CodeJob

I saw this last week and meant to post as a fair number here deal with narcissistic traits.

How to identify a narcissist with one simple question - LA Times

Am I A Narcissist? - TIME

Timetoheal12

I'm a psychology student, so I still don't hold a grade to diagnose anyone, but as far as my studies are now, yes. Alcoholics do share a lot of traits with narcissists.
I have a professor who once told us that this case is similar to the philosophic question of "what went first, the chicken or the egg?"
One cannot know what was first... If pathological narcissism or alcoholism.


This is indeed an interesting topic.

Stung

Man this is a tough topic for me. My mom is a classic narcissist. I think I am one too but my counselor and other ACONs that I know assure me that I'm not simply because I question whether I am or not. (If I told my mom that she had ANYTHING wrong with her she would absolutely stomp on me. Because I'm the LAST person who should be judging others. Ugh.)

Here is the thing about being the child of a narc, NPD parents project all of their poor qualities on to you (if you're the scapegoat child, like I am. It's the opposite experience if you're the golden child.) I have always been told that I'm vain, that I'm self centered, selfish, that I don't love my mom enough or at all, that I have no compassion - all from my own NPD mom. I still believe those things about myself to a degree. Beyond that, being raised by someone with NPD I generally am more narcissistic than someone who wasn't raised by someone with NPD. Everyone has narcissistic traits to a degree, I have more than the average person and my NPD mom has them to a damaging level. She'll never feel empathy because she just isn't capable of it.

Those apply to me. They also apply to my mom. Kind of like if you're raised by an alcoholic it's likely you don't have normal coping mechanisms because they were never displayed for you. That's kind of how I roll too. My oldest has a speech delay and it sometimes feels like I've failed her because she has a speech delay. It feels like she is an extension of me sometimes but she isn't, but that's the mother/daughter relationship that I was raised with so it's what I know. I do narc things even though I'm not a narc. If you're simply asking me if I'm a narcissist I'll tell you yes, I think I am but people who actually know what they're talking about tell me I'm not.

ETA: And I scored 21 on the test. I'm flirting with narcissism. Funny thing is that I think I would have scored a lot higher last year.

TalenCrowhaven

I think if you do some reading through an ACON forum, you won't find a whole lot of children of these Ns who would get a very good response if they asked their N parents this question. The most likely response of a true N will be either projection onto the child, N rage, the silent treatment, or some sort of punishment. Ns can hold a grudge to the grave and beyond.

What Stung has mentioned is sometimes referred to as "fleas", from having contact with, being related to, or being raised by an N. Like you would get fleas from a dog. You don't have to be a dog to have fleas just like you don't have to be an N to suffer the ripple effect of an N. Being afraid of this and self examination of our own behavior is a good sign that your not an N. A true N would not do this, IMOAE.

(((Stung)))

Stung

Thanks, Talen. The ACON forums that I've found trigger me something fierce. I can't read them too much because they turn me into a puddle of tears. Alcoholism hasn't been a force in my life except for the last few years with my husband and I am able to feel a lot of compassion for him (as long as he isn't actively drinking and in my personal space.) But NPD stuff just makes me cry. I haven't read anything that refers to alcoholics as "evil" but I regularly come across NPDs being described that way. It's hard to read and know that I have so many of those traits too whether I want them or not.

NWGRITS

My AM has been a narcissist since she was a child. This is going on information from people who knew her then; her brother and sister, mother, family friends, and some relatives. So in this case, the NPD came first.

TalenCrowhaven

I did some googling "children of narcissists alcoholics" and found this:

http://www.bravenewkitty.com/2012/10...he-narcissism/

desypete

The word 'narcissist' means egotistical, self-focused and vain

i never knew what that word means, but the description of it covers about every human being on the planet
the hard part would be to find anyone in the world who isnt a narcissist given that description
the way i try to live my life today is be trying to help others and not put me first etc

the way most people in the world think is to put themselves first in everything, its not just alcoholics that do this its most of the people on the planet

i firmly believe the aa program for living life would benefit everyone in the world and not just drunks
if we all put each other first and helped each other rather than just being so selfish in the world it would be a much better place.

Florence

Desypete: There's a difference between the description of narcissism and true NPD.

I try to keep compassion (from a distance!) for the NPDs I've known. They've all shared one primary trait that makes me feel for them when I would rather set them on fire -- they were all rejected by or abandoned by their primary caretaker when they were very small. Being children, they didn't understand that their parents' sacrifices were for the good of the family and internalized this rejection, becoming extremely selfish, entitled and detached with others as a result. With my ex, it was when his single mother came to the US to find a home and a job for herself to raise her two boys. With my mother, it was because her mother was sick with TB and was in and out of hospice care when my mom was a girl. Additionally, their families overcompensated for the absence of the parents, and fueled the entitlement. They're both monstrous today in many capacities, but I am capable of having civil interactions with them without being torn limb from limb emotionally anymore.

Lots of armchair psychology, but these just-so stories help me understand and have some distance from my NPDs. It really wasn't about me and my shortcomings -- they're really just injured children who grew up to be jerks.

schnappi99

@desy, that is an interesting comment. For a while my alanon program had the appearance of something selfish since it was so much about me and my behavior, yet as I started working the program I started becoming aware of others and how my behavior affects them. I still blow it periodically w/ my wife- getting all self-aborbed and having a codie relapse, though I do find the severity has decreased and my lag time before acknowledging it and apologizing has decreased. So it seems self-focused in part, but the program is bigger than that.

I do wonder about the normies and how they get along... or are they just better at coping or something?

GracieLou

There is a little bit of narcissism in everyone. There is a healthy dose and then there is a person with NPD. They are not the same animal.

I am also a child of a narcissistic mother. I have no contact with her. This is what is best for me.

I am reading a book called “Will I ever be good enough” for daughters of narcissistic mothers. It is helping a great deal. She makes a statement in the book that a parent with a substance abuse problem is an example of narcissistic behavior because the addiction speaks louder than anything else.

I didn’t want to read that but I did and I forced myself to highlight it.

The difference is that once a person is no longer active in thier addiction, most of the behavior will cease unlike the narcissist that does not even know they have a problem.

The more I read about the behavior the more I could see I had some of these traits. It feels like I was trained. Not to feel the same but react how my mother would. To view things how my mother would. There were many times over my life that I did things that did not feel right and now they make sense. They were not right for me but I did them because that is what she would have done or wanted me to do. Doing anything other then what she wanted or approved of resulted in emotional pain. The guilt and the shame she would inflict was not worth it. Her requirements were like a second nature to me that I had to follow over my first nature, reaction or my instincts.

This causes a lot of second guessing. I react one way but then I change my reaction then I go back to the first reaction. It can be quiet frustrating trying to decide if this is how I really feel or is this how I was taught to react.

I always felt that something was off with the relationship with my mother. I always felt different. I always felt I was not being me when I was around her for any length of time. My gut was telling me the truth but my mother was telling me different. She instilled in me that I was the problem, so I kept looking for something to fix me.

I thought that finally admitting I was an alcoholic would fix me. And while I have taken all the steps to remain sober and become a better person, the relationship with her did not improved and in fact got worse. The more I looked at the real me, the more I could see the real her. I could see the manipulations, the silent treatments and the guilt trips. I did not see them for what they really were when I was drinking. I felt so guilty and had so much shame for the things I did and said while I drank that I was just lopping them on the pile.

I felt like a victim for a while but I am now on the survivor journey and it feels good. I have a lot to learn.

That is the difference between someone that may show some narcissistic traits and a person with true NPD. I have traits because I was raised with those as my example BUT I did not feel the same. I felt bad, I felt sympathy and I can feel empathy, a person with NPD does not feel these things. They are not capable of it.

So I now have to learn how to express the feelings I always had but had no example of how to show them. Kindness, sympathy, empathy, unconditional love etc. I am learning, it is slow but I have already made progress. The real me that I always felt was inside is coming out and not only do I like her, she is sober too.

Yesterday I found a blessing in the middle of all this narcissistic hell.

I was thinking about how I used to think of others first before myself. This is what I was trained to do. The way I was taught is that I came last. I could want other things and I could have other things but only after everyone else was taken care of first.

The fact that I was trained to do this is what most likely kept me from doing more damage to my own children. The last five years of drinking my alcoholism took over but before that, I was a mother that did think of my children before myself. My alcoholism wanted different but my training to put my wants and needs last is what won for most of my drinking career.

I can be the mother that loves her children for who they are and not who I want them to be. It is very strange to be able to express these feelings. I always had them but I didn’t know how to show them. I had no examples growing up. Hugs, kisses and I love you are new and I like them.

I am not saying I did no damage, I did, but it could have been so much worse had I put myself first from the start instead of at the end.

Maybe I am wrong to think this way but I needed to look for at least one blessing and this is the one I found and it made sense as to why I was able to continue to function for as long as I did. I maintained the unmanageability because that is what I had been doing my whole life. Maintaining a false self was easy because I did it before I drank.

I don’t have to do that any more. I can live my life as I wish to live it as the person I want to be.

Refiner

Florence, I will have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. Although I'm sure someone with NPD may have had this background, I can attest that my sister, who is classic NPD, is quite the opposite. She had and controlled our parents' full-blown attention her entire life while they were alive from being a young child to well into her 50's. She was the Golden middle child that used her manipulative NPD ways from a young child. They enabled her and put her on a pedastal because that's what she demanded of them or it would be the wrath of her tearing through your very soul. EVEN AS A YOUNG CHILD she was this way. Not surprisingly, she is an alcoholic now. And will NEVER admit to NPD... since, as the article states, she thinks all her qualities are GOOD ones. I finally went NC with her. That only took 51 years to do!!

littlefish

How funny that I just looked at both those tests last night. My MIL, who is not in any way shape or form an alcoholic, is driving my husband and I crazy! I think she is a narcissistic personality.

She is "more qualified" and knows better than the nurses when it comes to caring for her 92 year old husband with failing health at home. She refused to allow the county to handicap access her home: it is an inconvenience to HER. She refuses to allow the county to come and check on him, because she is so qualified.
He fell last week during the night and lay on the floor for over two hours because she had taken his alarm bracelet off. "He doesn't need it" when she is there. Is her excuse.
Even after he fell, she didn't call for the home service nurse to come and see to him.
She knows better than the nurses.

Her stubborn and self-satisfied behavior is so frustrating, and now I'm worried that she is becoming a danger to her husband.
And, she is completely unaware that she has become "that problem lady" for the county. The idea would be utterly baffling to her!

CodeJob

I think the interesting thing about this is that so often we tell family and friends struggling with an addict to listen to who they are telling you they are. An NPD will TELL YOU - they won't lie! You just have to listen.

GracieLou

This is true if you walk in off the street but for someone that is raised with an alcoholic parent or an NPD parent, it is all they know. The only example they have. They assume that the behavior is normal. Even if they feel it is off, as I did, it is hard to pin point when the parent insists you are the problem and not them. You believe them, they are your parent. You are raised to believe they know best and know you better than you know yourself.

I heard that from my mother many times, that she knew me better than I knew myself, as well as all the things she has done for me so I owe her until she dies.

It is not until you are away from it for some time that you can see it is not normal.

It is co-dependency, you can't see it until you are far away from it either physically or emotionally how much a part you play in the scene.

Unlike the NPD an alcoholic can change if they are willing. They may be in denial but an NPD is not in denial, they deny nothing, ever! They have nothing to deny. They are always right!

Florence

Yeah, it's just a frequent finding in NPD's general history, not written in stone.

NWGRITS

My mother was the product of being the perfect child. Her father gave her the world, and neglected her brother and sister. When daddy died and the rest of the world didn't replace her pedestal, the downward spiral started.

h00ped

Sometimes literally.

My exA casually commented one day he was diagnosed NPD by a psychologist.

I thought that would be impossible, as I had seen "empathy" in him...

But now I understand what NPD is, and how Ns and psychopathic personalities are very good mimickers of emotions. I do believe now he truly is NPD and has strong psychopathic traits. I also believe his alcoholism was a coping mechanism but also a way to create drama and constantly throw himself into victim/give me attention/"everyone revolve their world around me" role. Self-sabotage is part of NPD, not sure it's part of psychopathy though.

For him, narcissism definitely came before the addictions, and remain when he's dry, unfortunately.

GracieLou

I found this to be true.

It dawned on me not long ago that because my NM was so wrapped up in herself, so hell bent on not caring about my recovery, because it was something that she could not take credit for, that she missed a perfect opportunity to destroy my life once again.

If she had been involved with her normal controlling tendencies she may have been able to completely undermine it at every turn.

This was another blessing I have found. They are there, if you look for them. The one thing I wanted more than anything at times was for my mother to be proud of the fact that I was in recovery. To be interested, ask a question, ask how I was doing. I used to pray for it. God said no and I did not understand, I do now.

The fact that she didn't, Thank God, she missed the forest for the trees. She was not watching me get better and stronger. She was not watching me, watching her. I had the support and the love of the people in AA, which she also missed. She did not realize that I was not as alone as I used to be. That I had been given unconditional love for the first time and that is how I could see that what she had been dishing out was not love.

This resulted in me having the time and space to see that she really was after all those years. To find the courage and strength to change the things I could.

I was able to remove her from my home, my life and to go no contact.

Now of course she takes no responsibility for her circumstances. It is all my fault or it is my BF fault. Nothing is her doing. She is a victim. She started her smear campaign the day I asked her to move out and she is continuing it.

I can't control what she does or who believes her. If I get the chance to tell my side I do it from my point of view and my feelings. I don't want people to take sides. I do understand that unless you have lived it, it is almost impossible to understand.

It is just like being an alcoholic. Only an alcoholic can really understand another alcoholic. Only a person subjected to narcissist abuse can really understand. I accept that.

NYCDoglvr

When he wrote the Big Book in the 1930's Bill Wilson described alcoholics as being self-centered in the extreme, selfish and as having enormous self-will.