woman versus women
pray for strength
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: New England
Posts: 2,414
woman versus women
As in psychological warfare.
Woman versus women, myself in groups of women, was a very common drinking scenario for me in my 20s and 30s. Now that I am not drinking it is one of my biggest anxiety inducing social scenarios in any arena (except for sports related teams). A weakness in relating to groups of women (and even that I liken the social scenario to 'warfare') is something I am very embarrassed to admit, one of my greatest vulnerabilities, and most terrifying insecurities.
A bit of background:
I'm an in my early 30s woman with 2 young daughters and a sweetheart of a husband. My life until now has been surrounded by an abundance of kind, sensitive males - stereotypical strong, silent types. There are very few women in my extended and in-law family and the ones that exist are very strong-minded yet possess the capacity of exacting swift, precise, painful, certain and absolute psychological punishment as they see fit (I did not inherit this predilection). My skin is thick in many areas, but not when dealing with other women, especially groups. My close girlfriends are amazing, valuable, kind and I can count the number on my right hand. I adore my mother but arriving here has taken a ridiculous amount of give and take 'work' which luckily she was willing to undertake. All this is probably a reason I do not do cliques.
Unfortunately, I find that groups of mothers crank the psychological cruelty factor up a notch...to almost intolerable. My husband and I recently relocated to an area where once you are cast out of the group, you are absolutely out. Eight months ago I made the mistake of verbalizing (after having the 437th conversation about where my daughters are going, will go, plan to go, wait-listed, eligible to go to school for the duration of their as of yet non-existent lives) that "I will die if I have talk about school ever again for the rest of my life"...and I was *almost* cast out. Almost exiled. Yesterday I attended a baby shower for a member of this large community of women, despite feeling sick to my stomach with anxiety, and left thinking "That totally sucked, but I did it totally sober". My idea of a good conversation is talking about Wimbledon, the cosmos, anything other than my kids, amazing husband, other people, or whatever exists in 'In Touch' magazine. I try to have a good attitude but being part of the group and conversation just feels like a waste of time. But at the same time getting myself on the womens' 'persona non grata' list any further than I already am is socially unthinkable and isolating. I realize I need new sober skills and other than you all - I see my therapist on Thursday.
What I am asking, after all this, is like the other thread about dating in your 20s while sober:
How do you socialize with women while sober in your 30s? Thanks for reading. All words are appreciated.
***any and all insightful book suggestions appreciated as well. I have to get over this. And I just exhaled audibly as I finished writing this. It always feels so cathartic to write here on SR!
Woman versus women, myself in groups of women, was a very common drinking scenario for me in my 20s and 30s. Now that I am not drinking it is one of my biggest anxiety inducing social scenarios in any arena (except for sports related teams). A weakness in relating to groups of women (and even that I liken the social scenario to 'warfare') is something I am very embarrassed to admit, one of my greatest vulnerabilities, and most terrifying insecurities.
A bit of background:
I'm an in my early 30s woman with 2 young daughters and a sweetheart of a husband. My life until now has been surrounded by an abundance of kind, sensitive males - stereotypical strong, silent types. There are very few women in my extended and in-law family and the ones that exist are very strong-minded yet possess the capacity of exacting swift, precise, painful, certain and absolute psychological punishment as they see fit (I did not inherit this predilection). My skin is thick in many areas, but not when dealing with other women, especially groups. My close girlfriends are amazing, valuable, kind and I can count the number on my right hand. I adore my mother but arriving here has taken a ridiculous amount of give and take 'work' which luckily she was willing to undertake. All this is probably a reason I do not do cliques.
Unfortunately, I find that groups of mothers crank the psychological cruelty factor up a notch...to almost intolerable. My husband and I recently relocated to an area where once you are cast out of the group, you are absolutely out. Eight months ago I made the mistake of verbalizing (after having the 437th conversation about where my daughters are going, will go, plan to go, wait-listed, eligible to go to school for the duration of their as of yet non-existent lives) that "I will die if I have talk about school ever again for the rest of my life"...and I was *almost* cast out. Almost exiled. Yesterday I attended a baby shower for a member of this large community of women, despite feeling sick to my stomach with anxiety, and left thinking "That totally sucked, but I did it totally sober". My idea of a good conversation is talking about Wimbledon, the cosmos, anything other than my kids, amazing husband, other people, or whatever exists in 'In Touch' magazine. I try to have a good attitude but being part of the group and conversation just feels like a waste of time. But at the same time getting myself on the womens' 'persona non grata' list any further than I already am is socially unthinkable and isolating. I realize I need new sober skills and other than you all - I see my therapist on Thursday.
What I am asking, after all this, is like the other thread about dating in your 20s while sober:
How do you socialize with women while sober in your 30s? Thanks for reading. All words are appreciated.
***any and all insightful book suggestions appreciated as well. I have to get over this. And I just exhaled audibly as I finished writing this. It always feels so cathartic to write here on SR!
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Ireland
Posts: 25,826
Originally Posted by LeTheVerte 
after having the 437th conversation about where my daughters are going, will go, plan to go, wait-listed, eligible to go to school for the duration of their as of yet non-existent lives
On a serious note, most of my work colleagues are female and have kids, and being male I thankfully am allowed to excuse myself from these conversations and go and hide in my office!!
When they do talk to me they try to cut out the topics of husbands, kids and fashion, and steer the conversation towards sport, for all but a millisecond!!
Yeap!! . . . I am no help whatsoever on this topic!! . . . hopefully some others are shortly coming behind me!!
Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,778
I am so lucky to have a few close female friends that I have known for years, and there are a lot of loving and strong women in my family. That said, I know quite a few people who have the same problem you do with the "mommy club". All I can say is to maybe look outside of that circle to meet new people. I don't have kids, but I appreciate and love being around them. How do you feel about making friends with some people who don't have children? Many of them will have a completely different perspective and won't be bogged down in all that crap.
People can be so mean. You don't need to beg for anyone's friendship. There are good women out there who know how to relate without cutting each other down. xo
People can be so mean. You don't need to beg for anyone's friendship. There are good women out there who know how to relate without cutting each other down. xo
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 306
Originally Posted by LeTheVerte
As in psychological warfare.
Woman versus women, myself in groups of women, was a very common drinking scenario for me in my 20s and 30s. Now that I am not drinking it is one of my biggest anxiety inducing social scenarios in any arena (except for sports related teams). A weakness in relating to groups of women (and even that I liken the social scenario to 'warfare') is something I am very embarrassed to admit, one of my greatest vulnerabilities, and most terrifying insecurities.
A bit of background:
I'm an in my early 30s woman with 2 young daughters and a sweetheart of a husband. My life until now has been surrounded by an abundance of kind, sensitive males - stereotypical strong, silent types. There are very few women in my extended and in-law family and the ones that exist are very strong-minded yet possess the capacity of exacting swift, precise, painful, certain and absolute psychological punishment as they see fit (I did not inherit this predilection). My skin is thick in many areas, but not when dealing with other women, especially groups. My close girlfriends are amazing, valuable, kind and I can count the number on my right hand. I adore my mother but arriving here has taken a ridiculous amount of give and take 'work' which luckily she was willing to undertake. All this is probably a reason I do not do cliques.
Unfortunately, I find that groups of mothers crank the psychological cruelty factor up a notch...to almost intolerable. My husband and I recently relocated to an area where once you are cast out of the group, you are absolutely out. Eight months ago I made the mistake of verbalizing (after having the 437th conversation about where my daughters are going, will go, plan to go, wait-listed, eligible to go to school for the duration of their as of yet non-existent lives) that "I will die if I have talk about school ever again for the rest of my life"...and I was *almost* cast out. Almost exiled. Yesterday I attended a baby shower for a member of this large community of women, despite feeling sick to my stomach with anxiety, and left thinking "That totally sucked, but I did it totally sober". My idea of a good conversation is talking about Wimbledon, the cosmos, anything other than my kids, amazing husband, other people, or whatever exists in 'In Touch' magazine. I try to have a good attitude but being part of the group and conversation just feels like a waste of time. But at the same time getting myself on the womens' 'persona non grata' list any further than I already am is socially unthinkable and isolating. I realize I need new sober skills and other than you all - I see my therapist on Thursday.
What I am asking, after all this, is like the other thread about dating in your 20s while sober:
How do you socialize with women while sober in your 30s? Thanks for reading. All words are appreciated.
***any and all insightful book suggestions appreciated as well. I have to get over this. And I just exhaled audibly as I finished writing this. It always feels so cathartic to write here on SR!
Woman versus women, myself in groups of women, was a very common drinking scenario for me in my 20s and 30s. Now that I am not drinking it is one of my biggest anxiety inducing social scenarios in any arena (except for sports related teams). A weakness in relating to groups of women (and even that I liken the social scenario to 'warfare') is something I am very embarrassed to admit, one of my greatest vulnerabilities, and most terrifying insecurities.
A bit of background:
I'm an in my early 30s woman with 2 young daughters and a sweetheart of a husband. My life until now has been surrounded by an abundance of kind, sensitive males - stereotypical strong, silent types. There are very few women in my extended and in-law family and the ones that exist are very strong-minded yet possess the capacity of exacting swift, precise, painful, certain and absolute psychological punishment as they see fit (I did not inherit this predilection). My skin is thick in many areas, but not when dealing with other women, especially groups. My close girlfriends are amazing, valuable, kind and I can count the number on my right hand. I adore my mother but arriving here has taken a ridiculous amount of give and take 'work' which luckily she was willing to undertake. All this is probably a reason I do not do cliques.
Unfortunately, I find that groups of mothers crank the psychological cruelty factor up a notch...to almost intolerable. My husband and I recently relocated to an area where once you are cast out of the group, you are absolutely out. Eight months ago I made the mistake of verbalizing (after having the 437th conversation about where my daughters are going, will go, plan to go, wait-listed, eligible to go to school for the duration of their as of yet non-existent lives) that "I will die if I have talk about school ever again for the rest of my life"...and I was *almost* cast out. Almost exiled. Yesterday I attended a baby shower for a member of this large community of women, despite feeling sick to my stomach with anxiety, and left thinking "That totally sucked, but I did it totally sober". My idea of a good conversation is talking about Wimbledon, the cosmos, anything other than my kids, amazing husband, other people, or whatever exists in 'In Touch' magazine. I try to have a good attitude but being part of the group and conversation just feels like a waste of time. But at the same time getting myself on the womens' 'persona non grata' list any further than I already am is socially unthinkable and isolating. I realize I need new sober skills and other than you all - I see my therapist on Thursday.
What I am asking, after all this, is like the other thread about dating in your 20s while sober:
How do you socialize with women while sober in your 30s? Thanks for reading. All words are appreciated.
***any and all insightful book suggestions appreciated as well. I have to get over this. And I just exhaled audibly as I finished writing this. It always feels so cathartic to write here on SR!Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
Hey LTV,
Interesting post. I'm just over the 30's point (turned 40 almost exactly at my one month sobriety mark), so I still remember well Let me start telling you that based on your description, you live a very different lifestyle than I do - I don't have kids, am not married, and am bi. But maybe you find my experience interesting.
First off, I have always been drawn to males MUCH more than to females for friendship and trust, since I was a kid. I believe this strong pref is rooted in my childhood, that I never really developed much connection with my mother, and also probably because the female members of my family tend to have so many personal issues that are unattractive to me and no intention to work on them. This is one part, the other is similar to what you are saying: the areas of my interest are generally much more similar / compatible with men (except sports). I'm also been told many times that my thinking style is also more like that of men than that of women. Of course this is generalizing, but you get the point. I am a scientist, and there are many women in my profession with whom we definitely have shared interests, but I still tend to find that our outside of work interests are just too different too often. For me it's not even that I don't want to discuss practical issues about kids and family - I can't because I do not have them, even though I do find the development and growth of a child fascinating.
Most of my friends up to my mid-30's especially were guys. It was only less than 5 years ago that I felt a very interesting and good genuine connection with a woman, who became my gf... now that was changed big time after my getting sober. I was compatible with her because we had many shared interests and tastes, and because she's a pretty calm person, consistent, not very temperamental although quite sensitive, which I liked.
I had female friends in my teens at school, but probably all girls have that and that's not comparable to adult socializing.
If you feel uncomfortable in/about groups of women - why do you need to be in such groups at all? Couldn't you do the social life with women 1:1, when you have the opportunity for more in depth discussions? Find these friends via shared interests that you have, to start with? For example, I really enjoy taking classes (unrelated to my work) like philosophy, all sorts of pshychological self-work, art stuff, or when I lived in a different environment, I was part of a hiking club. I also meet plenty of people via work all the time, and I love my work, definitely one of my top interests. Couldn't you do similar things? Of course it depends where you live, what kinds of opportunities are available. I also tend not to care much about age and many of my best friends have been a lot older than me since my teens. So that way it's never been limited to typical youthful kind of socializing. Also, like I imagine yourself, I absolutely hate and detest gossip, and when I was younger, I felt a bit outcast because I never wanted to participate in that when other women did it.
So my suggestion is that you don't just hang out for the sake of hanging out - seek companionship specifically, with people who are interested in what you are interested in. Have you ever tried meetup.com? That could also lead you to groups.
I think many of us find that our sober social preferences and skills are quite different, and we need to learn a lot of things newly. I, for example, find myself far more social sober... was very isolated and a loner while drinking.
Interesting post. I'm just over the 30's point (turned 40 almost exactly at my one month sobriety mark), so I still remember well
Let me start telling you that based on your description, you live a very different lifestyle than I do - I don't have kids, am not married, and am bi. But maybe you find my experience interesting.First off, I have always been drawn to males MUCH more than to females for friendship and trust, since I was a kid. I believe this strong pref is rooted in my childhood, that I never really developed much connection with my mother, and also probably because the female members of my family tend to have so many personal issues that are unattractive to me and no intention to work on them. This is one part, the other is similar to what you are saying: the areas of my interest are generally much more similar / compatible with men (except sports). I'm also been told many times that my thinking style is also more like that of men than that of women. Of course this is generalizing, but you get the point. I am a scientist, and there are many women in my profession with whom we definitely have shared interests, but I still tend to find that our outside of work interests are just too different too often. For me it's not even that I don't want to discuss practical issues about kids and family - I can't because I do not have them, even though I do find the development and growth of a child fascinating.
Most of my friends up to my mid-30's especially were guys. It was only less than 5 years ago that I felt a very interesting and good genuine connection with a woman, who became my gf... now that was changed big time after my getting sober. I was compatible with her because we had many shared interests and tastes, and because she's a pretty calm person, consistent, not very temperamental although quite sensitive, which I liked.
I had female friends in my teens at school, but probably all girls have that and that's not comparable to adult socializing.
If you feel uncomfortable in/about groups of women - why do you need to be in such groups at all? Couldn't you do the social life with women 1:1, when you have the opportunity for more in depth discussions? Find these friends via shared interests that you have, to start with? For example, I really enjoy taking classes (unrelated to my work) like philosophy, all sorts of pshychological self-work, art stuff, or when I lived in a different environment, I was part of a hiking club. I also meet plenty of people via work all the time, and I love my work, definitely one of my top interests. Couldn't you do similar things? Of course it depends where you live, what kinds of opportunities are available. I also tend not to care much about age and many of my best friends have been a lot older than me since my teens. So that way it's never been limited to typical youthful kind of socializing. Also, like I imagine yourself, I absolutely hate and detest gossip, and when I was younger, I felt a bit outcast because I never wanted to participate in that when other women did it.
So my suggestion is that you don't just hang out for the sake of hanging out - seek companionship specifically, with people who are interested in what you are interested in. Have you ever tried meetup.com? That could also lead you to groups.
I think many of us find that our sober social preferences and skills are quite different, and we need to learn a lot of things newly. I, for example, find myself far more social sober... was very isolated and a loner while drinking.
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Midwest
Posts: 9,029
Hi LTV. I wish I had some words to wisdom for you. Sadly, what you are experiencing doesn't change much depending on your age. Even though my kids are young I'll be 50 later this year and still feel somewhat like you do. Still not part of the mommy club with a triple whammy - I'm older, I'm an alcoholic and I can sometimes feel socially awkward. I've never fully felt I fit in.
Though now that I am older, I don't really want to fit in with the "mommy club" people who only talk about their kids (although I'm sometimes guilty of that when trying to find common ground in talking to someone), or gossip. Or how they want to have ladies night out and get drunk. It isn't appealing.
For me I have a couple of very good friends from high school that I still see socially. I started going to AA meetings and talking to other women there and now have three that I regularly either see, talk to or text. Some of the women at church have turned out to be quite interesting to talk to about things I'm interested in other than church.
Even though I now don't want to be part of the mommy club I can't totally ignore it either because those are the people whose kids mine will be playing with. They are the people who can give me tips on babysitters, activities, can pick up the kids in a pinch if needed.
So, friendly at a distance. I take friends where I find them. Sometimes the mommy club stuff does hurt. I admit that. But do I want to be one of them? Sometimes I think that some of the social events were only tolerable because I was drinking.
Hang in there. You will find your niche.
Though now that I am older, I don't really want to fit in with the "mommy club" people who only talk about their kids (although I'm sometimes guilty of that when trying to find common ground in talking to someone), or gossip. Or how they want to have ladies night out and get drunk. It isn't appealing.
For me I have a couple of very good friends from high school that I still see socially. I started going to AA meetings and talking to other women there and now have three that I regularly either see, talk to or text. Some of the women at church have turned out to be quite interesting to talk to about things I'm interested in other than church.
Even though I now don't want to be part of the mommy club I can't totally ignore it either because those are the people whose kids mine will be playing with. They are the people who can give me tips on babysitters, activities, can pick up the kids in a pinch if needed.
So, friendly at a distance. I take friends where I find them. Sometimes the mommy club stuff does hurt. I admit that. But do I want to be one of them? Sometimes I think that some of the social events were only tolerable because I was drinking.
Hang in there. You will find your niche.
pray for strength
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: New England
Posts: 2,414
Brb! Running to the market but am mulling your feedback already. I know that I have been asking the wrong questions for quite a while (regarding many things)...what I once wrote here on the boards still holds true:
Through reading your lived-experience responses I often figure out both the questions and the answers simultaneously. Aha! moments galore with the wise folks on SR. You a are truly valued.
Through reading your lived-experience responses I often figure out both the questions and the answers simultaneously. Aha! moments galore with the wise folks on SR. You a are truly valued.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
Just to add something, LTV: I think you definitely don't need to worry about your social skills. I can tell following your posts that you are probably someone with great social skills and quite extroverted. Wish I had that... You'll figure out how to do it sober
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Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 500
ooooh I can relate to this post. This is all the beginning for me and I have already shot myself in the foot as far as the mother's go in my neighbourhood. So much so that I almost want to take him to another school because I consider the mother's to be so cliquey... I decided to be on the board of my son's co op last fall because I had a little extra time and thought it would be nice to get to know some of the other moms. Well that was a big mistake. At the board meetings they all sat around and complained about everything but more over they complained about EACH OTHER when other's weren't at the meeting. Anyhow in the end I had to pull my child out of the school but the level of nastiness that went on at those meetings was astounding! And who got invited to birthday parties.. nonsense... I couldn't get over it. That was pre-school so I presumably have to see these people for years to come. I am not looking forward to it.
Yep I had no idea but it is a bad version of a high school movie. This is the ONE major thing about being a parent that I abhor. I don't understand why women have to be so nasty to one another or be in each other's business all of the time. It's ridiculous and kind of sad really. Sorry I don't have too much advice for you. We just moved into this neighbourhood too. What I do is keep in touch and visit my old friends often. I have to believe there are some mother's out there that aren't this way. Hopefully there will be some diamonds on the rough out there. Yes and then there is the whole sobriety thing! I hadn't even thought about that. One of my friends who is a mom does a book club. I was thinking of taking a life drawing course.. Personally though, I think I might hope to make some friends with people who aren't parents just for conversational reasons. Yeah, it's not easy, I personally find this part of life to be very isolating. Sorry I couldn't off any decent advice, I just wanted to say I that I can relate! It's tough out there.
Yep I had no idea but it is a bad version of a high school movie. This is the ONE major thing about being a parent that I abhor. I don't understand why women have to be so nasty to one another or be in each other's business all of the time. It's ridiculous and kind of sad really. Sorry I don't have too much advice for you. We just moved into this neighbourhood too. What I do is keep in touch and visit my old friends often. I have to believe there are some mother's out there that aren't this way. Hopefully there will be some diamonds on the rough out there. Yes and then there is the whole sobriety thing! I hadn't even thought about that. One of my friends who is a mom does a book club. I was thinking of taking a life drawing course.. Personally though, I think I might hope to make some friends with people who aren't parents just for conversational reasons. Yeah, it's not easy, I personally find this part of life to be very isolating. Sorry I couldn't off any decent advice, I just wanted to say I that I can relate! It's tough out there.
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,580
Well...I'm a woman...and I love ya! No, I don't have kids...but all in my closest (a la sex in the city/brat pack) gaggle of gal pals do. They're awesome. I've been blessed to have them since highschool.
One barely touches a drink, one is currently in rehab and one...well, the barely drinker is keepin' an eye as her wine consumption is up...way up. And well..ya there is me...who ya know.
They are all fine women...but probably not your typical mommy-club sorts. Perhaps they were when the kids were wee. I'm older so the kids are in highschool..if not graduated.
Yes..there are women who make me cringe. Met a lot of men who have too. And yes, we can be our own worst enemy (meow, meow, meow)..
But alot of us are fabulous...
Troubled? Broken in some places...but fabulous.
Ever watch the now cancelled "New Adventures of Old Christine?" with Julia Louis Dreyfuss? Sadly I related very much with Julia's wine swaddled character...and I thought the show was sadly hysterical.
But there was the two blonde mommy's she struggled with at her boy's schools. They were awful. That's who comes to my mind when I read your thread.
In my mind...you will socialize with sassy, intelligent women just fine...sober. In fact, way, way better (birds of feather...flock together).
One barely touches a drink, one is currently in rehab and one...well, the barely drinker is keepin' an eye as her wine consumption is up...way up. And well..ya there is me...who ya know.
They are all fine women...but probably not your typical mommy-club sorts. Perhaps they were when the kids were wee. I'm older so the kids are in highschool..if not graduated.
Yes..there are women who make me cringe. Met a lot of men who have too. And yes, we can be our own worst enemy (meow, meow, meow)..
But alot of us are fabulous...
Troubled? Broken in some places...but fabulous.
Ever watch the now cancelled "New Adventures of Old Christine?" with Julia Louis Dreyfuss? Sadly I related very much with Julia's wine swaddled character...and I thought the show was sadly hysterical.
But there was the two blonde mommy's she struggled with at her boy's schools. They were awful. That's who comes to my mind when I read your thread.
In my mind...you will socialize with sassy, intelligent women just fine...sober. In fact, way, way better (birds of feather...flock together).
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Join Date: Aug 2003
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I was a military wife for many, many years and that involved being pulled out of one situation and moved into another, over and over again. In my thirties, my low self-esteem played havoc with relationships with other women. I had friends, but was also questioning myself. In recovery, I have had a few amazing friendships with women who were mentors and teachers. This happened when I let go of expectations of myself and others and where the relationship would go. I just let things unfold and it worked.
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: South Shore, MA
Posts: 348
Hi there! Mom of three, I am 43. I have found more and more that the few other girls I relate to are all I need! I Found myself saying no to the mom crews that just flat out did not gel with me. The older I get, the less I care about the competition and actually get a kick out of the ridiculousness. I am known to speak my mind and go where I want and NOT go where I want, that was the secret! It is all garbage and the women who operate like that are insecure, vapid and wildly uninteresting. Being in a circle like that can't be satisfying or comforting in any way. They usually implode with cannabalism anyway. Walk your own way, beat your drum and hold your head high. In ten years you won't give a rats ass!
pray for strength
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: New England
Posts: 2,414
Sincere thanks for all of your responses. I have been thinking so much about this subject (socializing and time allocation) and I keep arriving at the same place. No matter where I find myself geographically, there is just so little time for certain conversation and energy expenditure.
As usual with every story, sometimes the things we leave out or do not say are the most essential. One of the biggest motivators for me to stop drinking is so I can start EMDR therapy with my therapist - it is her specialty, but we could not start until I stopped drinking completely. I'm not really sure if this is standard, but I have read and heard about the value of EMDR and really need to change some thought patterns at this point in life.
Two weeks after choosing to commit to sober-ness on my own after really long deliberation (and joining SR), it came about that I cannot drink at all, ever, probably for the rest of my life, regardless of my choice. When it was determined, my first thought was "Are you eff-ing kidding me?". My second thought was "Does this change things and if so, how?"
Then I told myself not to overthink and let it go. NuuDawn - on your post about loneliness I wrote that sobriety for me is not lonely...then realized that, no matter what I tell myself, this is not the entire truth. Somehow making the decision to commit to sobriety on my own feels one way and then having the decision made for me feels another...and loneliness is definitely involved with the latter. Loneliness and isolation is hell on earth to me. I fight it and do everything in my power, within reason, to avoid it. Even spending time with people that I really do not wish to spend time with - I hate to admit it. And at the same time I feel desperate for connection with peers at this time of life. It is in fact like a tennis match in my head.
Yesterday at the 'baby shower/ladies luncheon' when I reached for a sparkling water in the tub right next to the chardonnay and prosecco, I thought to myself that a glass would make the baby shower so much easier. WRONG! It would just keep me frozen in time that-is-a-wasting. And the alcohol argument begins anew...clouding the real issues. No matter what I tell myself this argument is still here! And I hate that it takes alcohol to tolerate a bunch of ladies (who help keep me from feeling lonely?).
Yes. I have issues. No. I am not terminally unique (love that phrase...I read it on SR when I was newer and thought it was hilarious...that we alcoholics all suffer from 'terminal uniqueness'). There are just a bunch of thought patterns that have to change and I am really trying to figure out what these patterns are that cause so much distress.
Ahhhhh. Ok. You all are real sports to contribute to helping me change my perspective. I have responses to the great questions or statements raised in each post. But right now just thank you very much...this helps me greatly. I'm hoping to be able to contribute to others' plights as well as asking for input so this whole thing is a give and take...and not just a take. But right now I am just grateful for the support**.
**and my brain is truly mush since putting the 'ding-dongs' to bed (and from the deep thoughts). No lie.
As usual with every story, sometimes the things we leave out or do not say are the most essential. One of the biggest motivators for me to stop drinking is so I can start EMDR therapy with my therapist - it is her specialty, but we could not start until I stopped drinking completely. I'm not really sure if this is standard, but I have read and heard about the value of EMDR and really need to change some thought patterns at this point in life.
Two weeks after choosing to commit to sober-ness on my own after really long deliberation (and joining SR), it came about that I cannot drink at all, ever, probably for the rest of my life, regardless of my choice. When it was determined, my first thought was "Are you eff-ing kidding me?". My second thought was "Does this change things and if so, how?"
Then I told myself not to overthink and let it go. NuuDawn - on your post about loneliness I wrote that sobriety for me is not lonely...then realized that, no matter what I tell myself, this is not the entire truth. Somehow making the decision to commit to sobriety on my own feels one way and then having the decision made for me feels another...and loneliness is definitely involved with the latter. Loneliness and isolation is hell on earth to me. I fight it and do everything in my power, within reason, to avoid it. Even spending time with people that I really do not wish to spend time with - I hate to admit it. And at the same time I feel desperate for connection with peers at this time of life. It is in fact like a tennis match in my head.
Yesterday at the 'baby shower/ladies luncheon' when I reached for a sparkling water in the tub right next to the chardonnay and prosecco, I thought to myself that a glass would make the baby shower so much easier. WRONG! It would just keep me frozen in time that-is-a-wasting. And the alcohol argument begins anew...clouding the real issues. No matter what I tell myself this argument is still here! And I hate that it takes alcohol to tolerate a bunch of ladies (who help keep me from feeling lonely?).
Yes. I have issues. No. I am not terminally unique (love that phrase...I read it on SR when I was newer and thought it was hilarious...that we alcoholics all suffer from 'terminal uniqueness'). There are just a bunch of thought patterns that have to change and I am really trying to figure out what these patterns are that cause so much distress.
Ahhhhh. Ok. You all are real sports to contribute to helping me change my perspective. I have responses to the great questions or statements raised in each post. But right now just thank you very much...this helps me greatly. I'm hoping to be able to contribute to others' plights as well as asking for input so this whole thing is a give and take...and not just a take. But right now I am just grateful for the support**.
**and my brain is truly mush since putting the 'ding-dongs' to bed (and from the deep thoughts). No lie.
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Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,534
Just my two cents' worth, because I completely understand what you are saying and have been in your shoes: (oh, yeah, 46, mom of 4), I think you haven't found your group yet. Easy for me to say, I know. But when we moved to our current city 15 years ago I felt like I was surrounded by Stepford Wives. I just couldn't make a connection. A few years later we got new next door neighbors and I really hit it off with the mom. She, in turn, introduced me to several women who she had become friends with (she is a friend magnet) and suddenly I had my circle. She moved a few years ago, but all of us who are still here are still friends, maybe not as tight as when she was here, but we have each others' backs.
There are times when I have to spend an evening or afternoon in a group of women who are not "my people" and it exhausts me and I can't stand it. So it's not like I changed a whole lot from 15 years ago. I was just lucky enough to find a few women who I connect with.
I hope that will happen for you.
There are times when I have to spend an evening or afternoon in a group of women who are not "my people" and it exhausts me and I can't stand it. So it's not like I changed a whole lot from 15 years ago. I was just lucky enough to find a few women who I connect with.
I hope that will happen for you.
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Midwest
Posts: 9,029
You said a lot LTV that really resonates with me. So did everyone who posted on this thread. We all crave something in terms of friendship and belonging, even if we drank in isolation like I did. But EJ said something that I have found as I've gotten older...you will find that at some point you don't give a rats butt for what people are thinking and you start finding it a lot easier to say NO. That is one of the joys of getting older.
I can see you as Nuudawn sees you. I think you are very smart, interesting and have a sense of humor. You convey an air of being an easy, confident and thoughtful conversationalist. I'd probably be the person who bugs the heck out of you if we talked in real life, or is that my own insecurity talking? Because it is still there. Hard to let go of but that is what is the common thread. We need to weed out the things that aren't working. The people who aren't working. The personality traits that do us no good. But they are comfortable to us like alcohol was until it causes pain and we cling to them for security.
A lot of food for thought (colloquialism). Thank you for starting this thread.
I can see you as Nuudawn sees you. I think you are very smart, interesting and have a sense of humor. You convey an air of being an easy, confident and thoughtful conversationalist. I'd probably be the person who bugs the heck out of you if we talked in real life, or is that my own insecurity talking? Because it is still there. Hard to let go of but that is what is the common thread. We need to weed out the things that aren't working. The people who aren't working. The personality traits that do us no good. But they are comfortable to us like alcohol was until it causes pain and we cling to them for security.
A lot of food for thought (colloquialism). Thank you for starting this thread.
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Ashburn, VA
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Hi, LTV!
I really detest standard homemaker chit-chat, too. When I have to participate, I sit quietly and nod and smile. When I speak, a lot of times my best efforts fall flat and cause that too-familiar awkward pause!
So I just stay quiet and wait out the torture!
I have given up finding a real friend in my daily life. I have fond acquaintances, but nobody I can really share with, sad to say. I don't mean to sound "terminally unique," either--but most women just don't have a category for me. I find their worlds very narrow.
I have always found men much more refreshing: their topics are more interesting, and they are so much less petty.
"People who bore one another should meet seldom; people who interest one another, often.”
― C.S. Lewis, The Four Loves
I really detest standard homemaker chit-chat, too. When I have to participate, I sit quietly and nod and smile. When I speak, a lot of times my best efforts fall flat and cause that too-familiar awkward pause!
So I just stay quiet and wait out the torture!
I have given up finding a real friend in my daily life. I have fond acquaintances, but nobody I can really share with, sad to say. I don't mean to sound "terminally unique," either--but most women just don't have a category for me. I find their worlds very narrow.
I have always found men much more refreshing: their topics are more interesting, and they are so much less petty.
"People who bore one another should meet seldom; people who interest one another, often.”
― C.S. Lewis, The Four Loves
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Central Massachusetts
Posts: 2,051
Saw some of this when the kids were younger and my wife hung out with the other moms. She never had a problem because she's pretty socially adept and doesn't take s**t from people. However, I did get to observe both first and second hand those moms who got shut out. The common factors were:
- they talked only about themselves
- they bragged about their family of origin or husband
- they were overly competitive
- they never asked others how they were doing
- their kids were brats
- they talked only about themselves
- they bragged about their family of origin or husband
- they were overly competitive
- they never asked others how they were doing
- their kids were brats
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
One more thought series, LTV. I think you've provided some important pieces of info in your last post on this thread. It sounds like you maybe overthink a bit the social life and how/why you can or cannot connect with these people around you. Maybe you also have a fear of rejection even from people you don't actually like that much. See, this is why it might work better to find mates you truly connect with, instead of who's just given...
I agree with your last perception that it may be best to work on these issues that bother you and cause the underlying current. It's extremely common to have past events or issues that drive us into thoughts and behaviors that cause repetitive distress. There have been a lot of discussions about similar things on these boards also. It really is worth addressing these things in therapy - I'm just in the process of doing a form of this myself, although my issue is probably quite different from yours, at least it manifests differently from what you have described. I suggest that you focus on these things for a while more than you would want to focus on thinking about your social life and what others think. You may see these in a different light later.
The EMDR thing is quite intriguing, in this case for the neurobiologist in me I have never tried but am quite interested in how it works. Good luck with it!!
Also, what you are saying about your brain being "mush" (I read similar things from you in various posts) may be related to the fact that you have a generally very active mind and you like to stimulate it even further. If this rings true, perhaps you would benefit a lot from learning new ways to relax now, without drugs and alcohol, naturally. This area is definitely also an issue for me, has always been. I often find it very difficult to do this, to let go of my thoughts and constant analyzing, and the curiosity that drives it... it's hard in part because these features have also served me so well in many areas throughout my life... but they also get in the way often. So I have to work on this if I want to make serious improvements in my life. Think less.... ha!
Oh, and congrats on your sober time and on the ability to say "no" to the drink so firmly, great job!
I agree with your last perception that it may be best to work on these issues that bother you and cause the underlying current. It's extremely common to have past events or issues that drive us into thoughts and behaviors that cause repetitive distress. There have been a lot of discussions about similar things on these boards also. It really is worth addressing these things in therapy - I'm just in the process of doing a form of this myself, although my issue is probably quite different from yours, at least it manifests differently from what you have described. I suggest that you focus on these things for a while more than you would want to focus on thinking about your social life and what others think. You may see these in a different light later.
The EMDR thing is quite intriguing, in this case for the neurobiologist in me
I have never tried but am quite interested in how it works. Good luck with it!!Also, what you are saying about your brain being "mush" (I read similar things from you in various posts) may be related to the fact that you have a generally very active mind and you like to stimulate it even further. If this rings true, perhaps you would benefit a lot from learning new ways to relax now, without drugs and alcohol, naturally. This area is definitely also an issue for me, has always been. I often find it very difficult to do this, to let go of my thoughts and constant analyzing, and the curiosity that drives it... it's hard in part because these features have also served me so well in many areas throughout my life... but they also get in the way often. So I have to work on this if I want to make serious improvements in my life. Think less.... ha!
Oh, and congrats on your sober time and on the ability to say "no" to the drink so firmly, great job!
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Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Leeds
Posts: 399
My girlfriend gets crap from other girls all the time. Keep in mind, she's pretty much the nicest person you could ever meet. Like ridiculously nice, to the point you sometime have to tell her to put herself first now and again.
But at work occasionally she'll get crap from the mean girls clique, just like she was in high school. I don't know what fuels people to act that way, maybe because she's friends with the guys at work because they have a lot in common (she likes video games, books, music, sports etc while those girls only interest seems to be themselves).
Guys don't seem as bad, there are still the same amount of A******s in both genders, but you act that way as a guy, a bigger, tougher guy is eventually going to break your jaw.
But at work occasionally she'll get crap from the mean girls clique, just like she was in high school. I don't know what fuels people to act that way, maybe because she's friends with the guys at work because they have a lot in common (she likes video games, books, music, sports etc while those girls only interest seems to be themselves).
Guys don't seem as bad, there are still the same amount of A******s in both genders, but you act that way as a guy, a bigger, tougher guy is eventually going to break your jaw.
Left the bottle behind 4/16/2015
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: NC
Posts: 1,416
It's just interesting to me, as a man, reading about the dynamics between women. I have always gotten along better with females than males, but I guess they act differently toward me than they do to each other. Having 2 young daughters, I notice the interaction between them quite often. As Mr. Ben said, 2 guys will just start brawling and get it out of their system while women will slowly rip each other to shreds. A man might break another man's face, but a woman will slowly insert a knife into your heart.
Then give it a few twists.
Then give it a few twists.
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