question for you who have so much experience

Old 10-03-2014, 12:26 PM
  # 1 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
MsGrace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 280
question for you who have so much experience

I divorced my a husband 3 years ago...worked the steps, have done a TON of personal growth work outside of Al Anon, in additon to it, and have no contact at all with him. So far so good?

I'm in a serious relationship with a delightful man and we have a wonderful relationship. I love and am loved by his mom, and when together, we are highly compatible. He's responsible, caring, funny and accomplished. He's also been in Al Anon for a year, and in couples counseling with me.

AND

He comes with an 8 year old, and he has a co-parenting agreement with an active alcoholic ex wife. She and the child live in another state. He went back to court to try to prevent her from moving him out of state, but was unsuccessful. Ex wife is with her family who are all alcoholic as well.

I'm old enough to have an 8 year old grandkid, for one, and a permanent arrangement with another alcoholic that loves to hand grenade every conversation and create as much chaos as she possibly can makes me sick. Yes, I'm having to decide if this relationship and all the wonderful things it is, is worth the huge baggage it comes with. We would have this child with us all summer, and spring break and once a month and most holidays.

I need some perspective from the loving souls here. I've gotten so so much help here...I'm here again. Yes I started with the question...what is it about me that attracted another addict into my life? Perhaps I just haven't learned all I need to...
MsGrace is offline  
Old 10-03-2014, 12:36 PM
  # 2 (permalink)  
Member
 
lillamy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: right here, right now
Posts: 6,516
Honestly?

If you don't love the dysfunctional 8-year-old and can't imagine co-parenting when he's with you, then this relationship is not for you.

Harsh? Probably. But also honest. Because a kid who comes from an alcoholic home needs security and love, and if you can't provide that, you won't be the step parent he needs. He needs one healthy home, and if that's beyond what you can manage for him on breaks, break it off with his dad. Because no matter how much you try, if your heart isn't in it, if you see him as a burden -- trust me, he will feel it.

I'm saying that coming from a situation where I have offered my husband several times to separate because I feel like loading my kids-with-baggage on him is more than I could possibly ask of any human being. He says "the kids are part of you, and I want all of you." And he stays.

I don't see you as a bad person for questioning whether you can handle this 8-year-old. I see my husband as friggin Superman. If the tables had been turned, if he had come with kids with as many problems as the ones mine have -- I would have loved having a relationship with him without his children. And of course, he wouldn't have wanted a relationship with a woman who couldn't handle his kids.

I see how incredibly needy and hurt my children are, and how nothing is ever enough for them. They are like little black holes of neediness, and they're everything from just vile to ignoring their stepdad at times. I cringe every time. And it also affects my self-confidence. Because I think "no way am I worth taking all that crap for"...

I think it's a perfectly sane question to ask -- do I have the capacity to take on this hurt and harmed child? -- and it's perfectly OK to answer the question with a NO. I guess the question I would ask myself is "Is the relationship with this man worth my really honestly working hard at helping out his kids during the time he is with us?"
lillamy is offline  
Old 10-03-2014, 12:47 PM
  # 3 (permalink)  
Member
 
AnvilheadII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
hmmmmm, i see you mentioning the CHILD almost as an after thought and focusing entirely on the ex wife. and then you lump them both into the HUGE BAGGAGE category.

if that is the mindset you had about MY kid, i'd hope you'd be honest with me and then recuse yourself.

it's ok to not want to deal with somebody else's children and somebody else's drama. no matter how nice some of the other parts of the package area, it's an ALL IN or go home proposition.
AnvilheadII is offline  
Old 10-03-2014, 12:54 PM
  # 4 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
MsGrace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 280
Originally Posted by lillamy View Post
Honestly?

If you don't love the dysfunctional 8-year-old and can't imagine co-parenting when he's with you, then this relationship is not for you.

Harsh? Probably. But also honest. Because a kid who comes from an alcoholic home needs security and love, and if you can't provide that, you won't be the step parent he needs. He needs one healthy home, and if that's beyond what you can manage for him on breaks, break it off with his dad. Because no matter how much you try, if your heart isn't in it, if you see him as a burden -- trust me, he will feel it.

I'm saying that coming from a situation where I have offered my husband several times to separate because I feel like loading my kids-with-baggage on him is more than I could possibly ask of any human being. He says "the kids are part of you, and I want all of you." And he stays.

I don't see you as a bad person for questioning whether you can handle this 8-year-old. I see my husband as friggin Superman. If the tables had been turned, if he had come with kids with as many problems as the ones mine have -- I would have loved having a relationship with him without his children. And of course, he wouldn't have wanted a relationship with a woman who couldn't handle his kids.

I see how incredibly needy and hurt my children are, and how nothing is ever enough for them. They are like little black holes of neediness, and they're everything from just vile to ignoring their stepdad at times. I cringe every time. And it also affects my self-confidence. Because I think "no way am I worth taking all that crap for"...

I think it's a perfectly sane question to ask -- do I have the capacity to take on this hurt and harmed child? -- and it's perfectly OK to answer the question with a NO. I guess the question I would ask myself is "Is the relationship with this man worth my really honestly working hard at helping out his kids during the time he is with us?"
Thanks for your comments and you are right of course. We have chosen to NOT get me involved with this child until we can figure it out. We both felt it wasn't fair to him to drag him through our relationship and possible breakup. So we've both done the sacrificial thing so far, and I just don't see him when he has his son. I think I'm needing to feel like our lives won't be constant chaos with her...before I can decide to take it on. But we've dated for a year, and it's time to decide if it's workable...or move on.
MsGrace is offline  
Old 10-03-2014, 01:12 PM
  # 5 (permalink)  
Member
 
hopeful4's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 13,560
I have an 8 year old. The thing is, they don't need people coming in and out of their lives, especially this poor child who has enough unstability. When you marry a person, you marry their child also. You also take on the issues with that child and need to be able to form a bond with that child.

Good luck!
hopeful4 is offline  
Old 10-03-2014, 01:38 PM
  # 6 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
MsGrace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 280
Originally Posted by hopeful4 View Post
I have an 8 year old. The thing is, they don't need people coming in and out of their lives, especially this poor child who has enough unstability. When you marry a person, you marry their child also. You also take on the issues with that child and need to be able to form a bond with that child.

Good luck!
I'm very well aware of all of this...your comments are all appreciated, but not really what I was asking. As I mentioned previously...we've both chosen NOT to have me involved with the child until we both are resolved that the situation is manageable and acceptable (by me) and we have the resources to do a good job. We are in couples counseling. We are being as responsible as we can be before we involve the child in any of it.

My question was more along the lines of how do I get to the right decision so I CAN be clear this is a role I'm willing to take on? Perhaps because so much is unknowable it's been very hard for me to get to my own deep truth about it. I don't know that it would be...but looking into a future of perpetual crisis management does not look like what I'd like for whatever time I have left on the planet. I can't possibly know what specific challenges the child himself will have...I don't know him at this point. He seems delightful from what I know of him through his dad...and also likely to have alcoholic damage as well. I'm likely asking the impossible unknowable questions....so nevermind. I'm probably still traumatized by my own AH so thinking of stepping anywhere into this arena again seems pretty awful to me. I'm open to see this differently...but I'm just not there yet.
MsGrace is offline  
Old 10-03-2014, 01:57 PM
  # 7 (permalink)  
Member
 
lillamy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: right here, right now
Posts: 6,516
how do I get to the right decision so I CAN be clear this is a role I'm willing to take on?
I think that's very difficult to know.

looking into a future of perpetual crisis management does not look like what I'd like for whatever time I have left on the planet. I can't possibly know what specific challenges the child himself will have...I don't know him at this point.
When I read this, I totally understand that you are hesitant. I would be, too. Heck, I don't even understand how I'm gonna put up with my own kids some days, and I gave birth to the buggers.

You don't know what challenges this child will present. You don't know what joys either. You don't know what challenges life will present. And I think there may be such a thing as fearing challenges so much that we cut ourselves off from the possibility of joy?

I've found that I'm so afraid of more pain that I avoid a lot of things because I don't want more pain.

I still think that it's perfectly OK to say you can't take this on -- but I would also hate for you to give up on a good relationship out of fear of something that may or may not happen?

It's a bit like (excuse the comparison) adopting an abused dog, you know you'll likely have problems with the dog at least initially. But you can get a purebred dog from a reputable breeder and the dog can get hit by a car or develop brain cancer or something -- and then you'll still have a problem. Do you think you're afraid of "losing control" over your life now that you've finally arrived at a place of peace and serenity?

I know I'm not helping but I totally understand where you're coming from.
lillamy is offline  
Old 10-03-2014, 02:02 PM
  # 8 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
MsGrace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 280
Originally Posted by lillamy View Post
I think that's very difficult to know.



When I read this, I totally understand that you are hesitant. I would be, too. Heck, I don't even understand how I'm gonna put up with my own kids some days, and I gave birth to the buggers.

You don't know what challenges this child will present. You don't know what joys either. You don't know what challenges life will present. And I think there may be such a thing as fearing challenges so much that we cut ourselves off from the possibility of joy?

I've found that I'm so afraid of more pain that I avoid a lot of things because I don't want more pain.

I still think that it's perfectly OK to say you can't take this on -- but I would also hate for you to give up on a good relationship out of fear of something that may or may not happen?

It's a bit like (excuse the comparison) adopting an abused dog, you know you'll likely have problems with the dog at least initially. But you can get a purebred dog from a reputable breeder and the dog can get hit by a car or develop brain cancer or something -- and then you'll still have a problem. Do you think you're afraid of "losing control" over your life now that you've finally arrived at a place of peace and serenity?

I know I'm not helping but I totally understand where you're coming from.
you know what lilamy?? You totally helped me..thank you for this. You are right of course. I also found an article in the stickys that said the same thing (how to make a no-lose decision) It is coming to terms with my own deep fear of suffering again...but in thinking only of that...I don't allow for all the wonderful delightful joys that could come of this and the chance to grown in a completely different way. We don't get to chose only one experience in life...we risk big and play big...or retreat into our fears and miss both good and bad but not really live. Thank you for your wisdom...so helpful!!!
MsGrace is offline  
Old 10-03-2014, 02:11 PM
  # 9 (permalink)  
Member
 
lillamy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: right here, right now
Posts: 6,516
we risk big and play big...or retreat into our fears and miss both good and bad but not really live.
No, thank YOU.
You know, the stuff that rolls around in my head doesn't help me. But hearing that from you actually helped me decide that I can do that -- go big or go home. And I've never been one to go home...

Good luck with your decisions!!! ((hugs))
lillamy is offline  
Old 10-03-2014, 02:17 PM
  # 10 (permalink)  
Member
 
hopeful4's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 13,560
I am sorry, I did not read into your question enough.

I think the best thing I can do is give you an example of some of the issues my 8yr old is experiencing due to alcoholism/broken marriage between parents (however I am the primary custodial parent):

Anxiety
Easily upset stomach
Attachment issues
Some problems engaging with others
OCD
Isolation
Trust Issues
Fear

I have divorced my XAH, but he is still involved in their lives. For now he remains sober around them. I doubt that will last long as alcoholism is progressive. That is when the problems will really start, because that is when the fight will start to keep them away from him. I am aware a whole new amount of issues will crop up when and if that happens.

I can say that a child who has been moved away from his father, who now resides with an active alcoholic mother, and is around active alcoholic family, will likely have some great issues. How awfully sad. I am wondering if said child was court ordered to be in counseling or receives any counseling? I know that has been a very real help for my children.

The joys of my children outweigh any negative issues I could be having by a million. However, these are my children, so I realize that is different.

My sister and her husband won custody of her step son away from his toxic, bipolar mother. When he became of age, he moved back to his mother. She was a famous manipulator and guilted him into coming back, made suicide threats, etc. It was horribly sad for my sister and her husband. My sister is not able to have children, so this was her only "son." She does have some issues in dealing with this happening.

I don't know if this will help at all. I think the answers will come with a lot of time and observation on your part.

I wish you the best of luck no matter what future decisions you may make!
hopeful4 is offline  
Old 10-03-2014, 02:18 PM
  # 11 (permalink)  
Member
 
BunnyNest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 220
Originally Posted by MsGrace View Post
Thanks for your comments and you are right of course. We have chosen to NOT get me involved with this child until we can figure it out. We both felt it wasn't fair to him to drag him through our relationship and possible breakup. So we've both done the sacrificial thing so far, and I just don't see him when he has his son. I think I'm needing to feel like our lives won't be constant chaos with her...before I can decide to take it on. But we've dated for a year, and it's time to decide if it's workable...or move on.
I think you two made a great decision.

I took on a lot, when I was very young, with my husbands's child and extended family. I wish I had the wisdom and knowledge of Alanon and SR back then. It was so difficult and I'm shocked our marriage survived. I did so much wrong, had no boundaries and was over-involved. You and your guy have a great foundation already.

I know my role now is just to 100% unconditionally love that child (even though he is now grown!). It is my husbands job to deal with all the other junk, including the extended family. I of course support him, but my job is just to love the kiddo. And that has been great for me and great for the kiddo. I get all the fun actually.

Keep in mind that there may be a disconnect with you and the child because you haven't met. It probably is difficult to see them as an individual that is separate from the chaos of their mom.

Only you can decide. Can you maintain your boundaries and will he support those boundaries? I think a great counselor would be so beneficial.

Good luck!
BunnyNest is offline  
Old 10-03-2014, 02:35 PM
  # 12 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
MsGrace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 280
bless all of you for sharing your heart and wisdom. Yes...we are both committed to counseling so we make sure we can have the support we need to make good decisions and if we do...establish a stable, loving supportive alternative home for this boy. The boundary issue is a big one. Defining exactly the role I would play for the boy...and letting my man take what is his to do. It is exactly why we chose the path we have. Counseling first and long term. THEN when we are clear, we introduce this boy into a home and a plan that has...to the best of our abilities, worked out the bugs before he gets here. Life itself brings bugs. I do have another fear that a very troubled teenager will land on our door in a few years...out of control and ours to deal with. I have to be prepared for all of it. You know this man has to be really good stuff to even consider this...at retirement age. haha!!
MsGrace is offline  
Old 10-03-2014, 02:45 PM
  # 13 (permalink)  
Member
 
Eauchiche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,790
Dear Grace
What an insightful, intelligent lady you are. I'm sure there must be many more situations out there similar to yours, where they just threw caution to the wind and plunged on ahead.
It seems you are being very careful and thoughtful about the future.

I think it is important to remember that you are not limited to just two choices: being alone or ending up with this gentleman. I also sense that you are a little concerned about your age differences. Maybe this is important even if a child were not involved?

Thanks again. I wish you all the best!
Eauchiche is offline  
Old 10-03-2014, 02:50 PM
  # 14 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
MsGrace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 280
well I am 7 years older..we are both older. That's not really the issue..but he did have this child "by surprise" very late in life, and when his marriage was already in some trouble
MsGrace is offline  
Old 10-06-2014, 08:26 AM
  # 15 (permalink)  
Member
 
hopeful4's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 13,560
You sound very insightful and in tune to the challenges and are taking the right steps. I dare say that this child, after the adjustment period, may find it a relief to have a normal women in his life without addiction issues and all that comes with that.

God Bless!
hopeful4 is offline  
Old 10-06-2014, 12:10 PM
  # 16 (permalink)  
Bunnies!
 
NWGRITS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,905
As a child of an alcoholic, it's hard to sit here and think "Good, do people think we're all horrible monsters? Are we lumped in the feral child category?" I can say with certainty that my AM's ex (may he rest in peace) was the only relatively healthy person in my life at a time when I needed it most. Yes, he eventually left her, but it was her drinking that did it, not me. I loved him. talked to me and did things with me that I enjoyed. He always encouraged me to do my best and overcome my circumstances. I only wish I had longer with him before he died of heart failure.

Instead of thinking about how awful this kid probably will be and stressing about his mother (who is NOT your partner), why not consider all the good you could bring to him? You could be just what he needs to heal and recover.
NWGRITS is offline  
Old 10-06-2014, 08:08 PM
  # 17 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
MsGrace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 280
Instead of thinking about how awful this kid probably will be and stressing about his mother (who is NOT your partner), why not consider all the good you could bring to him? You could be just what he needs to heal and recover.[/QUOTE]

Oh my, I don't ever think how awful he will be...I don't even know him! I think a clearer statement of the issue I'm grappling with is this: I have a right to choose how I want to live the last third of my life...or however much I have left. If and when I pick that person, his circumstances come with him. In this case...I get to decide if this situation is right for me in its entirety. I envisioned this stage of life as retirement....not going back into child rearing mode. By the time that child goes to college...I'll be 75 years old. I'm easily old enough to have an 8 year old grandchild. My child is grown and thriving. And I get to choose. I'd better choose wisely....but I absolutely get to choose. I came here to gain perspective and insight...and SR never ever fails me. I want to consider every part of this...some parts I can't see myself. Thank you for your comments!
MsGrace is offline  
Old 10-07-2014, 05:15 AM
  # 18 (permalink)  
Member
 
redatlanta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: atlanta, ga
Posts: 3,581
All relationships have baggage if you are older than 25.

How much hassle is your BF having to put up with now? Is he having to deal with constant chaos? Sometime chaos?

Honestly I think before you can decide you need to spend some time with the child. I hear what others are saying about not bringing a person into a child's life that will later leave and I get that to a point, but how are you supposed to decide when you haven't even been around it? Couldn't you just be introduced as a friend rather than girlfriend?

I couldn't make this decision without getting some one on one time and see what the interaction is like with the ex.
redatlanta is offline  
Old 10-07-2014, 06:26 AM
  # 19 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
MsGrace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 280
Boy you said a lot there and I have to agree with all of it. There is no bigger path for personal evolution than in relationship...it calls forth every bit of who we are along with our wounds. Gary Zukav wrote a book I love called "Spiritual Partnership" here is what he has to say:

“The new female and the new male are partners on a journey of spiritual growth. They want to make the journey. Their love and trust keep them together. Their intuition guides them. They consult with each other. They are friends. They laugh a lot. They are equals. That is what a spiritual partnership is: a partnership between equals for the purpose of spiritual growth.”
~ Gary Zukav
This is what is possible...the most effective way to evolve. This is possible with the man I'm with. By all means, it is easier to remain single. When single, we don't have to do the work...the accountability, the responsibility, the chance to have my own ******** called...and to work through it. And I don't take that chance lightly. In my experience, very few men have been able AND willing to stand in that fire with me to come to understanding, and a greater place of intimacy.

And yes, that dear soul comes with an almost unimaginable amount of difficult baggage. The cross in the road, for SURE. Thank you dear soul for sharing your perspective!
MsGrace is offline  
Old 10-07-2014, 06:39 AM
  # 20 (permalink)  
Member
 
ardy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: milwaukee wi
Posts: 3,574
Originally Posted by MsGrace View Post
I divorced my a husband 3 years ago...worked the steps, have done a TON of personal growth work outside of Al Anon, in additon to it, and have no contact at all with him. So far so good?

I'm in a serious relationship with a delightful man and we have a wonderful relationship. I love and am loved by his mom, and when together, we are highly compatible. He's responsible, caring, funny and accomplished. He's also been in Al Anon for a year, and in couples counseling with me.

AND

He comes with an 8 year old, and he has a co-parenting agreement with an active alcoholic ex wife. She and the child live in another state. He went back to court to try to prevent her from moving him out of state, but was unsuccessful. Ex wife is with her family who are all alcoholic as well.

I'm old enough to have an 8 year old grandkid, for one, and a permanent arrangement with another alcoholic that loves to hand grenade every conversation and create as much chaos as she possibly can makes me sick. Yes, I'm having to decide if this relationship and all the wonderful things it is, is worth the huge baggage it comes with. We would have this child with us all summer, and spring break and once a month and most holidays.

I need some perspective from the loving souls here. I've gotten so so much help here...I'm here again. Yes I started with the question...what is it about me that attracted another addict into my life? Perhaps I just haven't learned all I need to...
mm first prayers and time and do you want to be with this man forever. really FOREVER...my hubby Ed has a son Justin.. he was 15 .. when Ed and I started seeing each other and then moved in together .. Justin hated me.. my Daughter Melanie was 20 in her second year of college .. walked the kid into a wall one night and let him have it.. Justiin did drugs and booze ... Ed got sick and was in the hospital ( we do that a lot in 22 years) Justin never batted an eye lash... I kicked him out to his Moms.. well that was back in the 1990's.. I must have done something right in the first couple of years with that terror of the deep .. for he is married has 3 little ones.. is a firefighter and EMT... yep.. and drinks Blue Berry Beer. ahhahah my favorite from back in the day... we saw them about a year ago Grandpa Ed and the 3 little ones Asher Aimee and Madison.. the Grandmother Susie (1st wife ) has made it hard for us to see them.. But Justin held me tight that Christmas and said in my ear Ardy what would we do without you.. Thank you Mrs. Richter.. yep I need a tissue.. point maybe when you have the 8 year old.. he needs to see a better life.. to know the difference between Mom and Dad and new family in another state.. its hard kiddo.. and sometimes all you can do for years is pray and cry and pray.. Stand tall hold the high ground and keep trying.....
ardy is offline  

Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:59 AM.