Morality Question
Stoic
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wash D.C.
Posts: 321
Morality Question
I have a court date related to custody, coming up in August.
(long story short, it's my AW appealing the family court decision to the circuit court, trying to have the custody orders amended)
There is zero chance the circuit court will overturn the family court decision...there is way too much evidence that she is still an active alcoholic, and hasn't complied with any of the court orders for treatment, etc.
Anyways, any court date that involves protecting my children from her, even if I'm sure I'll "win", still makes me nervous.
My AW (and most A's, I think) has her drinking cycle. Light Drinking-->Heavy Drinking-->withdrawal from the world-->detox-->a week or so of sobriety-->Back to Light Drinking.
My biggest fear is that she is in the "week or so of sobriety" during the court date. If she is in any of those other parts of the cycle, she will be a gibbering mess in court, DT's and all (she pretty much turns into a shaking mess even if she goes without alcohol for only 6 hours...highly alcohol dependent)...if she even shows up. This is what I want the circuit court to see. The Real Her. (new court, new judge...the family court judge had her number already, and saw through all her bs)
Finally, to my question! Would it be horrid of me to have a bottle of vodka anonymously delivered to her home, strategically timed before the court date so that I can be sure she isn't in a sober phase at that time? I have no doubt that she would drink it, if it came.
On the con side, I know how crappy a thing it is to purposely tempt an alcoholic like this, as they probably aren't making their own decisions. (the addiction is doing it for them)
On the pro side, shouldn't I be justified in doing anything it takes to protect my children from harm (her)? That's what I would see this as...an insurance policy.
After all, she doesn't have to drink it...it would be her choice. (But, I know she will)
Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Am I a monster if I do this? If I am...isn't it ok to be a Monster if the end result is the safety of your children?
(long story short, it's my AW appealing the family court decision to the circuit court, trying to have the custody orders amended)
There is zero chance the circuit court will overturn the family court decision...there is way too much evidence that she is still an active alcoholic, and hasn't complied with any of the court orders for treatment, etc.
Anyways, any court date that involves protecting my children from her, even if I'm sure I'll "win", still makes me nervous.
My AW (and most A's, I think) has her drinking cycle. Light Drinking-->Heavy Drinking-->withdrawal from the world-->detox-->a week or so of sobriety-->Back to Light Drinking.
My biggest fear is that she is in the "week or so of sobriety" during the court date. If she is in any of those other parts of the cycle, she will be a gibbering mess in court, DT's and all (she pretty much turns into a shaking mess even if she goes without alcohol for only 6 hours...highly alcohol dependent)...if she even shows up. This is what I want the circuit court to see. The Real Her. (new court, new judge...the family court judge had her number already, and saw through all her bs)
Finally, to my question! Would it be horrid of me to have a bottle of vodka anonymously delivered to her home, strategically timed before the court date so that I can be sure she isn't in a sober phase at that time? I have no doubt that she would drink it, if it came.
On the con side, I know how crappy a thing it is to purposely tempt an alcoholic like this, as they probably aren't making their own decisions. (the addiction is doing it for them)
On the pro side, shouldn't I be justified in doing anything it takes to protect my children from harm (her)? That's what I would see this as...an insurance policy.
After all, she doesn't have to drink it...it would be her choice. (But, I know she will)
Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Am I a monster if I do this? If I am...isn't it ok to be a Monster if the end result is the safety of your children?
happy, joyous an free!
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: northeast
Posts: 693
RTW, i think you already know the answer to your question... i have been to court many times in the last 3 years in order to protect a young child. i firmly believe the only reason she has any stability at all is because i remained honest on every level with the system. it will come back and bite you - if not in court then in another way.
when we do the right thing the right thing will happen. sometimes it doesn't seem that way but i have found that in time this proves true. a few things in the last few years did not go the way i thought they should but ultimately they were the right thing for my little one.
stay true to the person you are. are you that person?
when we do the right thing the right thing will happen. sometimes it doesn't seem that way but i have found that in time this proves true. a few things in the last few years did not go the way i thought they should but ultimately they were the right thing for my little one.
stay true to the person you are. are you that person?
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,443
While I see the temptation I would not do it. That level of manipulation works against your own recovery and I agree with m1K3 - real potential to backfire.
I can imagine how stressful this is. Perhaps use your energy to address that underlying fear in a healthier away that works for you and not against you. Keep your side of the street pristine, keep documenting things and live a good life. The life you and your kids deserve.
I can imagine how stressful this is. Perhaps use your energy to address that underlying fear in a healthier away that works for you and not against you. Keep your side of the street pristine, keep documenting things and live a good life. The life you and your kids deserve.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: FtW, Tx
Posts: 198
ResignedToWait - Normally I would not post on this but since you asked for opinions I reluctantly will give mine. This seems very cruel and punishing in nature. I am sure you are hurt and hurt bad. With this pain comes anger and most of us here have at one time felt that considerably. What if that is the bottle that kills the mother of your children? What if she drinks that bottle and kills an innocent family while driving? I could go on with what if's forever but you get the point. Punishing her does nothing for you in the long run. In my opinion boundaries are healthy but punishment is not. I hope you find peace and that she finds recovery. Your kids deserve two stable parents but one is better than none. Do the next right thing for you and the kids and let the alcoholic find their way the best they can. Creating a crisis adds to the problem not diffusing one. She is obviously very sick and her sickness has greatly impacted your family. Stay the high ground and keep your side of the street clean and you will have more self respect in the end.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Alaska
Posts: 2,913
Hi, Resigned, I remember having those thoughts as I went through the divorce and custody proceedings with AXH. I didn't do it. I wanted to. I wanted to call his drinking buddies and let them know 'I was concerned. I'd filed for divorce and he was down, I was worried....' knowing they'd be right over to 'help' him through it with a few bottles and whatever else they were into at the time. I daydreamed about it. About AXH stumbling around the courtroom like he did at the apartment we had shared - if he showed up at all. About him being so drunk that he remained passed out on the couch throughout the hearing time, like he regularly did before I left.
I berated myself for waiting to file until he'd reached the coherent state again... WHY didn't I file while he was rattling around looking like he couldn't string two words together. I didn't. I couldn't. I don't think I could have lived with the guilt had I sent a bottle or his friends; I had so much guilt already. But that's me.
The thing to keep in mind is: the court will see what's going on. The judge in our case heard the lies AXH said, the rationalizations, the cop-outs. What's more, the judge recognized and understood it for what it was.
He understood that when AXH said, "I go to AA everyday unless I'm working a lot," and then later, "I just work a lot now," what that meant about AXH's commitment to recovery. He understood that when AXH was asked about not showing for visits and he said "I was working a lot, so I fell asleep," that falling asleep was AXH's code for "passed out." The judge recognized that AXH was behaving while the spotlight of the court was on him and that he'd most likely go right back to drinking and using the minute he thought he was clear. The judge said as much when he discussed his findings and decision.
I didn't like the arrangement the court came up with, because I thought they were giving him a clean slate. They weren't. They didn't. They made a note of his past behavior and then gave him a chance to prove that he wanted to be a sober parent. They put protections in place for DS during that chance by making the visits supervised. And when he failed to prove that he was ready to be a sober parent, they took his visitation away, at least until such time as AXH proves himself.
Would it have been quicker if he'd shown up drunk, or failed to show? Yes. But I didn't want more guilt. And the court saw through AXH's act any way.
I berated myself for waiting to file until he'd reached the coherent state again... WHY didn't I file while he was rattling around looking like he couldn't string two words together. I didn't. I couldn't. I don't think I could have lived with the guilt had I sent a bottle or his friends; I had so much guilt already. But that's me.
The thing to keep in mind is: the court will see what's going on. The judge in our case heard the lies AXH said, the rationalizations, the cop-outs. What's more, the judge recognized and understood it for what it was.
He understood that when AXH said, "I go to AA everyday unless I'm working a lot," and then later, "I just work a lot now," what that meant about AXH's commitment to recovery. He understood that when AXH was asked about not showing for visits and he said "I was working a lot, so I fell asleep," that falling asleep was AXH's code for "passed out." The judge recognized that AXH was behaving while the spotlight of the court was on him and that he'd most likely go right back to drinking and using the minute he thought he was clear. The judge said as much when he discussed his findings and decision.
I didn't like the arrangement the court came up with, because I thought they were giving him a clean slate. They weren't. They didn't. They made a note of his past behavior and then gave him a chance to prove that he wanted to be a sober parent. They put protections in place for DS during that chance by making the visits supervised. And when he failed to prove that he was ready to be a sober parent, they took his visitation away, at least until such time as AXH proves himself.
Would it have been quicker if he'd shown up drunk, or failed to show? Yes. But I didn't want more guilt. And the court saw through AXH's act any way.
Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,649
Resigned to wait: you sound so desperate! It's a desperate idea, and I think you know the answer.
The courts are accustomed to these cases, enough to know that someone can show up to court looking fairly okay, but that is not the true state of affairs. The fact that she hasn't complied with any of the previous court orders will weigh heavily against her. If you are worried, you might want to seek some legal advice.
I know people in recovery who had to do a daily breath test for months to prove to the court their sobriety.
This the sort of thing that would be much wiser to petition for, instead of an act of sabotage that you will surely come to regret....
The courts are accustomed to these cases, enough to know that someone can show up to court looking fairly okay, but that is not the true state of affairs. The fact that she hasn't complied with any of the previous court orders will weigh heavily against her. If you are worried, you might want to seek some legal advice.
I know people in recovery who had to do a daily breath test for months to prove to the court their sobriety.
This the sort of thing that would be much wiser to petition for, instead of an act of sabotage that you will surely come to regret....
Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 2,066
I think this is one of those instances where you have to realize that you have no control. Additionally, it isn't about you or her, it's really about your kids. You can't win here, and the way for your kids to win is to have TWO sober parents. Sending her a bottle of vodka is actually working against that.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
August is a couple months away. A lot can happen between now and then.
The last thing you want to do is in any way encourage or incite her to drink MORE. the potential consequences are exponential. and it's just plain crazy thinking. Remember we didn't cause, we can't control it or cure it.
The best defense is a good offense (or is it the other way around?). in either case, you keep your side of the street clean, you act within the law, you meet your court dates, and you keep fighting the good fight.
The last thing you want to do is in any way encourage or incite her to drink MORE. the potential consequences are exponential. and it's just plain crazy thinking. Remember we didn't cause, we can't control it or cure it.
The best defense is a good offense (or is it the other way around?). in either case, you keep your side of the street clean, you act within the law, you meet your court dates, and you keep fighting the good fight.
Engineer Things; LOVE People
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,707
Maybe let's take this wider?
"Is it okay to do evil to promote some greater good?"
jmho . . . IF, again IF, You/We are in ANY of the programs that operate, as they say -- "on a spiritual basis' -- the basis of the spirit(s) you will want to running with are on the Good side of things.
If you are running with the Good side, you do not want to be messing with the Bad side. Does that make sense?
Please understand that we ALL face some variation of this type temptation. And at this point, it is ALL solely in YOUR head. Do you understand that your wife or ex or whatever has NOTHING to do with this?
This is JUST you. Being tempted to do something evil. And it is YOUR life and YOUR choice.
Get prayed up and choose wisely.
"Is it okay to do evil to promote some greater good?"
jmho . . . IF, again IF, You/We are in ANY of the programs that operate, as they say -- "on a spiritual basis' -- the basis of the spirit(s) you will want to running with are on the Good side of things.
If you are running with the Good side, you do not want to be messing with the Bad side. Does that make sense?
Please understand that we ALL face some variation of this type temptation. And at this point, it is ALL solely in YOUR head. Do you understand that your wife or ex or whatever has NOTHING to do with this?
This is JUST you. Being tempted to do something evil. And it is YOUR life and YOUR choice.
Get prayed up and choose wisely.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 609
I know first hand it is easy to get caught up in getting even because you have been hurt. I go into crazy thought mode as well! Keep your side of the street clean and I guarantee you, The people who hurt us and do awful things will fall on their own with no help from us.
I had this whole elaborate plan of how I was going to humiliate separated AH and enabling gf he cheated on me with. They are co-workers so I was going to humiliate them at work. I realized...if I went through with it, I would look crazy even though they are the ones who have something to be ashamed of...
I had this whole elaborate plan of how I was going to humiliate separated AH and enabling gf he cheated on me with. They are co-workers so I was going to humiliate them at work. I realized...if I went through with it, I would look crazy even though they are the ones who have something to be ashamed of...
Stoic
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wash D.C.
Posts: 321
Thank you, everyone. I can't believe I actually thought anyone would agree with my idea! I almost thought it would be a 50/50..but the 100% responses against it really help me to step back and realize that it wouldn't be a good idea at all. It sure helps to have a rational group of people to bounce things off of. 
I do worry, but I shouldn't. She is constantly drunk these days, probably in the middle of the "Heavy Drinking" phase. The phone calls I have recorded while she talks to the children (per the court order allowing one call a day to them) would make anyone here fuming mad..the things she talks to them about! (they are 4 and 8)
In any case, all that is going to be at court (I send them to the Guardian ad Litem every time she calls and acts inappropriate). Thank goodness for the "One-party consent recording" laws in Virgina. =)
Again, thank you all! I do truly appreciate your rationality bringing me back to Earth.
I do worry, but I shouldn't. She is constantly drunk these days, probably in the middle of the "Heavy Drinking" phase. The phone calls I have recorded while she talks to the children (per the court order allowing one call a day to them) would make anyone here fuming mad..the things she talks to them about! (they are 4 and 8)
In any case, all that is going to be at court (I send them to the Guardian ad Litem every time she calls and acts inappropriate). Thank goodness for the "One-party consent recording" laws in Virgina. =)
Again, thank you all! I do truly appreciate your rationality bringing me back to Earth.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Alaska
Posts: 2,913
I think worry is part of the package when trying to protect our children from their alcoholic parent's addiction during custody proceedings. At least until the kids are way older (maybe - I'm not yet convinced and DS is now 9), we have time to heal and regain our equilibrium, and/or the other parent has some serious recovery-time under their belt.
I remember very distinctly trying to calm down a bit after some of AXH's inappropriate convos with DS. (I didn't get to record them, but DS was enthralled with Speaker Phone - he thought it so cool that he didn't have to hold it up to his ear and could walk around the room.) I think quite a few of us have been through that.
I remember very distinctly trying to calm down a bit after some of AXH's inappropriate convos with DS. (I didn't get to record them, but DS was enthralled with Speaker Phone - he thought it so cool that he didn't have to hold it up to his ear and could walk around the room.) I think quite a few of us have been through that.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
The phone calls I have recorded while she talks to the children (per the court order allowing one call a day to them) would make anyone here fuming mad..the things she talks to them about! (they are 4 and 8)
she may have the court granted RIGHT to CALL her children, but there is nothing saying that the connection can't drop. when you hear her talking to your children in an unacceptable manner, you hang up the phone. and then you do not answer again. you still get to protect your small children from what they hear and experience. it's a shame you have such lousy phone service, eh?
she may have the court granted RIGHT to CALL her children, but there is nothing saying that the connection can't drop. when you hear her talking to your children in an unacceptable manner, you hang up the phone. and then you do not answer again. you still get to protect your small children from what they hear and experience. it's a shame you have such lousy phone service, eh?
Stoic
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wash D.C.
Posts: 321
I wanted to give an update on this.
My court date was today, it was a VERY long day (9 hours total of driving) in order to attend, but so, so satisfying. The appeal was dismissed by the circuit court on a technicality (by the Guardian at litem, bless her!)...and all is well.
AW was a complete & utter mess. She showed up 45 minutes late. Disheveled, shaking, obviously starting to withdraw. She arrived with her live-in boyfriend accompanying her into the courtroom! It was scandalous! Completely damning to her case as well. Her BF is involved in lewd photos/videos that he & she records/takes of him cross-dressing, from my children's bedroom in the home I took us out of...and I've provided all that to the court previously. For her to actually BRING HIM IN to the court...my goodness. It was like going fishing, and all the fish just jump into your boat and start frying themselves for dinner for you. The incredible stupidity of both of them...I'm still in awe.
Anyways, I wanted to thank all of you for steering me right with this. I did not, of course, do what I was thinking of doing in this thread, because of everyone that helped me realize how bad it would be of me to do. So, thank you SO much!!
My court date was today, it was a VERY long day (9 hours total of driving) in order to attend, but so, so satisfying. The appeal was dismissed by the circuit court on a technicality (by the Guardian at litem, bless her!)...and all is well.
AW was a complete & utter mess. She showed up 45 minutes late. Disheveled, shaking, obviously starting to withdraw. She arrived with her live-in boyfriend accompanying her into the courtroom! It was scandalous! Completely damning to her case as well. Her BF is involved in lewd photos/videos that he & she records/takes of him cross-dressing, from my children's bedroom in the home I took us out of...and I've provided all that to the court previously. For her to actually BRING HIM IN to the court...my goodness. It was like going fishing, and all the fish just jump into your boat and start frying themselves for dinner for you. The incredible stupidity of both of them...I'm still in awe.
Anyways, I wanted to thank all of you for steering me right with this. I did not, of course, do what I was thinking of doing in this thread, because of everyone that helped me realize how bad it would be of me to do. So, thank you SO much!!
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