Dating an alcoholic...

Old 10-19-2014, 09:43 PM
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Question Dating an alcoholic...

This is going to be kind of hard for me to explain but I will try. R has been in recovery this time and is 9 months sober. He lives in a sober house right now. He has been in many recovery places prior to meeting me. He has been an alcoholic for as long as he can remember. He has been married a couple times but he has never been a violent alcoholic. With that said, He seems like he has his ducks in a row right now. What freaks me out at times is how he can talk about drinking and how much he could drink in one sitting. He doesn't talk about this in front of my daughter (Thank the Lord). But at times this kind of talk makes me uncomfortable. We have been seeing each other for nearly 2 months now. I know its a really new relationship. He/We have been going slow because that is what he wants. He says he can't just jump into things. He is taking one thing at a time. I get that too. I am ok with the slow relationship, it's different but nice for me. I don't feel used.
Problem is he is so super quiet at times. Though he is sometimes just ready to talk about all that he has gone though, like it's a medal of honor. This kind of makes me uncomfortable.
I want to love this guy. He is kind to me and my daughter. He wants to do things outside and have fun...walks, pumpkin patch, frisbee, anything until the snow flies around here. It's great having someone to just have adult conversations with. K and I have been single mom and daughter for 11 years. I have been running into some problems with K being sometimes rude and angry at him. I think this is normal....she is having this change with a man in the house every once in a while. He does back up what I say.
How do I love this guy and not get caught up in his stuff. To me, he seems like a dry drunk. I don't know. (I am studying to be a drug and alcohol counsleor). What's next for me?
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Old 10-20-2014, 05:01 AM
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Originally Posted by jewelsmn View Post
I want to love this guy.

How do I love this guy and not get caught up in his stuff. To me, he seems like a dry drunk.
If you are seeing red flags only 2 months into a relationship, please pay attention! Don't ignore your intuition here. This thread might be useful: http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...red-flags.html

You say you "want to love him." This sounds odd to me. If you're having to force the feeling of love, having to convince yourself that you love him, that is also a huge red flag. What is it you are really looking for? Security? Help w/your relationship w/your daughter? An A with less than a year of recovery, and a shaky-appearing recovery at that, is not likely to provide either one of those things, or much of anything else good.

Quite simply, jewelsmn, if he is not the man you want him to be right now, right this second, there is no reason to believe he will somehow become that man somewhere down the road. As is said here often, he is not his potential; he is who he is showing up as. And who he is showing up as, is someone who makes you uncomfortable. Ask yourself why you'd press on in the face of that...

Reading as much as you can here on SR will give you a perspective that I don't think you can get from your classes on what it's actually like to live w/an A. I hope you can make some time to do that.

Wishing you strength and clarity.
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Old 10-20-2014, 05:21 AM
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If you are studying to become a drug and alcohol counselor then you should know better than most what you are up against here.

The reason he talks about his past drinking specifically with pride like its a 'medal of honor" is because that is his history, that is what he has to talk about. You may talk about other experiences, and certainly he has had other experiences, but as a lifetime alcoholic his experiences revolved around, well, being drunk. He probably doesn't remember half his life.

When you love ANY guy you get caught up in their stuff. All people have "stuff", that's a part of all relationships. I don't see a way for you not to get caught up in it all.

You got some serious red flags here - multiple marriages, multiple rehabs, in sober living, and by your own account a dry drunk. Please pay attention to the flags - you have a daughter, do you need to bring this drama into both your lives? I get it that he is a nice guy but this is a MAJOR project.
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Old 10-20-2014, 06:45 AM
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One thing I learned about myself recently, is that when I find someone sexy and exciting, they are ALWAYS 100% of the time, an addict.
I don't ignore this red flag any more!
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Old 10-20-2014, 07:09 AM
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Most of the time, it's suggested to addicts that they not enter into any kind of new relationships until they have been sober for at least a year. There's a reason for this: Recovery is a full-time job.

I see red flags all over the place here -- and it sounds like you more want to take care of him (and help him change) than enter into an equal relationship between two adults. That's another big red flag for me.

As part of your training, have you undergone therapy yourself? I'm asking because a lot of people going into therapeutic professions have codependent tendencies. And if you don't work yourself out of those, you'll burn out in a month in that kind of job.
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Old 10-20-2014, 07:43 AM
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Hi Jewels

I wouldn't myself, get involved with an alcoholic.

I know too well what they are like...... I am one

All the best with your decision.
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Old 10-20-2014, 07:57 AM
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Jewel,
You are very smart for reaching out to friends and family... Boy the people here can tell you stories of their addicts. I am sorry to say but most of them are not pretty. We all hurt and are healing from what they have done to us. I think each of us would run, if we were in your new shoes with an addict. As Amy stated above, the addict should not be getting involved in a new relationship for one year, working a program, so he is not even following recommendations. A's are selfish people when they drink and when they are working a program, no doubt about it.

You have to understand addicts love one thing and one thing only, their drugs or alcohol. We will always be second to them until they are sober and work a program for a long time, and that isn't even a guarantee. If this relationship was meant to be give him is space to work his program, you join alanon and see how to work your program and see what happens in 6 months.

If it was me, I would run and run fast. I am only speaking from 34 years of with an addict. Good luck to you and keep coming back!!
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Old 10-20-2014, 08:00 AM
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Kids understand more than we think. Not sure you can just dismiss this as her being jealous of your new relationship.
I disliked my stepmom. Not because I was jealous of their relationship, which she and my alcoholic father both decided was the cause, but because I saw how much being with her changed his personality. He was enthralled with her and their relationship was a very typical enmeshed alcoholic/codependent dance (she had alcohol and food issues and they were very codependent on one another). He began treating my brother and me as second class citizens in order to prove his love and loyalty to her because we were reminders that he'd been married before (she had too, three times, but that never got brought up, oddly enough). Her daughter lived with them full time and was treated like an only child. My dad was over the top nice to her while verbally and physically abusing his own children.
Not saying that you are going to that extreme, but it sounds like this relationship is causing you to change you standards.
If I may ask, why are you so sure that this barely-recovering, dry-drunk alcoholic is ideal relationship material for you? Because he is nice to you and likes to do things outside? I think you can find a sober man who meets those criteria. What is it that is truly attracting you to this man?
He wants to go slow, if it were up to you what would the pace be? Sounds like you are eager to jump into this fiasco with both feet. Why?
Sorry if this is harsh, but I did the same thing in my last relationship, which was with an alcoholic. He ended up treating my oldest son like dirt after being really nice to him in the beginning. I ignored the red flags and dove right into it, so I am speaking from my own bitter experience.
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Old 10-20-2014, 08:04 AM
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Hi Jewel,

Since you are not that invested in him right now (2 months), it might be a good idea to take a look at why you are willing to enter into a relationship with someone who has so may problems. These are not small annoying habits, but rather fundamental personality and functioning issues that he has been and will be dealing with forever. There are a lot of red flags in your post.

Alcoholics are amazing charmers, especially early on in a relationship. He is giving you lots of information about how messed up he is. That is fortunate for you, because you have this information now rather than later.
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Old 10-20-2014, 08:43 AM
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Like everyone else I see huge red flags in this, most of all that your own instinct is causing you to question the wisdom of this relationship.

A lifetime alcoholic, multiple marriages and rehabs, a dry drunk who speaks with pride of his alcoholic past - all huge red flags.

I totally understand that you want this to work out and there are some good qualities to this guy. That he wants to go slow is one of them. Go very, very slow and LISTEN to your instincts, which seem to be saying to forget him. He doesn't talk with pride about his past in front of your daughter YET. What would you do if he did?

Good luck to you.
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Old 10-20-2014, 08:53 AM
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I just had to come back to this because... I wanted to tell you part of my story.

My entire life, I fell for men who needed me. I had learned from an early age that putting other people's needs above my own was praiseworthy and good. It wasn't like these men were homeless cats that I put up -- they definitely had their attractive sides -- but at the bottom of it all was this: they made me feel valuable because I helped them. One was clinically depressed, two were alcoholics, one was a drug addict -- and the main part of our relationship consisted of me trying to love them out of their problem. I thought they had a problem. They didn't. So it was really hard work. Sort of trying to drag a resisting mule to the cart so it could help pull.

After a long marriage to an alcoholic, and eight years in recovery (me, not him -- he's still drinking and we're no longer married), I am now in a good relationship. And the thing that's so remarkable to me is how easy it is. When I want to say something, I open my mouth and say it. I no longer sit in the car on my way home planning on the perfect way to say what I'm thinking so that I don't upset him. When I want something, I say I want it. When I want to say no, I say no. There's no longer that painful, dragged-out process of analyzing how my words and behavior might affect him (which then in turn will affect me and the kids).

I was almost 50 before I had a normal relationship with a man, one where we treat each other as equals. I have to say it's way preferable to picking up someone and trying to change them into the person I'd like them to be...
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Old 10-20-2014, 09:12 AM
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Wow Amy, maybe one day I could achieve a "normal" relationship. After 34 years with crazy, I am staying the hell away from another relationship.

Thanks for sharing and still coming back to help all the people here. We so need to see healthy people with healthy relationships. This is what we want to achieve some day!!!
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Old 10-20-2014, 10:02 AM
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Hi Maia

Im about 3/4 way through a book called "A return to Love "
By Marianne Williamson.

Amazing book.

In a nutshell the book is about changing your own self love (to a healthy level, not narcissistic)
And in doing so.... We get emotionally charged up and healed and healthy.... This attracts the same in other people.

There's a bit more to the book, but that's pretty much it on the relationship side of things.
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Old 10-20-2014, 03:29 PM
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I feel compelled to respond to this statement:

"You have to understand addicts love one thing and one thing only, their drugs or alcohol."

I am an addict and an alcoholic, and have been in and out of recovery through my lifetime. I am not a perfect partner by any means, but have also been a loving, hard-working, kind mother and partner, both in and out of recovery. There are many different kinds of people who get into drug and alcohol abuse. Many of us have never been violent, are thoughtful and romantic, are bright and educated, and make extraordinary efforts to continue to grow. Besides much energy given to recovery work through my life, I have also done a good bit of therapy, lots of reading and writing, etc.

I am not perfect, but - honestly - I am no more "dysfunctional" in relationship than, well, most of the folks posting here. I post here too, working on my issues of codependency.

Addicts and alcoholics are struggling with physical dependency and a form of mental illness, but we are capable of love. With the same continuum of that capacity as the general population.

I say this because I not only know myself, but know many other alcoholics - both in the world and in recovery. There are angry, brutal, selfish alcoholics and there are overly-sensitive, damaged, quiet alcoholics. There are low bottom drunks (who take it all the way - to health damage, and family destruction, and institutionalization), and there are high functioning alcoholics who find recovery before they get anywhere close to those stages. My alcoholism is counted in the glasses of red wine that I drank every night or in the too many cold beers. Not good for me, no. Not good for my body. A "checking out" - the easy way out of pressure and tension and ambition. But - in recovery - I'm pretty fabulous (and although I hesitate to say it here - I think I was a darn good partner while drinking too - I had different negative impacts on my life, primarily my health).

So, the very good questions posed have to do with how this person is treating you right now. How you enjoy their company right now. What your gut tells you about this right now. Most importantly, if the dynamic in the relationship is causing you to not be true to yourself or you feel that you are giving parts of yourself away, then it is not a positive relationship. That could happen whether or not the potential partner is an alcoholic.

I see so many express here the fervent desire that their beloved alcoholic will seek recovery and really do the work. Some of us do. I think that many of us turn into extraordinary people.

As to the one year "rule." Although this is oft-repeated, it is a recent "suggestion" that is thrown around the aa program. It is only a suggestion. It is not part of any of the original literature (not mentioned in the big book) and was not at all a part of aa until relatively recently. I think it is a grand idea to fully focus on recovery for a year, but many folks successfully get sober while involved in pre-existing relationship, like a marriage, that they came in with (and which may be very damaged and cause a great deal of additional stress). One of the issues that the one year "rule" seeks to address is that if two newcomers to recovery get together, they are both juggling lots of feelings, and may trigger some crazy in each other. If the relationship fails, one or both may be embarrassed/awkward about returning to their meetings. Additionally, if a recovering alcoholic dates a moderate drinker early on, the pressure of dating (or that person's lifestyle) could encourage a return to alcohol.

If a recovering person gets involved in a healthy relationship with someone who communicates with them and supports their recovery (ie. not drinking around them, giving them lots of time and space to attend meetings and therapy), there is no universal wisdom that this will inhibit their capacity to recover. For many, it might make them stronger.

Loneliness doesn't make recovery "deeper." Additionally, destiny is a mysterious thing, and we just don't know when we will actually meet and fall in love with the right person.

Finally, if you're uncomfortable enough about the situation that you are posting on the co-dependent forum, I support your worry that this might not be right for you. At the very least, I hope that you'll feel confident and received talking about these exact concerns directly with your potential sweetheart.
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Old 10-20-2014, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by heartcore View Post
I feel compelled to respond to this statement:

"You have to understand addicts love one thing and one thing only, their drugs or alcohol."

I am an addict and an alcoholic, and have been in and out of recovery through my lifetime. I am not a perfect partner by any means, but have also been a loving, hard-working, kind mother and partner, both in and out of recovery. There are many different kinds of people who get into drug and alcohol abuse. Many of us have never been violent, are thoughtful and romantic, are bright and educated, and make extraordinary efforts to continue to grow. Besides much energy given to recovery work through my life, I have also done a good bit of therapy, lots of reading and writing, etc.

I am not perfect, but - honestly - I am no more "dysfunctional" in relationship than, well, most of the folks posting here. I post here too, working on my issues of codependency.

Addicts and alcoholics are struggling with physical dependency and a form of mental illness, but we are capable of love. With the same continuum of that capacity as the general population.

I say this because I not only know myself, but know many other alcoholics - both in the world and in recovery. There are angry, brutal, selfish alcoholics and there are overly-sensitive, damaged, quiet alcoholics. There are low bottom drunks (who take it all the way - to health damage, and family destruction, and institutionalization), and there are high functioning alcoholics who find recovery before they get anywhere close to those stages. My alcoholism is counted in the glasses of red wine that I drank every night or in the too many cold beers. Not good for me, no. Not good for my body. A "checking out" - the easy way out of pressure and tension and ambition. But - in recovery - I'm pretty fabulous (and although I hesitate to say it here - I think I was a darn good partner while drinking too - I had different negative impacts on my life, primarily my health).

So, the very good questions posed have to do with how this person is treating you right now. How you enjoy their company right now. What your gut tells you about this right now. Most importantly, if the dynamic in the relationship is causing you to not be true to yourself or you feel that you are giving parts of yourself away, then it is not a positive relationship. That could happen whether or not the potential partner is an alcoholic.

I see so many express here the fervent desire that their beloved alcoholic will seek recovery and really do the work. Some of us do. I think that many of us turn into extraordinary people.

As to the one year "rule." Although this is oft-repeated, it is a recent "suggestion" that is thrown around the aa program. It is only a suggestion. It is not part of any of the original literature (not mentioned in the big book) and was not at all a part of aa until relatively recently. I think it is a grand idea to fully focus on recovery for a year, but many folks successfully get sober while involved in pre-existing relationship, like a marriage, that they came in with (and which may be very damaged and cause a great deal of additional stress). One of the issues that the one year "rule" seeks to address is that if two newcomers to recovery get together, they are both juggling lots of feelings, and may trigger some crazy in each other. If the relationship fails, one or both may be embarrassed/awkward about returning to their meetings. Additionally, if a recovering alcoholic dates a moderate drinker early on, the pressure of dating (or that person's lifestyle) could encourage a return to alcohol.

If a recovering person gets involved in a healthy relationship with someone who communicates with them and supports their recovery (ie. not drinking around them, giving them lots of time and space to attend meetings and therapy), there is no universal wisdom that this will inhibit their capacity to recover. For many, it might make them stronger.

Loneliness doesn't make recovery "deeper." Additionally, destiny is a mysterious thing, and we just don't know when we will actually meet and fall in love with the right person.

Finally, if you're uncomfortable enough about the situation that you are posting on the co-dependent forum, I support your worry that this might not be right for you. At the very least, I hope that you'll feel confident and received talking about these exact concerns directly with your potential sweetheart.
Hi Heartcore,

I mean this with respect, but I disagree with what you write about alcoholics and love. There are no absolutes, but active A's or A's really struggling with taking responsibility (as seems the case in the original post) are not quite capable of unselfish love. Maybe down the road, but not while in the midst of addiction or white knuckling. You cannot be both able to love in a healthy way and be in denial about your disease and the effects to others. Doesn't add up.

Also, I have heard the wait to change your relationship status advice since 2006, and even then the people who told me had known for years. Even a psychiatrist friend told me that. So, I do not think the wait a year thing is recent.

I mean this with kindness, but since this is the friends and family section, we are usually looking at things from how to help the codie, which means leave the A to their own devices. This is a new poster and sometimes looking at things from the A perspective can be confusing until they have a grasp of what is going on with their own codie thinking.
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Old 10-20-2014, 04:16 PM
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With all due respect, heartcore, I don't think the posts here have denigrated the possibility of ever having a good relationship with a recovered alcoholic. I think they are reflecting directly on the information that Jewelsmn gives us in her post.

Instead, I think Jewelsmn describes some pretty serious red flags. Lots of good advice already on this thread.

Here are the red flags:

R has been in recovery this time and is 9 months sober.

He lives in a sober house right now.

He has been in many recovery places prior to meeting me.

He has been an alcoholic for as long as he can remember.

He has been married a couple times

but he has never been a violent alcoholic. And we know that, how?

What freaks me out at times is how he can talk about drinking and how much he could drink in one sitting. He doesn't talk about this in front of my daughter (Thank the Lord). But at times this kind of talk makes me uncomfortable.

like it's a medal of honor. This kind of makes me uncomfortable.

We have been seeing each other for nearly 2 months now.

Problem is he is so super quiet at times.

I want to love this guy.

I have been running into some problems with K being sometimes rude and angry at him.

How do I love this guy and not get caught up in his stuff.

To me, he seems like a dry drunk.

I don't know. (I am studying to be a drug and alcohol counsleor). What's next for me?

There is precious little in the OP (original post) that suggests that gentleman in question has ever sustained a long term recovery. Multiple marriages have failed. He has been drunk most of his life and in and out of multiple rehabs. He is not yet living independently. He talks, when he talks, about his addiction and high level of drinking; that suggests that he hasn't emerged from the cocoon of alcoholism and early recovery enough to have established his own recovered functional life, as the comment about seeming like a "dry drunk" suggests.

And I agree wholeheartedly with ladyscribbler about Jewel's daughter's reaction. Her daughter's feelings should be explored, not pushed away because "it is to be expected" because Jewel has started dating. The truth is this man is someone who is not yet recovered and functional and has no history of many if any successful relationships, let alone with the daughter of a gf.

Heartcore, it seems to me that you will be more persuasive in convincing those of us who have had devastating and heart wrenching experiences with alcoholics that some alcoholics in recovery are worth being in relationship with if you look more closely at the specifics in the case. This is not a case I'd want to stake my future on.

I don't mean to be too harsh. I just know, from my experience, that my XAH thought everything was just fine, he was a great step-dad, lover, husband and all of it when it was mainly denial that kept him from seeing how he affected people and that kept him from course correcting his behavior. Read my post on the Crucible, and it will tell where my mind set comes from.

One thing we have to all weigh is where our key accountabilities and responsibilities are, and my choice would to be honor the daughter and protect her from an unnecessary exposure to this. The upside potential is slim and the downside is huge.

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Old 10-20-2014, 04:29 PM
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Thanks for your post, Heartcore.
I have to say candidly, that if you were a good partner before you got into recovery, you are one in a million. Everyone I have ever known who has been with an active addict experiences profound and lasting pain.
I also question the idea of "fate" deciding who we marry. I believe we choose our partners, either consciously or otherwise. Personally, I can see my own choosing an alcoholic ties directly to my upbringing in an addictive household.
I am happy for you that you have found sobriety, and wish you every success!
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Old 10-20-2014, 04:52 PM
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Ms. FixIt, Shooting Star, & Eauchiche -

I receive all your feedback with an open heart. I recognize that - in general - we are talking about the capacity of an active A to love, and I agree that this is, more times than not, profoundly limited by their obsession.

I was speaking more to the OP, which referred to a recovering A who appears to be actively engaged in that recovery. Many, many addicts and alcoholics choose to not pursue recovery, regardless of the harm they are doing to loved ones. Those who are truly committed to recovery are doing a tremendous amount of self searching, and within that journey are absolutely capable of love.

I may have missed something, but beyond sharing drunk-a-log stories which made the poster feel uncomfortable, I didn't hear of any additional specifically negative behaviors in the OP, except that of being an alcoholic in recovery. This tendency toward "story-telling" as a way to communicate is often emphasized in recovery programs. My hope would be that she can simply tell him that these stories make her uncomfortable, and he can respond by honoring her request or not, which will reveal much.

Anyway, I appreciate the grace with which you disagreed, and hope that I can both hear you and be graceful in my messaging. It just makes me sad that sometimes an active addict and one in recovery (which as we know is a brave journey that takes an incredible amount of strength and willingness to undertake) are considered as a single "type."

PS. As to the "recent" development of the one year without relationship suggestion - I meant that in a historical context. AA developed in the 1930s, so even if that advice has been around for 20 years, it is not part of the program itself, but is a suggestion of some of its members. Suggestions are often quite wise, but they are not part of the official "program" of AA.
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Old 10-20-2014, 05:13 PM
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Dating an alcoholic...

Dear Group,
.
Which would be better? Dropping one big rock on five of my toes at once, or going more slowly and reasonably and dropping one rock on each toe one at time?

Please do not tell me to not drop rocks on my toes, I am In Love with the Rock.

Looking forward to your advice and answers. Thank you!



Joking. But not really.
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Old 10-20-2014, 05:25 PM
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Heartbreak, we are about supporting the friends and family of the alcoholic here. The alcoholic can find support in his own program. This individual has known her qualifier for only 2 months. She is recognizing red flags. It is not her job to make him whole. She has 2 children to take care of. To advance the alcoholic's interests over her own strikes me as downright cruel. I can only wish that I had recognized the red flags before having my own life turned upside down.....
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