you!"

Last year my ex died. He is the father of my three kids and was shot and killed by the police. He was a meth addict. ( I really know how to pick em).

When I found out he died I cried a little. I mean I was with him for 12 years. He was an a hole for sure...but I shared a big portion of my life with him. And we had kids together.

My AH said that when my ex died that was the last straw for him because I felt I could cry on his shoulder about it and that my *FEW* tears really showed him that I was still in love with my ex. To this day, my ex ( any conversation or anything) is off limits. Sucks for my kids, who don't understand why they can't even bring up his name......

charis78

It was the same for my ex. He never had empathy and even after laying in ICU almost dead it was still about his feelings. If I told him how I felt I received a f off

freetosmile

double post

Thumper

My ex can be kind and caring and take care of people and do loving things and love other people. He has done those things.

I also believe he is fundamentally unable to put himself in someone else's shoes so to speak. He never did when we were together but he was drinking. In the end he was so far from reality it defied any and all logic. There was just no response. I could not even be mad and I think such overt dysfunction actually helped me to let go and detach. He is in recovery now and we do not correspond very much so I might not have the complete picture but when he says anything about the kids, their relationship, what he'd like to see different, why he doesn't call much or answer and return calls, etc. - it is always in relationship to how badly he feels, how a change would impact him, his sadness etc. He has never once mentioned how the current situation is affecting his kids or how that might be improved or addressed.

dandylion

freetosmile.....from my perspective...it is impossible to tell while they are drinking...and, have not entered recovery (1 to 2yrs considered early recovery).
Everyone has different abilities for feeling empathy...alcoholic or not.

BUT...here is the sticky wicket: EVEN IF THEY DO POSSESS THE ABILITY--THEY DO NOT HAVE THE PRIVILEGE OF EXERCISING IT! All their efforts are used to protect their ability to drink. Feeling empathy would smash their world to bits.

If you are interested in reading the reasoning behind this , in more detail....I refer you to the website: bmawellness.com Read the article written by Floyd P. Garrett, M.D.---"Addiction, lies, and relationships" (under the heading of Psychiatry and Wellness). It is one of the best pieces I have ever read on this subject. All of his are excellent, by the way.

dandylion

Dojang

My ex ABF wanted to sell his Roth IRA and buy himself a new Camaro. He felt like he deserved it after all he had been through. What he had been through was losing custody and any visitation with his children because of his drinking. All he could focus on was how this affected him and how he was the victim. He didn't give a crap about how his actions had hurt his children. He lost custody & visitation because his drinking kept putting the safety of his children at risk. That was when he could stop drinking long enough to make it to visitation.

Bullfrog

Yes, I started noticing that more and more in my marriage. It was me coming out of denial. I slowly started taking notice that every conversation, every topic, every everything always shifted back to him.

I don't really know which came first-- the addiction or the addict. More and more, I agree with Al Anon and AA that alcoholism is a spiritual disease. The alcohol is merely a symptom. The selfish resentful narcissism is at the core. Unless they work through that, no, they cannot be empathetic.

freetosmile

I agree with this- a spiritual disease....hmmm...I will be pondering this today just because I think I can relate it to my own codependent recovery as well. Thanks for this!

firebolt

Yeah, I'm noticing a serious lack of empathy as well. Haha - a girlfriend of mine was actually describing her narcissistic husband to us one day, and ABF chimes in " THAT SOUNDS LIKE ME!"

Well, punkin, fair enough.

Wisconsin

Liz, my AH is the same way with the constant insistence that I do not show him compassion. When the truth is, of course, that I have shown him far too much enabling "compassion" over the years. Unfortunately, he has a very, very narrow view of what he believes will make him happy, and my unwillingness to do those things (which include moving 600 miles away from my daughters) means I am a cold-hearted b*tch who doesn't care about his feelings.

hopeful4

LOL, this just cracked me up for some reason. I was needing a good laugh today, THANK YOU!

FireSprite

OMGosh, I laughed SO hard at this!!!

RAH absolutely lacks empathy & perspective. He is incapable of seeing things from any POV except his own. Once he's affected by something though - watch out, he totally "gets" it & wants to share this new awareness with everyone, lol.

I don't think ALL alcoholics lack empathy, but I think those that are naturally lacking in empathy make "good" addicts.

LifeRecovery

I just want to thank you all for this post.

I don't know that my loved one that got me here struggled with personality disorder stuff or not, but lack of empathy I am seeing in retrospect was a big part of the challenges that we had.

Then again I have this skill in droves and it gets me into trouble the opposite way.

Thanks this gives me a lot to think about.

shil2587

No, I don't think so. My RAbf.seems.to.have the opposite issue. Actually he is probably.more.of a double winner. His emotions tend to be tied to those of people around him and he can certainly read me.like a book and anticipate what I need and whether I need comfort. One of the reasons he drinks.is when.he get too tangled in other people's needs.

Liberator4EVA

I see a term bandied around, in studies regarding loss of grey matter in long term alkies, about them aquiring measurable deficits in cognitive function, particularly in the "theory of mind" area, over time. I 'm not sure what "theory of mind" is myself however, not being any kind of psychologist.

I have noticed, with the heavy drinkers i met in my life, that when trying to make neutral conversation, an anecdote about work for example, they seem to misinterpret the point i'm trying to make in a way that's surprising for their intelligence level and given how well they know me. And this tendency got worse with time, with the drinkers i knew for decades. Having to keep stopping my flow to say "No, no, no, that's not what i'm trying to say at all..." got to be hard work. They were always trying to twist things to their own narrative, projecting their feelings onto other people in the complete absence of supporting evidence, or alternatively, classing all their thoughts and actions in accordance with a small range of stereotypes about people they hold.

I mean, i personally have no real idea what people around me might be thinking... the only way i can know for sure is to ask them.... right?

AnvilheadII

freetosmile...i understand wanting to know what they are thinking....but WE NEVER WILL. what he thinks, how he thinks, what his own personal agenda is....those remain locked in his head.

so you instead watch his actions. and i'm sorry, you haven't listed one single redeeming quality about this man thru a description of his actions yet. when you said you know how to pick 'em, there IS some truth to that behavior...for ALL us....doing the same thing over and over again, expectiing different results.

addicts do that with the next hit....THIS time i won't go nutty, i won't hear sirens. alcoholics do it with drink...THIS time i won't black out, i won't hit her, i won't throw up my lower intestines. and codependent/ACOAs do it too....this time they won't leave me, THIS time they will love me enough to stay. THIS time they will sacrifice everything to be with me, and make me their princess.

you're in kind of a bad way here. he has way too much of the power....you defer to him too much. right now you have everything hinging on him MAYBE going to treatment.....while he drinks his @ss off and spends money you guys don't have. he's diggin ya'll in real deep and you simply have to start taking some actions to keep from falling into the pit with him.

you can't keep looking to him to fix this.