Not that it is a surprise, but kind of panicking.
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Not that it is a surprise, but kind of panicking.
Sorry, everyone. I lurk here and read often, but do not post often, but something happened and I just have to get this out of my brain so my chest won't explode.
I just engaged in some very un-Al Anon, very anti-1st step behavior and along with looking in his bag for bottles (check) alao looked at AH's internet history while he was sleeping. I didn't know I could (thought his laptop had a password). A couple months ago I posted here about the lack of intimacy, that he doesn't touch me, isn't affectionate, doesn't initiate with me. Well, I saw that yes he looks at porn. In fact, right when I left to pick up dinner tonight! My panic is, I also saw links to "hookup" sites, but they were listed in the history just once as the main page, whereas all the other links were more multiple.
This is probably a very naive post, and probably very old-hat for a lot of you. I understand that people (men AND women) do this, in fact i have before, but that it's a *replacement* of me...while he drinks and sits alone. Sometimes first thing in the morning, which explains the times he's encouraged me to "go back to sleep and get some more rest!"
We're young, early 30s. I've been very hesitant and unsure about his alcoholism, because I don't feel comfortable "diagnosing" him. I just feel like I'm seeing more pieces of the puzzle that say this - this is not a relationship. Shocking, I can't have a relationship with my potentially A H?
There has been some pretty unacceptable s*#8, but this just has me feeling so rejected. Infidelity is my boundary, and if it's crossed then I know I have to leave. I just don't know what to do. It's been hard enough living with what i think is alcoholism, having a roommate essentially who spends his time in the other room with the door mostly closed, drinking and not engaging with me.
I just engaged in some very un-Al Anon, very anti-1st step behavior and along with looking in his bag for bottles (check) alao looked at AH's internet history while he was sleeping. I didn't know I could (thought his laptop had a password). A couple months ago I posted here about the lack of intimacy, that he doesn't touch me, isn't affectionate, doesn't initiate with me. Well, I saw that yes he looks at porn. In fact, right when I left to pick up dinner tonight! My panic is, I also saw links to "hookup" sites, but they were listed in the history just once as the main page, whereas all the other links were more multiple.
This is probably a very naive post, and probably very old-hat for a lot of you. I understand that people (men AND women) do this, in fact i have before, but that it's a *replacement* of me...while he drinks and sits alone. Sometimes first thing in the morning, which explains the times he's encouraged me to "go back to sleep and get some more rest!"
We're young, early 30s. I've been very hesitant and unsure about his alcoholism, because I don't feel comfortable "diagnosing" him. I just feel like I'm seeing more pieces of the puzzle that say this - this is not a relationship. Shocking, I can't have a relationship with my potentially A H?
There has been some pretty unacceptable s*#8, but this just has me feeling so rejected. Infidelity is my boundary, and if it's crossed then I know I have to leave. I just don't know what to do. It's been hard enough living with what i think is alcoholism, having a roommate essentially who spends his time in the other room with the door mostly closed, drinking and not engaging with me.
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Are you legally married to this man or just engaged?
At this point I would say a "diagnosis" of alcoholism isn't necessary - the relationship is unfulfilling on every level. From reading your posts back to last year IMO he is an alcoholic.
He also does not engage you, doesn't talk to you, you have no sexual relationship - as you stated in another thread you are roommates. He has turned to a computer for his intimate needs. This is infidelity. Don't fool yourself that you only saw one hookup site, when I see statements like that it is a rationalization of the behavior and a downplaying of it. You have no idea what he is really doing. I am sure your home computer is not the only computer this man has access to certainly he also has a phone as well and it can be hard to find a history in them.
That you have no idea what he is really doing is scary. The basis of a healthy relationship is trust and I don't see it here - but then again he has spelled out for you how he views your relationship…...Here is a quote from a thread you started in July……...
"he researched it and came to the conclusion that he isn't an alcoholic, to outright saying he doesn't have a problem - it's my problem, and if I don't like it I can leave".
This statement is much more than denial - it is a very honest opinion of how he views your relationship. He will do whatever he wants and if you don't like it leave. Harsh - but at least he was honest with you and isn't bothering to manipulate you into thinking otherwise. So believe him - cause its true.
So how to proceed from here. I think you are putting all the focus on AH and his behavior and spinning your wheels on how to change it. Change the focus to your behavior and you will get somewhere because you can't change him. Stop the snooping, you already know. Stop trying to figure out why he doesn't want sex its not changing. Stop trying to determine if he is alcoholic - he is or at the very least a serious problem drinker. Stop trying to figure out if he is physically cheating on you - he is cheating with his affair with booze and porn.
Now is the time to start asking yourself "what about me and what do I want out of my life"? Is this ^^^^^^what you want? I don't think so.
What are your thoughts on leaving this relationship and why haven't you? Those are the questions you need to figure out.
At this point I would say a "diagnosis" of alcoholism isn't necessary - the relationship is unfulfilling on every level. From reading your posts back to last year IMO he is an alcoholic.
He also does not engage you, doesn't talk to you, you have no sexual relationship - as you stated in another thread you are roommates. He has turned to a computer for his intimate needs. This is infidelity. Don't fool yourself that you only saw one hookup site, when I see statements like that it is a rationalization of the behavior and a downplaying of it. You have no idea what he is really doing. I am sure your home computer is not the only computer this man has access to certainly he also has a phone as well and it can be hard to find a history in them.
That you have no idea what he is really doing is scary. The basis of a healthy relationship is trust and I don't see it here - but then again he has spelled out for you how he views your relationship…...Here is a quote from a thread you started in July……...
"he researched it and came to the conclusion that he isn't an alcoholic, to outright saying he doesn't have a problem - it's my problem, and if I don't like it I can leave".
This statement is much more than denial - it is a very honest opinion of how he views your relationship. He will do whatever he wants and if you don't like it leave. Harsh - but at least he was honest with you and isn't bothering to manipulate you into thinking otherwise. So believe him - cause its true.
So how to proceed from here. I think you are putting all the focus on AH and his behavior and spinning your wheels on how to change it. Change the focus to your behavior and you will get somewhere because you can't change him. Stop the snooping, you already know. Stop trying to figure out why he doesn't want sex its not changing. Stop trying to determine if he is alcoholic - he is or at the very least a serious problem drinker. Stop trying to figure out if he is physically cheating on you - he is cheating with his affair with booze and porn.
Now is the time to start asking yourself "what about me and what do I want out of my life"? Is this ^^^^^^what you want? I don't think so.
What are your thoughts on leaving this relationship and why haven't you? Those are the questions you need to figure out.
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I offer up to you for whatever they aren't worth quotes to consider:
1.) From (showing my age here) the movie "When Harry Met Sally" from Marie who is involved with a married man:
Marie: I don't think he's ever going to leave her.
Sally: Nobody thinks he's never going to leave her.
Marie: You're right, you're right. I know you're right.
You are Marie. The situations are different but the sentiment is the same.
2.) Step one from the recovery program I've embraced, "Women for Sobriety" which turn a few words around and it applies to every person involved with an addict and a choice you can make
"I have a life-threatening problem that once had me.
I now take charge of my life and my disease. I accept the responsibility." Your disease may not be alcohol but rather co-dependency that is robbing you of a fulfilling life. What to do about it? Consider this step for whatever its worth. It personally speaks volumes to me.
3.) From "Drinking: A Love Story" (Caroline Knapp) after she is sober and is reflecting upon life after alcohol
“Do you sit there entrenched in inertia…or do you get off the darned (*word changed here) porch and do something?”
Extricating yourself from inertia ain't easy, ain't fun, but life as it stands isn't going to change on its own. When and if to change the status quo will be up to you. I'm sorry if I'm coming across harshly here but needed to give you my two cents and my own food for thought.
Peace,
Cookies
1.) From (showing my age here) the movie "When Harry Met Sally" from Marie who is involved with a married man:
Marie: I don't think he's ever going to leave her.
Sally: Nobody thinks he's never going to leave her.
Marie: You're right, you're right. I know you're right.
You are Marie. The situations are different but the sentiment is the same.
2.) Step one from the recovery program I've embraced, "Women for Sobriety" which turn a few words around and it applies to every person involved with an addict and a choice you can make
"I have a life-threatening problem that once had me.
I now take charge of my life and my disease. I accept the responsibility." Your disease may not be alcohol but rather co-dependency that is robbing you of a fulfilling life. What to do about it? Consider this step for whatever its worth. It personally speaks volumes to me.
3.) From "Drinking: A Love Story" (Caroline Knapp) after she is sober and is reflecting upon life after alcohol
“Do you sit there entrenched in inertia…or do you get off the darned (*word changed here) porch and do something?”
Extricating yourself from inertia ain't easy, ain't fun, but life as it stands isn't going to change on its own. When and if to change the status quo will be up to you. I'm sorry if I'm coming across harshly here but needed to give you my two cents and my own food for thought.
Peace,
Cookies
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Forget what he can be diagnosed with by a professional.
He's drinking more than you are comfortable with and behaving in ways you find acceptable. He's looking at porn, which you find to be a replacement for the intimacy in your relationship.
What is there left to hold on to?
You don't need him to agree that he's an alcoholic and it's better if you separate.
You don't need anyone to agree that you have the right to leave.
All you have to do is determine what you would like to do. You have an absolute right to make choices about what you want to do with your life.
He's drinking more than you are comfortable with and behaving in ways you find acceptable. He's looking at porn, which you find to be a replacement for the intimacy in your relationship.
What is there left to hold on to?
You don't need him to agree that he's an alcoholic and it's better if you separate.
You don't need anyone to agree that you have the right to leave.
All you have to do is determine what you would like to do. You have an absolute right to make choices about what you want to do with your life.
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Tonight-
It was an affair that my hubby had that got me dealing with the reality that alcohol had been in my marriage the whole time.
I don't know if they are linked. I do know that they both made me FEEL crazy, like I was the problem etc. I was working my own recovery at the time and blamed a lot of the problems on myself.
My own recovery though finally started to give me perspective that there was a critical difference between my eating disorder and whatever was happening with my loved one.
I was willing to name it, bring it out in the open and work on it.
Finally my recovery helped me to see that though I might not be able to "diagnosis" my loved one I did have a say over how that behavior affected and impacted me. I walked on eggshells around his alcohol use a long time. Something snapped in me about the affair and I did not struggle with that in the same way.
So what kind of support do you have for you? I had to get my feet under me before I could tackle the relationship.
It was an affair that my hubby had that got me dealing with the reality that alcohol had been in my marriage the whole time.
I don't know if they are linked. I do know that they both made me FEEL crazy, like I was the problem etc. I was working my own recovery at the time and blamed a lot of the problems on myself.
My own recovery though finally started to give me perspective that there was a critical difference between my eating disorder and whatever was happening with my loved one.
I was willing to name it, bring it out in the open and work on it.
Finally my recovery helped me to see that though I might not be able to "diagnosis" my loved one I did have a say over how that behavior affected and impacted me. I walked on eggshells around his alcohol use a long time. Something snapped in me about the affair and I did not struggle with that in the same way.
So what kind of support do you have for you? I had to get my feet under me before I could tackle the relationship.
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Thank you so much for your responses, all very good points.
RedAtlanta, I didn't mean to rationalize. I have some IT experience and know that popups can register on histories, as well as things that aren't even seen (redirect links, other crap). I was just trying not to catastrophize until I had more information - then I can lose it. Ugh, bad joke. Yes we are married. What am I holding on to? The past maybe...it's hard for me to accept that the person I thought I was married to, the person I met and loved is gone. When I think back to the good times, the times of closeness. Yes there was drinking too (this was LONG before I thought there was any alcohol problem, and if it did occur to me I just had no clue what I was dealing with) and the abuse was here and there, but with apologies. Since those have stopped, and have instead become justifications (as the years have gone by and the disease has progressed?) it's been harder to live with, as I'm sure you've all experienced.
Also to your other point RedAtlanta - there was a physical episode after he had told me that if I didn't like his drinking I could leave. After that episode he e-mailed me saying he saw how much his anxiety, depression and daily drinking had gotten out of control. At the time I was so angry, I didn't proactively engage in any kind of recovery discussion with him, and now I am dealing with the incredible guilt and want to go back in time and say, I appreciate you acknowledging this, I would love to talk to you more about this in person. At the time he was staying away from our house. Instead, I enjoyed watching him be punished. And now I would do anything to see that kind of interest in saving our marriage. SO, part of me thinks maybe he was coming around. Since then it's just been more denials of the drinking problem - instead of admitting anything he denies it completely, says the hidden bottles are old, etc.
Cookiesncream - love WHMS, a classic. And you made me laugh, thank you. No, he won't change if he doesn't want to. I keep telling myself it's not that I'm not good enough, it has nothing to do with me. Which damn that just PISSES ME OFF that it doesn't. I've extricated myself from the inertia by focusing on me in certain ways, and that has helped tremendously. Thank you, I didn't think you were harsh at all.
Lilamy - yes, thank you thank you so much. "You don't need him to agree that he's an alcoholic and it's better if you separate. You don't need anyone to agree that you have the right to leave." I think that's a huge part of it. That I will be in the wrong if/when I leave. He's so successful, everyone thinks he's great. He doesn't have the problem, clearly I do. That's a huge hangup for me. What's behind closed doors that people don't see, that he will go on in his life and be happy with someone else and treat them the way I deserved this whole time - drinking or no drinking. Maybe if I do something that's good enough, it could be me? Yup. Codependent alright.
I've been going to Alanon meetings, working on myself...I'm just in incredible pain that is absolutely gutting me. The rejection is extremely hard to bear. On some level I'm being ridiculous - how many other people here do I read about that have gone through almost the exact same situation, treating someone so nicely and in return nothing? That I think it would be any different for me is a mixture of denial and arrogance.
RedAtlanta, I didn't mean to rationalize. I have some IT experience and know that popups can register on histories, as well as things that aren't even seen (redirect links, other crap). I was just trying not to catastrophize until I had more information - then I can lose it. Ugh, bad joke. Yes we are married. What am I holding on to? The past maybe...it's hard for me to accept that the person I thought I was married to, the person I met and loved is gone. When I think back to the good times, the times of closeness. Yes there was drinking too (this was LONG before I thought there was any alcohol problem, and if it did occur to me I just had no clue what I was dealing with) and the abuse was here and there, but with apologies. Since those have stopped, and have instead become justifications (as the years have gone by and the disease has progressed?) it's been harder to live with, as I'm sure you've all experienced.
Also to your other point RedAtlanta - there was a physical episode after he had told me that if I didn't like his drinking I could leave. After that episode he e-mailed me saying he saw how much his anxiety, depression and daily drinking had gotten out of control. At the time I was so angry, I didn't proactively engage in any kind of recovery discussion with him, and now I am dealing with the incredible guilt and want to go back in time and say, I appreciate you acknowledging this, I would love to talk to you more about this in person. At the time he was staying away from our house. Instead, I enjoyed watching him be punished. And now I would do anything to see that kind of interest in saving our marriage. SO, part of me thinks maybe he was coming around. Since then it's just been more denials of the drinking problem - instead of admitting anything he denies it completely, says the hidden bottles are old, etc.
Cookiesncream - love WHMS, a classic. And you made me laugh, thank you. No, he won't change if he doesn't want to. I keep telling myself it's not that I'm not good enough, it has nothing to do with me. Which damn that just PISSES ME OFF that it doesn't. I've extricated myself from the inertia by focusing on me in certain ways, and that has helped tremendously. Thank you, I didn't think you were harsh at all.
Lilamy - yes, thank you thank you so much. "You don't need him to agree that he's an alcoholic and it's better if you separate. You don't need anyone to agree that you have the right to leave." I think that's a huge part of it. That I will be in the wrong if/when I leave. He's so successful, everyone thinks he's great. He doesn't have the problem, clearly I do. That's a huge hangup for me. What's behind closed doors that people don't see, that he will go on in his life and be happy with someone else and treat them the way I deserved this whole time - drinking or no drinking. Maybe if I do something that's good enough, it could be me? Yup. Codependent alright.
I've been going to Alanon meetings, working on myself...I'm just in incredible pain that is absolutely gutting me. The rejection is extremely hard to bear. On some level I'm being ridiculous - how many other people here do I read about that have gone through almost the exact same situation, treating someone so nicely and in return nothing? That I think it would be any different for me is a mixture of denial and arrogance.
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Originally Posted by LifeRecovery 
Tonight-
Finally my recovery helped me to see that though I might not be able to "diagnosis" my loved one I did have a say over how that behavior affected and impacted me. I walked on eggshells around his alcohol use a long time. Something snapped in me about the affair and I did not struggle with that in the same way.
So what kind of support do you have for you? I had to get my feet under me before I could tackle the relationship.
Finally my recovery helped me to see that though I might not be able to "diagnosis" my loved one I did have a say over how that behavior affected and impacted me. I walked on eggshells around his alcohol use a long time. Something snapped in me about the affair and I did not struggle with that in the same way.
So what kind of support do you have for you? I had to get my feet under me before I could tackle the relationship.
Support...Alanon is a big one. It's so comforting being around people who get it. We're not in close proximity to my family and friends, or his for that matter. So that's tough. I'm also working on having my own income. As I've posted previously, he controls the finances and I have no access to them.
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I think that's a huge part of it. That I will be in the wrong if/when I leave. He's so successful, everyone thinks he's great. He doesn't have the problem, clearly I do. That's a huge hangup for me. What's behind closed doors that people don't see,
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My AM was considered so wonderful by everyone, so successful. Hearing people talk about her that way made me want to vomit because I knew the truth. But they all found out the truth when my grandmother moved out of her house and everything promptly went to hell. And then her house was auctioned off on the courthouse steps last month. They can't keep up appearances forever.
FWIW, this isn't about your marriage. People are so concerned about preserving the marriage. Preserve your own existence first. The marriage is the LAST thing you need to be worrying about. Marriage doesn't define who you are. Clinging to an abusive alcoholic for the sake of staying married is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard of. You deserve so much better than this. If he refuses to get help FOR HIMSELF, then there is no chance your marriage will be saved (why would you want to stay married to someone who watches porn, anyway? That is a complete separate issue from alcoholism.). You can't save it yourself, and he has no interest in it. Let it go. Even if you had talked to him back then when he "admitted" he had a problem, it probably wouldn't have done any good. That would have been pinning his recovery on YOUR behavior. No bueno. Not your responsibility.
FWIW, this isn't about your marriage. People are so concerned about preserving the marriage. Preserve your own existence first. The marriage is the LAST thing you need to be worrying about. Marriage doesn't define who you are. Clinging to an abusive alcoholic for the sake of staying married is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard of. You deserve so much better than this. If he refuses to get help FOR HIMSELF, then there is no chance your marriage will be saved (why would you want to stay married to someone who watches porn, anyway? That is a complete separate issue from alcoholism.). You can't save it yourself, and he has no interest in it. Let it go. Even if you had talked to him back then when he "admitted" he had a problem, it probably wouldn't have done any good. That would have been pinning his recovery on YOUR behavior. No bueno. Not your responsibility.
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Anvilhead - sorry, got it. Yes you're right. It's not good enough for me. I'm trying to deprogram the really horrible insecurity and worthlessness I feel, so that I can fully grasp that.
Nwgrits - It took me a while to see how much of myself I've lost. In conversations now I'm quiet where I used to be very talkative, that happy joyous and free feeling that I remember. So yes, must preserve my own existence or re-learn what that means, who I am. Currently I'm fighting the urge to scrape together what meager $ I have to hire a PI. It would be painful as hell, but at the same time extremely satisfying if he is up to something to be able to say "Ah HAH!" And then, goodbye.
That aside, everything you've all said is true. Even if that's not the case it doesn't matter, the loneliness and feeling as if I work for him is getting too much to bear.
Nwgrits - It took me a while to see how much of myself I've lost. In conversations now I'm quiet where I used to be very talkative, that happy joyous and free feeling that I remember. So yes, must preserve my own existence or re-learn what that means, who I am. Currently I'm fighting the urge to scrape together what meager $ I have to hire a PI. It would be painful as hell, but at the same time extremely satisfying if he is up to something to be able to say "Ah HAH!" And then, goodbye.
That aside, everything you've all said is true. Even if that's not the case it doesn't matter, the loneliness and feeling as if I work for him is getting too much to bear.
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Tonight, tonight, what would a PI tell you that you don't already know? Just the specifics, extent, that kind of detail; but you KNOW that he is not your partner, not your lover, not your friend, not your confidante.
This comes, I believe, from doubting yourself and doubting what you know. And that is a side effect of abuse. If you haven't read English Garden's stickie "What Abuse Is", take a look at it. My story is there, and I stayed with my alcoholic porn addicted brilliant husband for far too long and suffered almost the loss of myself.
I hear what you are saying. The best thing I did for myself was to leave him, and spend the subsequent two years rediscovering who I am and gradually understanding the depth of the abuse I was enduring. When I was where you are now, really comprehending his alcoholism and porn addiction for the first time, I couldn't thoroughly digest what people here were saying about how bad the abuse was.
What you are describing is abuse. You are suffering from abuse. You do not have to worry about whether something you did or didn't do years ago might have made him behave differently. If he had wanted to, he would have.
Now is time for you to sort out what YOU need, and only you. His life is his, and it is time for your life to be yours.
ShootingStar1
This comes, I believe, from doubting yourself and doubting what you know. And that is a side effect of abuse. If you haven't read English Garden's stickie "What Abuse Is", take a look at it. My story is there, and I stayed with my alcoholic porn addicted brilliant husband for far too long and suffered almost the loss of myself.
I hear what you are saying. The best thing I did for myself was to leave him, and spend the subsequent two years rediscovering who I am and gradually understanding the depth of the abuse I was enduring. When I was where you are now, really comprehending his alcoholism and porn addiction for the first time, I couldn't thoroughly digest what people here were saying about how bad the abuse was.
What you are describing is abuse. You are suffering from abuse. You do not have to worry about whether something you did or didn't do years ago might have made him behave differently. If he had wanted to, he would have.
Now is time for you to sort out what YOU need, and only you. His life is his, and it is time for your life to be yours.
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Thanks ShootingStar. I've read so many of your well-written posts here. My brain is such a mess that I get frustrated with my own inability to accurately describe my feelings and experience.
I will read that sticky again. Oh there's been plenty of abuse of all kinds, but lately it's more the ambivalent variety, or hurtful things that kind of dismiss me but aren't outright verbal abuse - that he doesn't like to be around me, that he wants a divorce, that he has no reason to be here, I am not his wife (?) and that he doesn't love me. Then the next day at the airport? "I'll miss you, I love you." Then back to start. And expecting all the niceties I provide and the occasional disproportionate, irrational rage.
There are plenty of reasons I could leave aside from the alcoholism, which I hoped was the main event so to speak, and getting sober would mean we could stay together and have a family. But then I've heard too many stories here and in alanon and I'm pretty sure with our cocktail of addiction/codependent dysfunction, we would end up with at least one addict child. Anyway I digress!
There is a tape playing in my head and I would like it to stop. I'm afraid that if/when I leave the tape will play louder, or new things ("you failed! He wins at life!") and the pain will kill me. I'm mostly afraid of the pain. Thank you all so much for being here.
I will read that sticky again. Oh there's been plenty of abuse of all kinds, but lately it's more the ambivalent variety, or hurtful things that kind of dismiss me but aren't outright verbal abuse - that he doesn't like to be around me, that he wants a divorce, that he has no reason to be here, I am not his wife (?) and that he doesn't love me. Then the next day at the airport? "I'll miss you, I love you." Then back to start. And expecting all the niceties I provide and the occasional disproportionate, irrational rage.
There are plenty of reasons I could leave aside from the alcoholism, which I hoped was the main event so to speak, and getting sober would mean we could stay together and have a family. But then I've heard too many stories here and in alanon and I'm pretty sure with our cocktail of addiction/codependent dysfunction, we would end up with at least one addict child. Anyway I digress!
There is a tape playing in my head and I would like it to stop. I'm afraid that if/when I leave the tape will play louder, or new things ("you failed! He wins at life!") and the pain will kill me. I'm mostly afraid of the pain. Thank you all so much for being here.
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Tonight Tonight, I can relate to your situation. But if I were you, I would save the money you would spend on hiring a PI and put it toward yourself. You don't need the AHA I caught you reason to leave. You can leave because you are not happy and don't have to put up with an alcoholic who isolates and thinks only of himself. I know you are at a low point and I have been there. But putting distance between you and him will help you find your way back. Your self esteem will return and you can begin to heal from all the damage. More importantly you will learn how to keep the focus on yourself and what your needs are. To hell with his! Let him do what is going to do with or without you and start building a life for you. It takes time but one day you will be like..."hey, I can do this!" and be happier in the long run. Just my honest opinion and advice here because I have been there. Take what you want and leave the rest. I wish you peace and clarity. 
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