seek

I just realized that a good reason why I cannot get along with any of the alcoholics/heavy drinkers/dry drunks in my family is due to core differences in values. I have very little in common with anyone who "values" (as in spends time and money on) alcohol, versus all of the other creative possibilities in the world.

I keep trying to "get along" because these people are my family.

It seems obvious to me now that any non-alcoholic/heavy drinker/dry drunk is bound to have relationship issues with anyone not in that same paradigm.

I keep projecting health and wellness onto people who are not well - part of it is hope - part rooting for the ones who are trying (in rehab) - part being in denial about the fact that my entire family is not emotionally or physically available due to one degree or another of focus on alcohol.

I wish the culture educated people more about this disease. There are great ads on TV now about how insidious nicotine addictions are - but nothing about alcohol. I wonder why the cigarette companies lost their advertising hold - versus the politics of alcohol consumption in the U.S.

isitme

This is something I too have started to notice. I had just such a conversation the other day. It's like just because they are stagnant in their growth that they expect everyone else to be too. I almost see it as plain selfishness and visions of grandeur.

To spend all your time and money drinking yet while you're doing that, constantly spewing forth all the ideas and "I'm gonna do's". How many conversations should really start with.. "If I had a million dollars.."? I said, can you just imagine how much you could accomplish if you didn't spend every night out here on the porch? Glazed over look for a response...

I'm reader, learner. I enjoy new little tid-bits of knowledge. (I might not be the best at applying them) but I like to learn non-the-less. And for some reason this just baffles and agitates him. If I ever start talking about conservation or ecology issues he just stares at my like I have lobsters crawling out of my ears.

That's where I think our core values are very different. Although I know he cares about people, his vision is very stunted into the vain of personal financial stability, personal gains and just all around ME attitude. We actually got in a slight argument one day because he couldn't understand why I would be concerned about water. (He was mad that I was reading instead of paying attention to him) I told him "Oh, I forgot, it's only important if it's something that will effect you, in your life time, never mind our children, or children's children.." What a surprise.. no response, except to tell me I'm being brain washed.

And I couldn't agree more about advertising. There is something very ominous there, not just for alcohol, but prescription drugs as well that really creeps me out.

lillamy

We were just talking about this at home the other night, and my husband was saying he can't understand how someone can choose getting drunk over all the other options in life.

I told him I don't think it's a choice after a certain point. You start drinking to feel different. And you end up in a place where you drink just to feel normal. To not feel horrible. I don't really think alcoholics value alcohol. I think they value alcohol like a slave values a slave owner: They hate it, but the thought of all they'd have to go through to change their situation is too frightening and overwhelming... and there is security even in a dysfunctional relationship...

seek

In the nineties I followed Pia Mellodie - she did a lot of work in the area of "co-dependency." In talking about love, she said that you can tell what a person loves by the attention they give to something . . . my use of the word "values" in terms of alcohol, is that the person is giving time and attention to alcohol.

On a broader, more philosophical scale, I think of "core values" - those things that you identify as being important. My list is much different than the lists of my family members. Partying and having a "good time" is high on each of their lists - that is not on my list at all.

I think it is important for anyone in any kind of relationship with an alcoholic to think about values - what you value and what they value - because I think that is the cause of much heartbreak - the people who are not alcoholics could be projecting their values onto the alcoholics - and then being disappointed, as I am, over and over again.

If the alcoholics were to come out and say that they value fun and feeling good above all else - and when push came to shove they would not be there for you - if they actually SAID that, then it would make it easier to not expect them to be responsible, kind, or even civil - it's the expectations that they are decent human beings who actually care about other people (down deep inside of course) that keep others stuck in the fantasy that there is someone there to actually have a relationship with - there's not.

I know there are recovering alcoholics who would probably dispute the above - and if they are recovering maybe they are in the place where they have recovered some of their humanity and are actually now capable of caring for OTHERS . . . but some will always be narcissistic or self-absorbed or somehow stunted - and I think the rest of us should make other plans and not keep looking to them for anything (talking to myself and my relationships with my family members who have broken my heart over and over again).

lillamy

I think that's the only thing we can do. It's hard to keep hoping and expecting, and it's ironically easier when you adjust your expectations to what history has told you you can expect -- nothing.

seek

I am trying to figure out how to have a life without family. What to do in cases of emergency, on holidays, etc. It is not an easy problem to solve. We (humans) are pack animals and need each other. It is hard not being able to have people to rely on or hang out with or people who simply love and support you.

There should be a "pound" for people who don't have family so other kind families could adopt them

biminiblue

This is so poignant. I have no family, either. My family has all passed away now, but there was enough dysfunction to have made our relationships strained even when they were alive.

I guess we get to make our own family now. It's definitely a challenge.

((hugs & prayers))

NYCDoglvr

As a recovering alcoholic (22 years) I agree with your observation. Even Bill Wilson said that alcoholics have major difficulties with relationships. They are self-centered, selfish, grandiose and suffer from extreme low self-esteem, which can be ameliorated with a program of recovery and therapy. But even then it takes a great deal of work to have successful relationships. A great line from my first sponsor: "having a relationship is like throwing Miracle Grow on your character defects". I had the worst relationship of my life with another recovering alcoholic and wouldn't get involved with another even if he was channeling Bill Wilson.

seek

I came of age in the Sixties and there was absolutely no education about alcohol and its negative effects. I never conceived that I even knew any alcoholics. I was married to one and didn't even know it (do not ask how that is possible - I have no clue - it was just not on my radar).

I sent a couple of my kids to Alateen when I realized the family heritage - turns out one of them is a declared alcoholic and one is a heavy drinker (perhaps alcoholic) - so that education did absolutely no good. One of them had has an alcoholic child.

If I had know about alcoholism, maybe I could have side-stepped some relationships. I like to think I would have - but I don't know.

I think there should be intense education about alcoholism and that there should be public service ads showing drunk people wreaking havoc on themselves and others.

I just recently found out alcohol is a carcinogen! I had no idea. I know for a fact that most of my family members do not know that. If you knew that you were pouring cancer down your throat, it might not seem so fun on Spring Breaks and such. At Spring Breaks if they showed the effects of cancer on big screens that might put a damper on things . . . kidding . . . kind of.

Colleges are well aware of the problems - hyper-aware. But do they do anything significant? No, they just take people's money and get on with the business of so-called "educating."

If I was younger, I would try to do something to bring public awareness to the problems caused by alcohol, but as it is, I am just coping, day-to-day, and wishing I had had a different family.

NWGRITS

It was a relief when I made the choice to leave my FOO. I've made my own family with my husband, children, and our friends here. Our family values are respect, honor, trust, communication. My FOO values lying, secrets, and dysfunction so the outside world thinks they're of high status. We live on far less than I grew up on and we don't do any vacationing or drive new cars (our newest vehicle is a 2004), but I've never been happier.

MissFixit

Just curious, why are you spending time with your family of origin if you find them toxic? I thought you might be in your twenties and not yet fully out on your own, but in your last post I read that you grew up in the sixties and have a child. Are you still really involved with your FOO? I am just curious about that, because I have had to separate myself from my FOO b/c they are toxic. I have fairly minimal contact.

seek

Everyone is different and has different values. I am not the kind of person who just dumps people . . . I don't believe in doing that. I understand that others choose to do that and that is their choice. I stick to commitments and obligations - I figure I have karma with these people . . . I have come to terms with my family of origin - that is not the problem - it is the family I created that is the problem - I love them and keep wishing the feeling was mutual (or that they weren't alcoholic/heavy drinkers) - I honestly didn't know they had "issues."

I see you are judging me for not doing what you did - not cool. Everyone has their own path.

seek

I also said I am trying to find other ways to celebrate holidays.

I never said I was hanging out with these people.

seek

I don't know if I didn't state the issue correctly or not. I said NOTHING about my family of origin - that is NOT the problem. The family I created has different values from me and I find that hurtful.

MissFixit

So, your alcoholic family refers to your adult alcoholic children, not your FOO. Do you have an idea in mind of what you want from your kids and they are not delivering?

There is a phrase that is something like "expectation breeds resentment." Whenever I expect someone else to behave in a certain way, I will likely resent it when they don't.

seek

I started this thread just to remind myself (and any others that might relate) that it is impossible to have healthy relationships with alcoholics or heavy drinkers (because they are consumed with alcohol, no pun intended). I wanted to state what should be obvious, but often isn't - that people who "use" alcohol (as in medicate with, get drunk on, etc. - not talking about having a glass of wine with dinner) have values that are diametrically opposed to mine.

What I EXPECT from any true, functional relationship - is to be treated with respect - and I keep EXPECTING that from my family members, because they are family. And it is not working. I don't give a rat's ass how they feel about MY FEELINGS at this point - they likely don't care. Why is everything about the alcoholic and how they feel? So they resent me - that's their issue. My issue is to take care of myself in a world full of drinkers and drunks - and it is not easy.

I hope to find a solution for myself (re: what to do on holidays, and when I need someone for something). These are MY real problems - this is what I am trying to focus on.

I can understand that alcoholics wouldn't understand, but I think this is why Alanon bugs me these days - everything is about the alcoholic and what they feel, what they think . . . I realize I am angry about this - and it is not directed towards any one person here - I am just sick of living my life in reaction or response to alcoholics. I want to live without these problems - just have to figure out some practical ways to do that. Thanks.

Stung

I think you may have answered this question with your post from yesterday, stop going to the hardware store for bread. You need bread and you keep hanging out at the hardware store. If you don't want to talk about hardware (alcohol) anymore, then I would suggest going somewhere else to hang out.

For me, this has been a tough lesson in learning about why (as my counselor says) I keep trying to squeeze blood from a turnip. What do you do for holidays? Make different plans. Go on a vacation somewhere. Make new friends to spend the holidays with. Work at a homeless shelter helping others. What do you do when you need something? Hire someone to help if you don't have friends who can help you.

I'm no contact with the in-laws and my mom has done a stellar job ostracizing me from my FOO so holidays are whatever I want to make them. I could call the day lonely or peaceful. Depends on my own expectations and perspective.

seek

I am not going anywhere. Thanks. It is not that I don't want to talk about alcohol, it is that I don't care if the alcoholic has a resentment because of my expectations. There is a difference. I don't "believe" in co-dependence, per se (I think we are all mutually dependent upon each other) but I do think it is very weird that one person cannot share their feelings without an argument. I am fed up and I am going to state my feelings. I have been squelching my feelings to suit the alcoholics for years - you would think this would be one place where it would be okay to express yourself - EVEN if it is not pretty - which it isn't right now.

It is not just one holiday I am planning for, but a lifestyle - it is a huge undertaking to try to figure out an entire new lifestyle.

Minimizing people's feelings is oppression - ask yourself WHY you do it (what is your motive?) - is it too much that one mere person has a voice?

Stung

I apologize if my response came off in an aggressive manner, I wasn't attempting to tell you where to go. My thoughts are that if you keep yourself around alcoholics then you'll be continually let down and around people with opposing "values."

Wishing you good luck and happiness.

seek

Also - why would people who claim to not want to be co-dependent want to talk about alcohol non-stop? That's not really healthy.

A healthy approach is to express your own feelings, own them, and try to forge a life free from alcoholics.