thotful

This is a particular statement in an e-mail from one of my siblings in October.

I want some thoughts - how would you feel about something like this in regards to your wife/husband/significant other? By the way, there has been no explanation as to what his issue is with her (something that they could work to resolve). One thing was something that happened years ago where he misinterpreted her intentions and she apologized when he finally spoke to us about it (he had been holding it in for 2 years - he lived with us for 3 months and when he left temporarily when we were getting married he thought she "hurried" him along and that he wasn't welcome anymore).

"I would like to spend time with you. Although your wife and I do not get along. Your choice to take "both of us" or "neither of us" has hurt our relationship. I wish there was a middle ground for us. Why is it that I am willing to see you on a personal level without your wife, but you deny me your relationship."

MissFixit

Without knowing anything about your situation, why can't you visit your brother without your wife? That seems kinda codie if you cannot or do not want to do stuff without her. He is your brother, you knew him long before she was in the picture. As long as he isn't sitting there cursing her out to you, what is the problem?

SparkleKitty

Thotful I don't know if your siblings will ever understand that you believe they are the ones initiating these limitations on your relationship. You can try to explain it to them until you are blue in the face -- what is worth more to you, being right or being at peace?

thotful

Life is full of events. Let's say a 1000 of them with this brother.

What my brother is saying is that all 1000 would be without my wife (just him and I).

What I am saying is that not all 1000 would be without my wife. Some might be some personal time, but most will be with both of us (or, she's at least invited).

For example, we went to watch the second "300" movie. She wasn't interested. Perfectly cool with me to have some bro time. What's not cool (to me) is if my brother will only see me in scenarios where she isn't coming.

FireSprite

Well, your brother absolutely has the right to set whatever boundaries he chooses for whatever reasons he finds acceptable. YOU don't have to agree with it, but it's not up to you to change his mind either, IMO.

I refuse to deal with my MIL, FIL or 2 of my BIL's - but I don't stop RAH from having relationships with them on his own. I also refuse to have anything to do with my sister's Ex even though he is the father of my nephew. I simply bow out of activities when he will be present out of respect for my sister. I won't be around toxic people, period, & I don't need them all to understand the reasons why *I* consider them toxic.

lillamy

Well -- I can see this from several sides.

One would be this: My spouse and I are family. Anyone who decides they don't want to be around my spouse, I will have to think long and hard about whether I want in my life.

Two: If there was just a personality conflict or something (like if my brother was a Communist and my spouse was a card-carrying Tea Party member and every encounter ended in verbal fistfights), I would have no problem with seeing my brother separate from my wife.

But as I recall, that's not the case for you, right? If I remember correctly, your father is an A, you have two brothers who are As that you're estranged from, and you're an RA yourself? Do I have that right?

I also seem to recall your family being negative to your wife because the felt she had changed you (including the fact that you've become sober since you married)?

Do you want a relationship with your brother? I think that's my basic question. If you don't, don't worry about why he's trying to avoid your wife. If you do want a relationship with him, then I would consider my boundaries in that relationship. Things like, "If he starts badmouthing my wife, I will tell him that is not acceptable and I will leave" or "If he insists on buying me alcohol, I will get up and walk out."

lillamy

And I just saw your second post. And now I understand what you're getting at.

He says she is never welcome any time you guys do something together. Like, if his kid turns 5 and you're invited to the birthday party, she's not invited?

Like Firesprite said, he has every right to set whatever boundaries he wants. And so do you. So he can say "Wifey can't come to Junior's birthday party" and you can say "Then neither will I."

POAndrea

I re-read some of your past posts (notably this one: http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ght-there.html,) and I certainly understand why you would want to set up some guidelines to avoid toxic interaction with your FOO. Good stuff, there, for all of us struggling to strike a balance between the relationship we have with our A's and those we have with others (even sober, sane people.)

I was very resentful when those healthy friends and family told me that I was welcome in their home, but my AH was not. It wasn't until I began setting and observing my own boundaries that I understood and accepted theirs as equally valid. If I am allowed to say to Himself "I don't appreciate the way you behave when you are drunk and I will not interact with you whenever you are under the influence of alcohol", then my friends get to do it too. I thought I was being a good, loyal wife by sticking by him, but I realized I was just codependent. I figured out their boundaries are not about me, they're about his behavior. I am now so grateful that some of these people loved me enough to continue to invest in our friendship despite what an awful drunk my husband was. They were smart enough to know that we were two completely separate people even before I figured it out myself. (Remember: codependent.) To be fair, there are some with whom I have not re-established a relationship, but it's not because they didn't want my husband around but for various reasons completely unrelated to his alcoholism.

thotful

What's interesting is that my siblings my retort with, "but she is welcome" (even though she hasn't been invited).

Then, I go to the get-together and my wife comes along. However, my wife is completely ignored.

Simply saying you won't see someone is just one way to set a boundary. Another way is to just ignore them or not talk to them. Thus, in my opinion, they might accept our physical presence, but don't want any of our mental, emotional, or spiritual presence. No talking about sobriety. No talking about how you feel about the drinking. No this. No that. In other words, we don't want the new "you" there - we want the old one. The one that stays quiet and goes along with everything, and joins in the drinking with everyone when it happens.

Firesprite, I understand what you're getting at (as well as other posters).

I will work to accept my brother where's he's at - that he has made a decision to minimize contact with my wife (and he has his reasons, whether I agree with them or not). I won't feel comfortable in that kind of relationship, so yeah, it will mean I will be minimizing my contact with my brother. I'll try not to judge him or think he's being unfair, unreasonable, or cast blame on him - he just doesn't want a relationship with my wife and is willing to let go of his relationship with me for it. It is what it is.

I wonder how this will play out when we have children. Will it then be inclusion of me and child but not wife? or, will it be inclusion of only me? Either way, I would be far less tolerant of the attitude.

PS - my wife doesn't suffer from alcoholism. I do (recovering - 2+ years). My father does (active). I suspect 2 of my siblings.

Thanks for all the thoughts.

hopeful4

I understand what you are saying, but I do also think it's really important to have that time without your wife. In that I don't think she needs to be invited to everything. Maybe after you spend some one on one time together you can help him along in seeing that a lot of what he has issues with is really a misunderstanding.

Just my .02

AnvilheadII

so thotful, i gotta wonder...since it seems EVERYONE in your family has a strong dislike for your wife...what really gives? what happened? is she a different race or religion? did she intentionally burn down their homes? i just feel there's a part of the story that's missing here.....

you've talked about this here for a while now and nobody seems to be budging from their respective positions. i think its up to YOU find BALANCE...without dragging your wife thru your families antics and without trying to make them change their minds. agree to disagree. let it go. live and let live.

SparkleKitty

Sometimes (well...most of the time) the only thing we can do is accept others exactly as they are. I personally find your siblings' behavior petty and childish. You can't control them or change them, you can only accept them and make your choices accordingly, and in the best interests of your own peace of mind. You can ride this merry-go-round forever, if you like, but if it were me, I would gently step off.

thotful

Sounds like a good idea Sparkle. Been working on detaching.

Anvilhead, I have a large family (7 siblings). There's only an issue with 3 of the siblings (not my parents, nieces, nephews, friends, co-workers, etc).

I'm not surprised that the people that are having difficulty (including one of my friends) also happen to hang out a lot (several times a week), often with lots of drinking. They are like a little "club" (reminds me of high school). Everyone else doesn't understand their issue with my wife either.

It's definitely not my wife.

I think it's far more about them and their frustrations with their relationship with me.

I will try to not take it personally.

MissFixit

Since you have a really large family, there are going to be strong differences of opinion about everything.

My 2 cents:

If they say she is welcome, then I would take them at their word. I would not expect warm fuzzies while at the event. Welcoming someone and embracing someone are two separate things. It sounds like you want your family to embrace her and several of them do not want to. That is their prerogative. Your wife also is responsible for her relationship with these people. If they feel that she is not extending herself to them that is also for them to work out.

The bottom line is that the relationship between your siblings and your wife is between them. You are affected of course, but you chose to marry someone they don't like and you choose to maintain relationships with the sibs. These have been your choices. Expecting everyone to get alone as you would like is asking too much.

MissFixit

double post

thotful

I think we're going to agree to disagree MF. We see things differently as to what I'm asking for, what I'm getting, what's abusive, etc.

lillamy

This sounds a lot like what I've heard RAs talk about with friends -- that their old friends (who are still drinking) feel uncomfortable with a now-sober former drinker coming back and... acting differently. I've heard people say their old friends seem to feel like the presence of a sober RA is like "silent judgment of the fact that they're still drinking" -- which is of course their problem, not the RA's...

It seems like you have those people, those reactions in your family. I don't know what you can do about that, other than limit your exposure to them...

MissFixit

Also, where you are in the birth order plays a big role. I'm guessing you are a younger one as the older ones usually set the tone. If little thoughtful acts and talks differently, that is uncomfortable for them. This seems more like a paradigm shift in your family's dynamic.