Adrenal fatigue and recovery....
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Adrenal fatigue and recovery....
The more I've experienced heightened anxiety, hormonal imbalance and stress response in recovery the more I have cast about trying to understand what is happening to me. Physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually.
One thing that seems increasingly likely is that the years of abusing alcohol, drugs, caffeine, sugar.... all took a toll on my body's adrenal system.
I have had a really tough time these past few months with exhaustion, stress, anxiety physical symptoms, weakness, sleep troubles, etc.
If anyone has come across credible information on the relationship between adrenal fatigue and recovery, please weigh in here.
I've been experimenting with some supplements and nutritional aspects. Seems like one really challenging thing is that once one hits a point of adrenal fatigue, it is a complex road to recovery and restoring balance.
One thing that seems increasingly likely is that the years of abusing alcohol, drugs, caffeine, sugar.... all took a toll on my body's adrenal system.
I have had a really tough time these past few months with exhaustion, stress, anxiety physical symptoms, weakness, sleep troubles, etc.
If anyone has come across credible information on the relationship between adrenal fatigue and recovery, please weigh in here.
I've been experimenting with some supplements and nutritional aspects. Seems like one really challenging thing is that once one hits a point of adrenal fatigue, it is a complex road to recovery and restoring balance.
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Hi, I'm sorry you have such a hard time with these things...
And I assume you have a good reason to know that's what you suffer from and have done medical tests etc.
Are you familiar with this book?
Adrenal Fatigue: The 21st Century Stress Syndrome: James Wilson, Jonathan V. Wright: 9781890572150: Amazon.com: Books
I don't have personal experience with adrenal fatigue, but a friend of mine apparently does and he found this book apparently very helpful. I'm thinking that after the many months of sobriety you have now, and if you do try to live and eat healthily, get proper nutrition, try to manage stress etc, it probably does not matter so much what had caused your condition in the first place. So I would focus on some kind of holistic program to get better from it - like you say, a complex road. I think any decent program of recovery is got to be complex and holistic if we expect real success with it.
And I assume you have a good reason to know that's what you suffer from and have done medical tests etc.
Are you familiar with this book?
Adrenal Fatigue: The 21st Century Stress Syndrome: James Wilson, Jonathan V. Wright: 9781890572150: Amazon.com: Books
I don't have personal experience with adrenal fatigue, but a friend of mine apparently does and he found this book apparently very helpful. I'm thinking that after the many months of sobriety you have now, and if you do try to live and eat healthily, get proper nutrition, try to manage stress etc, it probably does not matter so much what had caused your condition in the first place. So I would focus on some kind of holistic program to get better from it - like you say, a complex road. I think any decent program of recovery is got to be complex and holistic if we expect real success with it.
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There are a TON of books on the topic of Adrenal Fatigue, though I don't know specifics of relation to recovery.
One of the most popular is "Are you Tired and Wired?" by Marcelle Pick
One of the most popular is "Are you Tired and Wired?" by Marcelle Pick
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Hi FreeOwl,
I'm not sure about now, but I'm pretty sure I was suffering adrenal fatigue during my later drinking years.
One of the main signs is feeling tired during the day and then waking up late at night, when you should be winding down for sleep. Does that sound familiar?
I'm not sure about now, but I'm pretty sure I was suffering adrenal fatigue during my later drinking years.
One of the main signs is feeling tired during the day and then waking up late at night, when you should be winding down for sleep. Does that sound familiar?
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thanks all... I have no medical diagnosis of it at this point. Though I'm finding that the western medical practice is still sort of on the fence about this even being a thing.
All of the symptoms and signs seem very much in line with what's going on for me. Trying to navigate the vast array of supplements and nutrients and potential contributors is a giant pain..... and some days I wonder if any of it is 'real' or if it's just recovery, period.
However.... it logically makes sense that my body would finally just hit a wall after all the years of abuse of various chemicals and toxins and be on overload. Between drugs and alcohol and massive quantities of caffeine and ibuprofen and the like, I think maybe I reached a point that without all of those things, my body is just depleted. Things are out of balance. There's no real consistency, save for being stressed and anxious and exhausted.
Thanks for the recommendations on readings, will look into those.
All of the symptoms and signs seem very much in line with what's going on for me. Trying to navigate the vast array of supplements and nutrients and potential contributors is a giant pain..... and some days I wonder if any of it is 'real' or if it's just recovery, period.
However.... it logically makes sense that my body would finally just hit a wall after all the years of abuse of various chemicals and toxins and be on overload. Between drugs and alcohol and massive quantities of caffeine and ibuprofen and the like, I think maybe I reached a point that without all of those things, my body is just depleted. Things are out of balance. There's no real consistency, save for being stressed and anxious and exhausted.
Thanks for the recommendations on readings, will look into those.
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I'm so sorry to read you're struggling, (((((((FreeOwl)))))). It might be just a slump, maybe there's no bigger meaning to it, you know? Is your work situation still unstable? That can knock the wind out of someone like nobody's business. Take good care of yourself, and this too shall pass. 
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I had a bad episode with PAWS, and then continued bad reactions to caffeine.
Stripping my food back and doing a Whole 30 really helped me reset, and my body loved me for it. My mood and ups and downs definitely improved after I started eating clean.
Stripping my food back and doing a Whole 30 really helped me reset, and my body loved me for it. My mood and ups and downs definitely improved after I started eating clean.
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I feel the exact same way FreeOwl with the addition of dizziness that is a bit distracting. I have had a lot of blood work and hormone tests done. It seems everything is fine with the exception that my thyroid numbers have dropped. I've tried the nutrition route for quite a while, but at this point I'm just too tired to do the work involved with juicing and clean up and prepping healthful meals or exercising.
My sponsor has adrenal fatigue and is being treated for it. She was 20 years sober when it was diagnosed, though, so NOT related to recovery. One thing that seems to be a catch 22 is that working out makes adrenal fatigue worse, yet it is such a great mental stress reliever. She sees an osteopath who uses a blend of eastern/western medical approach. It is a real issue, though.
I wish you well!
My sponsor has adrenal fatigue and is being treated for it. She was 20 years sober when it was diagnosed, though, so NOT related to recovery. One thing that seems to be a catch 22 is that working out makes adrenal fatigue worse, yet it is such a great mental stress reliever. She sees an osteopath who uses a blend of eastern/western medical approach. It is a real issue, though.
I wish you well!
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This is not a recognized diagnosis. Perhaps it would be helpful to consult a physician.
There's a lot of information out there, via Dr. Google, usually connected to the sale of supplements. In the meantime, here's what Mayo Clinic says:
Adrenal fatigue is a term applied to a collection of nonspecific symptoms, such as body aches, fatigue, nervousness, sleep disturbances and digestive problems. The term often shows up in popular health books and on alternative medicine websites, but it isn't an accepted medical diagnosis.
Your adrenal glands produce a variety of hormones that are essential to life. The medical term adrenal insufficiency (Addison's disease) refers to inadequate production of one or more of these hormones as a result of an underlying disease.
Signs and symptoms of adrenal insufficiency may include:
Fatigue
Body aches
Unexplained weight loss
Low blood pressure
Lightheadedness
Loss of body hair
Skin discoloration (hyperpigmentation)
Adrenal insufficiency can be diagnosed by blood tests and special stimulation tests that show inadequate levels of adrenal hormones.
Proponents of the adrenal fatigue diagnosis claim this is a mild form of adrenal insufficiency caused by chronic stress. The unproven theory behind adrenal fatigue is that your adrenal glands are unable to keep pace with the demands of perpetual fight-or-flight arousal. As a result, they can't produce quite enough of the hormones you need to feel good. Existing blood tests, according to this theory, aren't sensitive enough to detect such a small decline in adrenal function — but your body is.
It's frustrating to have persistent symptoms your doctor can't readily explain. But accepting a medically unrecognized diagnosis from an unqualified practitioner could be worse. Unproven remedies for so-called adrenal fatigue may leave you feeling sicker, while the real cause — such as depression or fibromyalgia — continues to take its toll.
There's a lot of information out there, via Dr. Google, usually connected to the sale of supplements. In the meantime, here's what Mayo Clinic says:
Adrenal fatigue is a term applied to a collection of nonspecific symptoms, such as body aches, fatigue, nervousness, sleep disturbances and digestive problems. The term often shows up in popular health books and on alternative medicine websites, but it isn't an accepted medical diagnosis.
Your adrenal glands produce a variety of hormones that are essential to life. The medical term adrenal insufficiency (Addison's disease) refers to inadequate production of one or more of these hormones as a result of an underlying disease.
Signs and symptoms of adrenal insufficiency may include:
Fatigue
Body aches
Unexplained weight loss
Low blood pressure
Lightheadedness
Loss of body hair
Skin discoloration (hyperpigmentation)
Adrenal insufficiency can be diagnosed by blood tests and special stimulation tests that show inadequate levels of adrenal hormones.
Proponents of the adrenal fatigue diagnosis claim this is a mild form of adrenal insufficiency caused by chronic stress. The unproven theory behind adrenal fatigue is that your adrenal glands are unable to keep pace with the demands of perpetual fight-or-flight arousal. As a result, they can't produce quite enough of the hormones you need to feel good. Existing blood tests, according to this theory, aren't sensitive enough to detect such a small decline in adrenal function — but your body is.
It's frustrating to have persistent symptoms your doctor can't readily explain. But accepting a medically unrecognized diagnosis from an unqualified practitioner could be worse. Unproven remedies for so-called adrenal fatigue may leave you feeling sicker, while the real cause — such as depression or fibromyalgia — continues to take its toll.
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Join Date: Sep 2014
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I have been approaching my recovery as though my adrenals are exhausted even though you are correct that traditional medicine does not concern itself with that as yet and I think it's because there really isn't a pharmaceutical to treat it unless they aren't functioning properly. Exhausted adrenals are still functioning but the treatment is rest, nutrition and supplements.
I have worked for 15 years in a job that I allowed to stress me out while I also raised my kids alone. When I stopped drinking over 3 months ago it was because the decision was made for me.....my body was too wiped out to gain any pleasure whatsoever in drinking and it just made me feel weak and ill. I think now my adrenals were exhausted and telling me loud and clear to stop.
When I stopped drinking I was nearly bedridden for 2 months and slightly less so in the last month. Only recently I have an upward trend of better days but I get a few at a time followed by several sick days. I am definitely improving but for a long time I thought the exhaustion I was feeling was post acute withdrawal and yet many people posted how great they feel after a month or 2. This was not the case for me so I investigated further and the adrenal exhaustion just makes sense.
I know that the stress of drinking and working and carrying on with our daily lives affects our every cell. I know how busy and stressed I was for so many years. And now I'm completely wiped out and exhausted. It has been very difficult and continues to be difficult to accept that this exhaustion is happening. But I'm doing the right thing for myself and listening to my body and it's demanding rest. It has just shut me down.
I'm glad you brought this up. There is little talk of the adrenal exhaustion connection with drinking and recovering and I'm thinking it may play a bigger part in it than is in any recovery literature. And also perhaps for relapse too because some people with tired adrenals may drink more to feel better. I think I did that too. But the beginning of the end for drinking for me was total exhaustion.
I have worked for 15 years in a job that I allowed to stress me out while I also raised my kids alone. When I stopped drinking over 3 months ago it was because the decision was made for me.....my body was too wiped out to gain any pleasure whatsoever in drinking and it just made me feel weak and ill. I think now my adrenals were exhausted and telling me loud and clear to stop.
When I stopped drinking I was nearly bedridden for 2 months and slightly less so in the last month. Only recently I have an upward trend of better days but I get a few at a time followed by several sick days. I am definitely improving but for a long time I thought the exhaustion I was feeling was post acute withdrawal and yet many people posted how great they feel after a month or 2. This was not the case for me so I investigated further and the adrenal exhaustion just makes sense.
I know that the stress of drinking and working and carrying on with our daily lives affects our every cell. I know how busy and stressed I was for so many years. And now I'm completely wiped out and exhausted. It has been very difficult and continues to be difficult to accept that this exhaustion is happening. But I'm doing the right thing for myself and listening to my body and it's demanding rest. It has just shut me down.
I'm glad you brought this up. There is little talk of the adrenal exhaustion connection with drinking and recovering and I'm thinking it may play a bigger part in it than is in any recovery literature. And also perhaps for relapse too because some people with tired adrenals may drink more to feel better. I think I did that too. But the beginning of the end for drinking for me was total exhaustion.
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My head is a-pounding because I'm awake since 4am and no coffee since about 4pm yesterday. And that was a half-caff.
I am taking some herbal supplements that are meant to help with stress and adrenal support. Also magnesium and a good multivitamin.
Cutting back on caffeine and sugar is my current tactic. Also veggie juicing and trying to keep a fairly consistent blood sugar level.
My employment situation is still dodgy and unstable. I am still carrying a lot of stress over that and also experiencing an upwelling of a lot of emotional turbulence that I think is simply the emergence of long-held grief and trauma that I never really dealt with but have carried around and numbed for years.
So, it could be a lot of things. The most recent development has been the almost complete disappearance of my libido. That's very disturbing too. All of the signs and symptoms could be adrenal fatigue, could be depression, could be a half dozen terminal illnesses (according to Dr. Google of course) or could simply be the signs of a busy, stressed-out, 40-something guy in recovery and just need to wait it out.
The most frustrating thing is just not knowing. I am planning to go get some more bloodwork done and see if that reveals anything... but I don't expect it will. I'm generally quite healthy and though in my early 40s, still quite young to be having any significant physical issues causing all of this. My gut tells me it's half in my head. Brain chemistry all a-whack.
But one thing is certain; I am physically addicted to caffeine. This pounding headache and the fact that if I take excedrin (with caffeine) it's the only thing that will make it go away. I"m trying to tough it out though, because my tapering efforts just haven't worked. Yesterday I went on auto pilot to the coffee just like I used to with liquor. "What am I DOING"? - I said out loud to nobody as I poured the coffee and said "This is just DUMB. I NEED TO QUIT".....
I am taking some herbal supplements that are meant to help with stress and adrenal support. Also magnesium and a good multivitamin.
Cutting back on caffeine and sugar is my current tactic. Also veggie juicing and trying to keep a fairly consistent blood sugar level.
My employment situation is still dodgy and unstable. I am still carrying a lot of stress over that and also experiencing an upwelling of a lot of emotional turbulence that I think is simply the emergence of long-held grief and trauma that I never really dealt with but have carried around and numbed for years.
So, it could be a lot of things. The most recent development has been the almost complete disappearance of my libido. That's very disturbing too. All of the signs and symptoms could be adrenal fatigue, could be depression, could be a half dozen terminal illnesses (according to Dr. Google of course) or could simply be the signs of a busy, stressed-out, 40-something guy in recovery and just need to wait it out.
The most frustrating thing is just not knowing. I am planning to go get some more bloodwork done and see if that reveals anything... but I don't expect it will. I'm generally quite healthy and though in my early 40s, still quite young to be having any significant physical issues causing all of this. My gut tells me it's half in my head. Brain chemistry all a-whack.
But one thing is certain; I am physically addicted to caffeine. This pounding headache and the fact that if I take excedrin (with caffeine) it's the only thing that will make it go away. I"m trying to tough it out though, because my tapering efforts just haven't worked. Yesterday I went on auto pilot to the coffee just like I used to with liquor. "What am I DOING"? - I said out loud to nobody as I poured the coffee and said "This is just DUMB. I NEED TO QUIT".....
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Your PHYSICIAN can order both a 24 hour urine test and saliva tests (I think it's 4 tongue swabs through out the day) to test your hormone levels. This is really tricky and isn't the kind of thing you can easily follow on your own, it's best done by a lab.
Adrenal fatigue hits a lot during menopause.
Adrenal fatigue hits a lot during menopause.
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Originally Posted by ArtFriend 
Back when I was into this stuff, I found Julia Ross' book The Diet Cure helpful. She addresses all the things you mentioned. But she is heavy into vitamins and supplements $$$$
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No offense, but adrenal fatigue is pseudoscience used to push nutritional supplements for symptoms that are common for people in the population. I have looked into adrenal fatigue and it's built on questionable science. If you notice every single page is used to try to sell you supplement x, supplement y.
If you think your cortisol levels are not at proper levels, see a physician since this is serious.
Addison's disease Symptoms - Diseases and Conditions - Mayo Clinic
If you think your cortisol levels are not at proper levels, see a physician since this is serious.
Addison's disease Symptoms - Diseases and Conditions - Mayo Clinic
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yeah... I've been a bit skeptical as well...
trouble is, "science" doesn't seem to offer any solution or explanation for what I am experiencing.
These things I'm facing are real, and they are my body..... yet the doctor says nothing's wrong.
Bearing in mind that much of "science" began as "pseudoscience", I am keeping an open mind whilst at the same time being wary of snake oils.
Next stop is an MD who has a holistic practice combining standard western medicine with naturopathic healing. While I have a respect for 'science', I also do not dismiss natural and holistic diagnoses as being quackery. Primarily because I have actually, personally experienced their efficacy in my life. Maybe that is nothing but "placebo" effect. But.... for me, it has worked.
Much of what I read about this relatively new emergence of "adrenal fatigue" describes what I have sort of intuitively thought might be going on for some time. So, I am going to integrate some of the nutritional aspects, spiritual aspects and psychological / physical aspects into life changes to support my body / mind and spirit. It can't hurt.
trouble is, "science" doesn't seem to offer any solution or explanation for what I am experiencing.
These things I'm facing are real, and they are my body..... yet the doctor says nothing's wrong.
Bearing in mind that much of "science" began as "pseudoscience", I am keeping an open mind whilst at the same time being wary of snake oils.
Next stop is an MD who has a holistic practice combining standard western medicine with naturopathic healing. While I have a respect for 'science', I also do not dismiss natural and holistic diagnoses as being quackery. Primarily because I have actually, personally experienced their efficacy in my life. Maybe that is nothing but "placebo" effect. But.... for me, it has worked.
Much of what I read about this relatively new emergence of "adrenal fatigue" describes what I have sort of intuitively thought might be going on for some time. So, I am going to integrate some of the nutritional aspects, spiritual aspects and psychological / physical aspects into life changes to support my body / mind and spirit. It can't hurt.
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I have fibromyalgia and was diagnosed by a neurologist about 15 yrs ago.
There is more known and acknowledged about this disease now, but there certainly wasn't twenty years ago when I was trying to get drs and my family to understand that I as in pain, because I 'looked fine'.
I completely agree with your philosophy to look at adrenal fatigue in a holistic way. That is what I have done and I have found something that sustains me, for the most part. I have read, learned, tried bits of this and that and am quite happy with my success.
There is more known and acknowledged about this disease now, but there certainly wasn't twenty years ago when I was trying to get drs and my family to understand that I as in pain, because I 'looked fine'.
I completely agree with your philosophy to look at adrenal fatigue in a holistic way. That is what I have done and I have found something that sustains me, for the most part. I have read, learned, tried bits of this and that and am quite happy with my success.
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Originally Posted by FreeOwl
yeah... I've been a bit skeptical as well...
trouble is, "science" doesn't seem to offer any solution or explanation for what I am experiencing.
These things I'm facing are real, and they are my body..... yet the doctor says nothing's wrong.
Bearing in mind that much of "science" began as "pseudoscience", I am keeping an open mind whilst at the same time being wary of snake oils.
Next stop is an MD who has a holistic practice combining standard western medicine with naturopathic healing. While I have a respect for 'science', I also do not dismiss natural and holistic diagnoses as being quackery. Primarily because I have actually, personally experienced their efficacy in my life. Maybe that is nothing but "placebo" effect. But.... for me, it has worked.
Much of what I read about this relatively new emergence of "adrenal fatigue" describes what I have sort of intuitively thought might be going on for some time. So, I am going to integrate some of the nutritional aspects, spiritual aspects and psychological / physical aspects into life changes to support my body / mind and spirit. It can't hurt.
trouble is, "science" doesn't seem to offer any solution or explanation for what I am experiencing.
These things I'm facing are real, and they are my body..... yet the doctor says nothing's wrong.
Bearing in mind that much of "science" began as "pseudoscience", I am keeping an open mind whilst at the same time being wary of snake oils.
Next stop is an MD who has a holistic practice combining standard western medicine with naturopathic healing. While I have a respect for 'science', I also do not dismiss natural and holistic diagnoses as being quackery. Primarily because I have actually, personally experienced their efficacy in my life. Maybe that is nothing but "placebo" effect. But.... for me, it has worked.
Much of what I read about this relatively new emergence of "adrenal fatigue" describes what I have sort of intuitively thought might be going on for some time. So, I am going to integrate some of the nutritional aspects, spiritual aspects and psychological / physical aspects into life changes to support my body / mind and spirit. It can't hurt.
I found TREMENDOUS relief with this once I consulted an acupuncturist (I had gotten a great referral). Yes, she put me on some supplements (Standard Process brand) to help but they were short-lived as her goal is always to restore health in a way that doesn't keep me dependent on supplements. She also helped me to tweak my lifestyle to create better/healthier habits overall.
It was a long road to physical recovery because my adrenals were simply the "squeakiest wheel" - it was like dominos, all of my symptoms were co-mingled & overlapping & I didn't know where to start. My Doc couldn't really help because I didn't have a single, big event to treat. They wanted to refer me out to a network of specialists to dig deeper & that's when I put the brakes on. I couldn't see how spreading out among multiple docs was going to treat my WHOLE health so I gave the natural route a try first.
I'm really glad I was open minded enough to try because I've never, ever experienced such immediate & lasting relief as I have from these treatments. Now when my adrenals are taking a beating, I can tell because the corresponding reflex points/pressure points in my hands swell & hurt too! I've learned to "hear" by body's signals & to recognize the subtle changes that indicate something bigger lurking underneath. Good luck to you!
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thank you for sharing that. One thing that resonates for me is "pushed myself for years".
I have had an incredible amount of chronic stress for about 7 years running. It all began when my ex-wife, struggling with depression anxiety, basically became incapable of functioning. Supporting her, our daughter, a demanding full time career - and then a second child arrived. Then an international move, then the ex-wife abducting our children, then getting them back, then a protracted 2-year custody battle and divorce proceeding, then several years of single-fathering...... all while juggling a career and still supporting the jobless ex through child support and other financial repercussions. And all through that time of course just burying the emotions, stuffing the stress and coping through self-medication.... exercise.... burnout.....
So I think one thing that is going on is that in sobriety I am simply experiencing the upwelling of nearly a decade of pain and grief and stress which came after only a very brief period of happiness that came just after a long period of stress and self-medicating and grief from my previous marriage that had ended just six months before the relationship with my second wife began.
It's like I've carried nearly 20 years of grief that I threw in a sack with the grief I'd been carrying already from my childhood and now that I'm not self-medicating and have been working the steps and opening this stuff up in therapy - and also at the same time am under threat of losing my job with no real prospects and tremendous anxiety about the financial future and stability of my family - I am just deluged.
I get up and I laugh and I work and I am there for people and I'm a great father and am doing the day-to-day stuff and am 'functioning'.... but I am also just feeling a whole lot of exhaustion and weariness and sadness and other unidentifiable crapola.
Adrenal Fatigue? Emotional meltdown? Depression? Exhaustion? All of the above?
Bit by bit I'm just trying to allow it to be, while talking about it and allowing it to flow out, while taking actions to try to make changes that support processing the tough stuff and welcoming the good stuff and holding faith that it's all unfolding exactly as it should.
I have had an incredible amount of chronic stress for about 7 years running. It all began when my ex-wife, struggling with depression anxiety, basically became incapable of functioning. Supporting her, our daughter, a demanding full time career - and then a second child arrived. Then an international move, then the ex-wife abducting our children, then getting them back, then a protracted 2-year custody battle and divorce proceeding, then several years of single-fathering...... all while juggling a career and still supporting the jobless ex through child support and other financial repercussions. And all through that time of course just burying the emotions, stuffing the stress and coping through self-medication.... exercise.... burnout.....
So I think one thing that is going on is that in sobriety I am simply experiencing the upwelling of nearly a decade of pain and grief and stress which came after only a very brief period of happiness that came just after a long period of stress and self-medicating and grief from my previous marriage that had ended just six months before the relationship with my second wife began.
It's like I've carried nearly 20 years of grief that I threw in a sack with the grief I'd been carrying already from my childhood and now that I'm not self-medicating and have been working the steps and opening this stuff up in therapy - and also at the same time am under threat of losing my job with no real prospects and tremendous anxiety about the financial future and stability of my family - I am just deluged.
I get up and I laugh and I work and I am there for people and I'm a great father and am doing the day-to-day stuff and am 'functioning'.... but I am also just feeling a whole lot of exhaustion and weariness and sadness and other unidentifiable crapola.
Adrenal Fatigue? Emotional meltdown? Depression? Exhaustion? All of the above?
Bit by bit I'm just trying to allow it to be, while talking about it and allowing it to flow out, while taking actions to try to make changes that support processing the tough stuff and welcoming the good stuff and holding faith that it's all unfolding exactly as it should.
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