Congratulations
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Earth
Posts: 1,791
Congratulations
"1. You recognize that the addictive voice exists separately from you"
from Rational Recovery, The New Cure for Substance Addiction, copyright Jack Trimpey, chapter 16, Congratulations.
I don't agree with this statement verbatim, though I do find the anthropomorphization of the addictive voice very useful. I think in practice for most this is likely metaphorical. My dissonance with this statement in the book doesn't upset me, at all, but I acknowledge it.
Drinking thoughts are Beast, bad.
I want to continue to strengthen that association, to a strength that a child learns not to put his hand in a flame.
I'm sure this has been discussed, but I wanted a new thread to hear what others think on this specific point.
from Rational Recovery, The New Cure for Substance Addiction, copyright Jack Trimpey, chapter 16, Congratulations.
I don't agree with this statement verbatim, though I do find the anthropomorphization of the addictive voice very useful. I think in practice for most this is likely metaphorical. My dissonance with this statement in the book doesn't upset me, at all, but I acknowledge it.
Drinking thoughts are Beast, bad.
I want to continue to strengthen that association, to a strength that a child learns not to put his hand in a flame.
I'm sure this has been discussed, but I wanted a new thread to hear what others think on this specific point.
Self recovered Self discovered
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
I think the AV is me, it's within me, how could it be otherwise? But I have confined it to the reactive part of my brain, rather than the cognitive. I have trained my cognitive brain to recognize these thoughts and categorize them. They are not 'me' in the sense that I don't allow them to be entertained by the cognitive brain. They are not me in the sense that they are bad for me, they go against my survival needs of shelter, affection, actualization and self-respect. They are not me in the sense that I don't engage them but instead merely observe them.
I agree that part of this is an arbitrary construct, but as a tactical plan it is simple. We are already divided in our minds as a necessary characteristic of addiction. We are conflicted if you prefer that word, and that entails a dialog between opposing positions. We can achieve our goal of sobriety if we recognize, separate from and accept this AV. For that reason, I like this approach - it has shown me how to get sober and stay that way.
I strengthened my association of beast=bad by putting this in moral terms for me. I found a point of view that makes drinking immoral for me to ever do again. I think Trimpey mentions this too. I did it by acknowledging that if I were to drink, I might drive as I have done before, and put others at risk of their lives. I have a friend who lost spouse and child to a drunk driver, and I pull this possibility forward if the morality of my drinking needs review.
See if you can make your decision to be a moral one. Maybe that will be the clincher for you. There is a native American parable of the presence of two wolves within us, within all of us, that are eternally engaged in conflict. The student asked the elder, which wolf will win inside me? He was answered, 'The one you choose to feed'.
I agree that part of this is an arbitrary construct, but as a tactical plan it is simple. We are already divided in our minds as a necessary characteristic of addiction. We are conflicted if you prefer that word, and that entails a dialog between opposing positions. We can achieve our goal of sobriety if we recognize, separate from and accept this AV. For that reason, I like this approach - it has shown me how to get sober and stay that way.
I strengthened my association of beast=bad by putting this in moral terms for me. I found a point of view that makes drinking immoral for me to ever do again. I think Trimpey mentions this too. I did it by acknowledging that if I were to drink, I might drive as I have done before, and put others at risk of their lives. I have a friend who lost spouse and child to a drunk driver, and I pull this possibility forward if the morality of my drinking needs review.
See if you can make your decision to be a moral one. Maybe that will be the clincher for you. There is a native American parable of the presence of two wolves within us, within all of us, that are eternally engaged in conflict. The student asked the elder, which wolf will win inside me? He was answered, 'The one you choose to feed'.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Earth
Posts: 1,791
I agree, putting this in the morality bucket may be quite motivating for some, and I recall reading that in the book, but it wasn't elaborated on much. Not really surprising, as morality is a very imprecise and subjective term. It just conjures up an image of a nun with a ruler, or a theology teacher illustrating circular logic for me.
Your example did trigger some thought on fairness and taboo. Perhaps taboo is really my morality bucket, and I need to work on dropping alcohol use in there. It's in the neighborhood already. Thanks as always for the thoughtful reply.
Your example did trigger some thought on fairness and taboo. Perhaps taboo is really my morality bucket, and I need to work on dropping alcohol use in there. It's in the neighborhood already. Thanks as always for the thoughtful reply.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
Hi foolsgold,
You mentioned your dissonance, but I'm not clear on which part you don't agree with. Is it that the voice is separate from you?
Seeing desire, urges, or even strong emotions like sadness or anger as separate from you is not a new concept. Buddhist have held this belief for thousand of years. Much of the Buddhist literature I've read speaks of sitting and watching these feeling go by, watching them come and go as if they are separate from you. One Buddhist monk I read speaks of "taking care of our anger as a mother takes care of a child."
So, I see AVRT as a technique which runs parallel to some of the oldest techniques around.
You mentioned your dissonance, but I'm not clear on which part you don't agree with. Is it that the voice is separate from you?
Seeing desire, urges, or even strong emotions like sadness or anger as separate from you is not a new concept. Buddhist have held this belief for thousand of years. Much of the Buddhist literature I've read speaks of sitting and watching these feeling go by, watching them come and go as if they are separate from you. One Buddhist monk I read speaks of "taking care of our anger as a mother takes care of a child."
So, I see AVRT as a technique which runs parallel to some of the oldest techniques around.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Earth
Posts: 1,791
Yes, that's the dissonance. All the voices are mine, there is no external entity called the Beast that makes me want to drink, this is a dissociative technique to help manage our thought processes and behavior. I don't dispute the validity or worth of the disassociation concept.
I reopened the book to that chapter and the statement given as step 1 to whether I'd accomplished what I needed to rang, 'FALSE', to me.
This doesn't poison the concept for me, I simply wanted to see if anyone here takes that statement at face value. Some could, I won't rule that out.
I reopened the book to that chapter and the statement given as step 1 to whether I'd accomplished what I needed to rang, 'FALSE', to me.
This doesn't poison the concept for me, I simply wanted to see if anyone here takes that statement at face value. Some could, I won't rule that out.
Self recovered Self discovered
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
Originally Posted by foolsgold66 
Your example did trigger some thought on fairness and taboo. Perhaps taboo is really my morality bucket, and I need to work on dropping alcohol use in there. It's in the neighborhood already.
For me, the internal command against ever drinking again has a singular source. That is an image of the accident scene and the carnage as remembered by my friend, or the identification of the deceased, the end of a family. I have decided to tie all future consumption of alcohol to a responsibility, or a liability, or a possibility of such an event happening to someone like my friend. Maybe anathema is a better word?
By choosing that word, I guess I have accomplished that Step 1, as it implies a banishment, and a complete sanction and separation. For me, that Step 1 is 'You have chosen to recognize that the addictive voice exists separately from you'. It is an arbitrary and a voluntary construct, but for me a very effective one.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
Originally Posted by foolsgold
Yes, that's the dissonance. All the voices are mine, there is no external entity called the Beast that makes me want to drink, this is a dissociative technique to help manage our thought processes and behavior. I don't dispute the validity or worth of the disassociation concept.
Hears The Voice
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Unshackled
Posts: 7,901
Fabulous discussion. The technique of looking at my maladaptive appetite for alcohol as a separate entity has been indispensable for me to achieve extended sobriety. I can assign to it any characteristics I need in order to stimulate my desire to defeat it. Mine is a liar and a thief. It would murder me if I let it. It must be starved.
As Dumbledore said, "Of course it's all happening in your head, but why should that mean it isn't real?"
Buddha meets Harry Potter. Perfect.
As Dumbledore said, "Of course it's all happening in your head, but why should that mean it isn't real?"
Buddha meets Harry Potter. Perfect.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 43
I love it when bright people interact at this level. Personally, I look upon my AV as an evil twin who occasionally likes to kick some sand in my face. Like any inter - dynamics involving twins, I am of course better, smarter, stronger and better looking than my evil twin- therefore I win! The trick will be to maintain this position of dominance over him. Part of me- yes, but like congruent triangles- similar in all respects, but separate entities.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Earth
Posts: 1,791
I was actually worried someone might think I was being pedantic, yet when I read that statement I wanted to talk it out a bit before rewording it in my mind quite similarly to what Freshstart wrote earlier.
It's a very good chapter, really, and I was having a very positive day from waking, thus it was my choice for reading.
I can't say I've immediately thought 'get out Beast!' at every drinking thought since starting to employ AVRT, but I have had a pretty high success rate. Mindfulness and AVRT seem to go hand in hand, and I believe I still need practice at both. Perhaps I always will. But that's ok.
It's a very good chapter, really, and I was having a very positive day from waking, thus it was my choice for reading.
I can't say I've immediately thought 'get out Beast!' at every drinking thought since starting to employ AVRT, but I have had a pretty high success rate. Mindfulness and AVRT seem to go hand in hand, and I believe I still need practice at both. Perhaps I always will. But that's ok.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,474
Not the most heady observation, here, cuz I'm kinda tired.
When you recall it, there's the old 'Devil on one Shoulder and Angel on the other' in old Cartoons, and in old b/w Movies.
When you see a Wallet fall from a Gent's Pocket in front of you, what do you do? What do you fantasize about in terms of getting even with an obnoxious Neighbor or Boss or Teacher? However, what do you then actually do?
It can be argued that a sort of AV kicks up in those instances too, but we choose to do the right thing.
Apply this to not Drinking, perhaps...
When you recall it, there's the old 'Devil on one Shoulder and Angel on the other' in old Cartoons, and in old b/w Movies.
When you see a Wallet fall from a Gent's Pocket in front of you, what do you do? What do you fantasize about in terms of getting even with an obnoxious Neighbor or Boss or Teacher? However, what do you then actually do?
It can be argued that a sort of AV kicks up in those instances too, but we choose to do the right thing.
Apply this to not Drinking, perhaps...
Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wollongong NSW
Posts: 241
Originally Posted by soberlicious
Hi foolsgold, You mentioned your dissonance, but I'm not clear on which part you don't agree with. Is it that the voice is separate from you? Seeing desire, urges, or even strong emotions like sadness or anger as separate from you is not a new concept. Buddhist have held this belief for thousand of years. Much of the Buddhist literature I've read speaks of sitting and watching these feeling go by, watching them come and go as if they are separate from you. One Buddhist monk I read speaks of "taking care of our anger as a mother takes care of a child." So, I see AVRT as a technique which runs parallel to some of the oldest techniques around.
Yes it is true that part of Buddhist practice is to see and recognize that there are things that appear separate from self, however the fundamentals of buddhism are that this is an illusion and there is No separate self. The idea that there is actually something separate from you is where suffering comes from not where it ends. This is precisely why I don't take to RR, it creates and enhances these separate selfs delusions, Trimpey talks about this often his script of childhood virtues, native values and a separate self is very clear, the expression of these things are not metaphoric.
I always ask myself does using an emotive demonizing word like Beast enhance or hinder my experience to see the Non separate self. Its Equanimity that works for me not divide and conquer.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
Hi Sam,
Yes I was going to mention that the whole notion of self is moot in terms of the Buddhist perspective, but the concept of observing hinderances and not acting on them is almost identical to the AVRT paradigm.
In terms of actual application, these sometimes very complex ideas are certainly simplified. Applying the abstract idea in a concrete and useful way does require sometimes taking it down to bare bones, to something that we can actually apply in our daily lives to achieve desired results. I can talk philosophy all day long, but turning that into something I can use was critical for me.
And I agree if the technique does not work for you, don't use it. The key is mastering your mind.
Yes I was going to mention that the whole notion of self is moot in terms of the Buddhist perspective, but the concept of observing hinderances and not acting on them is almost identical to the AVRT paradigm.
In terms of actual application, these sometimes very complex ideas are certainly simplified. Applying the abstract idea in a concrete and useful way does require sometimes taking it down to bare bones, to something that we can actually apply in our daily lives to achieve desired results. I can talk philosophy all day long, but turning that into something I can use was critical for me.
And I agree if the technique does not work for you, don't use it. The key is mastering your mind.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Earth
Posts: 1,791
As politely as possible, I'll say that I don't want this thread to be about what Trimpey thinks. IMO, his work has value in bringing some old ideas together, organizing them fairly well, and presenting an alternate method that focuses on the heart of the matter of personal responsibility for breaking the addictive cycle. I referenced him to let folks know where I 'started' when I began this thread. He is a controversial personality and this thread is not about him. I'd like this thread to continue as a discussion on how members HERE view this statement and use it to defeat their addictive voice.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 129
I see the Beast as a dissociated part of myself. Yes separate and dissociated from the whole. I like that I must acknowledge the beast when she arises - first I agree that she might be feeling a certain way or wants to get high but then I immediately zap her with my non-dissociated self. It works for me to think of her as separate at this moment in time.
Not The Way way, Just the way
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: US
Posts: 1,413
"What are your plans for the future use of alcohol?"
Originally Posted by foolsgold66
"1. You recognize that the addictive voice exists separately from you"
from Rational Recovery, The New Cure for Substance Addiction, copyright Jack Trimpey, chapter 16, Congratulations.
I don't agree with this statement verbatim, though I do find the anthropomorphization of the addictive voice very useful. I think in practice for most this is likely metaphorical. My dissonance with this statement in the book doesn't upset me, at all, but I acknowledge it.
Drinking thoughts are Beast, bad.
I want to continue to strengthen that association, to a strength that a child learns not to put his hand in a flame.
I'm sure this has been discussed, but I wanted a new thread to hear what others think on this specific point.
from Rational Recovery, The New Cure for Substance Addiction, copyright Jack Trimpey, chapter 16, Congratulations.
I don't agree with this statement verbatim, though I do find the anthropomorphization of the addictive voice very useful. I think in practice for most this is likely metaphorical. My dissonance with this statement in the book doesn't upset me, at all, but I acknowledge it.
Drinking thoughts are Beast, bad.
I want to continue to strengthen that association, to a strength that a child learns not to put his hand in a flame.
I'm sure this has been discussed, but I wanted a new thread to hear what others think on this specific point.
IT anticipates ITs own death if IT cannot get YOU to re-change your mind and decide it would be right for YOU to drink sometime in the future.
With AVRT you simply continue to RECOGNIZE (and nail down with a Big Plan) that separation that first took place when you decided it was against YOUR better judgement to EVER have another drink.
YOUR relentless attack against the BEAST can always be quickly brought to the fore by recalling YOUR answer to the simple question: "What are your plans for the future use of alcohol?"
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
