Beaten Over The Head With The Big Book?
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Beaten Over The Head With The Big Book?
Hi all, I'm new here. I have recently ended a relationship with a recovering alcoholic that I was in for over a year. It has been the most chaotic and turbulent year I can remember. I've browsed around the forums a bit and have identified with many stories. My ex BF is considerably older than I am, and I'm not sure how much that plays into the dynamics of the relationship. He pursued me initially, and I said no several times before I said yes and went out with him. He was very persistent and determined to get me, and this wooed me a little I suppose. He openly and honestly shared some of his past with me and let me see his vulnerable side (I thought), and we had great chemistry, so I fell for him. I so admired that he had beaten his addiction and was helping others. As the relationship progressed, I noticed that he was very self centered. It's all about him, all the time. More troubling, we tended to fall into these fights and I never knew how they even started. Anytime I would try to say anything, especially to say how I was feeling, I was accused of "starting an argument," and told that "arguing and fault finding must be avoided like the plague." The thing is, I've had some counseling in my life, and I know how to make "I" statements. Even when I was sure I was communicating effectively, he could twist everything around. He perceived insults from things I couldn’t even imagine to be insulting. He would tell me something I said was “a terrible thing to say to someone,” and I would be completely flabbergasted. I see from the stories I've read thus far that that isn't uncommon. Everything was my fault. I began to believe the things he said, like I had poor social skills and that’s why we fought, because of the things I would say. I was put on a sort of relationship probation—many times—and told that if I didn't change for the better, our relationship was over. Terrified to lose him, I tried everything I could think of to "fix" myself: I talked to my counselor, bought books, went to Al Anon (he wanted me to), etc. He was always trying to “improve” me: he wanted me to change my hair, my glasses (get LASIK), my jeans, my shoes, my earrings, etc. If I resisted, it turned into a fight, so I pretty much did what he wanted. I found myself not feeling accepted for who I was, though he would deny that he was trying to change me. There was never any physical abuse, or sexual abuse, but I ended up feeling very badly about myself. Once I told him that he made me feel about two inches tall, and he said, “well, that’s YOUR issue.” It almost feels like he was one person when he pursued me and wanted me, and then when he got me, everything changed and now I was always chasing him. After our fights, he would be withdrawn and wouldn’t speak to me for days. I lived in constant fear of the next emotional turmoil and stress. He actually ended the relationship almost a month ago (because I’m a “psycho” and he just can’t deal with me anymore).
Here’s the baffling thing to me: he has over 20 years sobriety. He goes to AA meetings several times a week, has a few sponsees, can quote the Big Book better than anyone I’ve ever known, and has not had a drop of alcohol in over two decades (I do believe this to be true). He thinks he is always right and that he is some beacon of recovery, sent to help those who struggle. It almost sounds like he’s narcissistic to me. In fact, a quick google search of “dry drunk” is what led me to this forum. I have continued going to Al Anon—for ME—and what I’m learning about recovery doesn’t seem to quite fit with what I have seen and experienced in his life. I guess I’m wondering, can he be a dry drunk, even though he thinks he’s in true recovery? I have had so much Big Book quoted to me that I feel beaten over the head with it. How can he have all this AA in him and still act like this? How can I trust Al Anon if this is what recovery looks like? Any help and insight would be greatly appreciated.
Here’s the baffling thing to me: he has over 20 years sobriety. He goes to AA meetings several times a week, has a few sponsees, can quote the Big Book better than anyone I’ve ever known, and has not had a drop of alcohol in over two decades (I do believe this to be true). He thinks he is always right and that he is some beacon of recovery, sent to help those who struggle. It almost sounds like he’s narcissistic to me. In fact, a quick google search of “dry drunk” is what led me to this forum. I have continued going to Al Anon—for ME—and what I’m learning about recovery doesn’t seem to quite fit with what I have seen and experienced in his life. I guess I’m wondering, can he be a dry drunk, even though he thinks he’s in true recovery? I have had so much Big Book quoted to me that I feel beaten over the head with it. How can he have all this AA in him and still act like this? How can I trust Al Anon if this is what recovery looks like? Any help and insight would be greatly appreciated.
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Join Date: Apr 2008
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It's possible he's just a jerk and it has nothing to do with alcohol. There is a saying that when you wring out the alcohol from an asshat, you still have an asshat. He sounds like a typical abuser to me; maybe not physical abuse, but definitely emotional and verbal abuse.
He's given you a gift by breaking up. You deserve better.
He's given you a gift by breaking up. You deserve better.
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Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Lakeside, Ca
Posts: 10,208
bore them to death ???????????
Originally Posted by CarryThatWeight 
I have had so much Big Book quoted to me that I feel beaten over the head with it.
maybe in early sobriety I needed the Big Book up side my head
for due to the booze I was a very slow learner
but
ones who are obsessed with any Program (for too long)
seems are only yet feeding another addiction
I know plenty who live and breath AA
this makes life rough for normies around them
ones to be healthy should have the common sense
to recognize who they are with
when I'm with my AA friends I talk about AA often
when I'm with non AA friends I don't mention the Program often
with my wife -- I only share a very little AA and only at certain times
don't wish to cram my Program down anyone else's throat
or bore them to death with it
or expect them to also live by it
MM
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Join Date: May 2014
Location: NC
Posts: 117
He does sound like an asshat. It is true an alcoholic in recovery can go through dry drunk behavior. It's all about them, etc. But as they really work a program those behaviors start to subside. When my AH is thinking about drinking or not working a program he can have all those dry drunk behaviors. But they really SHOULD subside with working a program and real steps towards recovery.
The guy you describes sounds like he has A LOT more issues than alcohol. Find your running shoes, dust them off and don't look back.
The guy you describes sounds like he has A LOT more issues than alcohol. Find your running shoes, dust them off and don't look back.
Engineer Things; LOVE People
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,707
Sounds like some of the typical Mental Illness factors that tend to go along with A-land.
Takes some REAL deep self-character study and work for them to get better in that regard, and many never do.
Sounds like you and dandy nailed it pretty well with the Narcissist part.
If you wind up near this again, here is my top recommendation -- a little outside the bounds of Alanon >>>
Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get ... - Margalis Fjelstad - Google Books
Takes some REAL deep self-character study and work for them to get better in that regard, and many never do.
Sounds like you and dandy nailed it pretty well with the Narcissist part.
If you wind up near this again, here is my top recommendation -- a little outside the bounds of Alanon >>>
Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get ... - Margalis Fjelstad - Google Books
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 741
Alcoholics minus the alcohol = just the "icks" (sic).
Many in recovery - including my XAH - still carry their "icks" with them even after long term sobriety. Even when sober, he was/is controlling, belittling, manipulative, demanding and totally lacking in maturity. Sometimes that is just the best they can do without the alcohol and you have to either accept it or walk away.
Many in recovery - including my XAH - still carry their "icks" with them even after long term sobriety. Even when sober, he was/is controlling, belittling, manipulative, demanding and totally lacking in maturity. Sometimes that is just the best they can do without the alcohol and you have to either accept it or walk away.
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Location: Bklyn. NY
Posts: 1,859
Originally Posted by CarryThatWeight
He thinks he is always right and that he is some beacon of recovery, sent to help those who struggle. It almost sounds like he’s narcissistic to me. In fact, a quick google search of “dry drunk” is what led me to this forum. I have continued going to Al Anon—for ME—and what I’m learning about recovery doesn’t seem to quite fit with what I have seen and experienced in his life. I guess I’m wondering, can he be a dry drunk, even though he thinks he’s in true recovery? I have had so much Big Book quoted to me that I feel beaten over the head with it.
People who are able to be honest with themselves and truly work the 12 steps usually grow out of that stage. They become humbled, helpful people. They learn to listen to others, hear what people are saying, empathize, and communicate clearly. They work towards really being there for others, as opposed to feeding their ego. Certain other people become "famous" in AA for the way they sound, what they can parrot from the BB, and what it seems they know. That can be very attractive to a newcomer. Their ego gets fed, and they start to feed and live off it.
Good news is, as I already said, many grow out of that. I knew a guy when I was in early sobriety who actually got banned from qualifying at our homegroup. That can't (or shouldn't actually ever) be done, but they did it until they redecided at the next business meeting. He was absolutely bonkers about how things needed to be done, and was quick to direct people he felt needed direction. Told a kid once in front of the group that he wasn't really sober, because of something he shared regarding cough medicine (that's what made them decide to ban him). 30 years later he is one of the most loving, caring, understanding, light hearted people I know. A complete pleasure to be around. That's not an isolated incident either, I've seen a lot of really incredible transformations. If I really think about it, that's usually what happens. And of course there are the few that continue to be jerks.
Sounds like your guy might be one of them. Only time will tell. Only thing that really matters is that you're free from him, and can move forward now in a healthier direction.
Your pal isn't what AA is about IMO. But nobody in AA is perfect either. Most of us are simply doing our best to grow along the spiritual lines presented there.
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Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Lakeside, Ca
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recovered or still in recovery ??
best not to make AA yet another addiction
actually early members were recommended to
mix their AA with Church attendance and Bible studies
in the first meetings they had no Big Books
they read Bible pamphlets
MountainmanBob
While some A.A. members are balanced and do have a life of their own, far too many others make the recovery program and "being in recovery" their new lifestyle. Rather than recovering from alcoholism, and getting on with their lives, they plan to spend the rest of their lives "in recovery", and they have no goals in life other than to be "in recovery" and nurse their sobriety, and "work the program."
There is an immense difference between recognizing that you cannot ever drink alcohol again, for the rest of your life, because you will go nonlinear and get re-addicted if you do, and spending the rest of your life "in recovery", declaring that you cannot ever recover. The difference is that in the first case, you do recover...
Some people are so obsessed with being in Alcoholics Anonymous that they have to go to a meeting every day, or they feel like their life will go to pieces. Some people do two or three meetings a day. For them, Alcoholics Anonymous is simply a new addiction, and that is not at all healthy. Bill Wilson even declared in the Big Book that membership in A.A. was a new dependency, to replace dependency on alcohol.
I've talked with ex-wives of alcoholics who stayed married to their husbands while they were drinking, but who had to divorce them after the guys joined Alcoholics Anonymous and became obsessed with "the program." The women said that they had to get divorced, because they didn't even have husbands any more; they had lost their husbands to Alcoholics Anonymous.
Even A.A. founder Bill Wilson reported the problem:
Helping others is the foundation stone of your recovery. A kindly act once in a while isn't enough. You have to act the Good Samaritan every day, if need be. ... Your wife may sometimes say she is neglected.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, Chapter 7, Working With Others, page 97.
After the husband joins A.A., the wife may become discontented, even highly resentful that Alcoholics Anonymous has done the very thing that all her years of devotion had failed to do. Her husband may become so wrapped up in A.A. and his new friends that he is inconsiderately away from home more than when he drank.
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 118.
actually early members were recommended to
mix their AA with Church attendance and Bible studies
in the first meetings they had no Big Books
they read Bible pamphlets
MountainmanBob
While some A.A. members are balanced and do have a life of their own, far too many others make the recovery program and "being in recovery" their new lifestyle. Rather than recovering from alcoholism, and getting on with their lives, they plan to spend the rest of their lives "in recovery", and they have no goals in life other than to be "in recovery" and nurse their sobriety, and "work the program."
There is an immense difference between recognizing that you cannot ever drink alcohol again, for the rest of your life, because you will go nonlinear and get re-addicted if you do, and spending the rest of your life "in recovery", declaring that you cannot ever recover. The difference is that in the first case, you do recover...
Some people are so obsessed with being in Alcoholics Anonymous that they have to go to a meeting every day, or they feel like their life will go to pieces. Some people do two or three meetings a day. For them, Alcoholics Anonymous is simply a new addiction, and that is not at all healthy. Bill Wilson even declared in the Big Book that membership in A.A. was a new dependency, to replace dependency on alcohol.
I've talked with ex-wives of alcoholics who stayed married to their husbands while they were drinking, but who had to divorce them after the guys joined Alcoholics Anonymous and became obsessed with "the program." The women said that they had to get divorced, because they didn't even have husbands any more; they had lost their husbands to Alcoholics Anonymous.
Even A.A. founder Bill Wilson reported the problem:
Helping others is the foundation stone of your recovery. A kindly act once in a while isn't enough. You have to act the Good Samaritan every day, if need be. ... Your wife may sometimes say she is neglected.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, Chapter 7, Working With Others, page 97.
After the husband joins A.A., the wife may become discontented, even highly resentful that Alcoholics Anonymous has done the very thing that all her years of devotion had failed to do. Her husband may become so wrapped up in A.A. and his new friends that he is inconsiderately away from home more than when he drank.
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 118.
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There was never any physical abuse, or sexual abuse, but I ended up feeling very badly about myself.
A person can be sober and still be an a$$hole--sounds like this guy is.
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Join Date: May 2014
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Thank you, everyone, for posting your thoughts and insights. It feels great to be validated a bit--I'm NOT crazy after all! When you live with the constant twisting of words and intentions, everything gets distorted. He used to tell me that everything he said was for my own good, that he only had the best intentions toward me. That anytime I got my feelings hurt, I had misunderstood him, was wrong, and it was a symptom of MY sickness. It's only in this past month that I have had some space from him and been going to Al Anon, talking to my sponsor and a counselor, plus reading your stories, that I've begun to see that I needn't necessarily take everything he said about me (all my character defects) as the absolute truth. I do have defects, like everyone else, but I do believe my social skills are ok and I'm not a terrible person. I actually have some positive attributes too--who knew? So thus begins the road back to a healthy level of self esteem. I'm still interested in learning more about "dry drunks," manipulation, narcissism, and the general "isms" of alcoholics; not to bash alcoholics (because it sounds like my ex is not the norm for all alcoholics in recovery), but so that I can avoid getting into a similar relationship in the future. Thank you all very much for your help. I'm very glad to have found this forum. Hammer, I am definitely going to check out that book. Thanks!
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Join Date: May 2014
Location: NC
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You are doing an AWESOME job!! Learning, growing, being open! Very, very nice work! Something that through the years seemed to help me when it comes to getting involved with another unhealthy relationship; whether it be a friend, co-worker... whoever, if the hairs stand up on the back of my neck it's a sign. You will start to sense early, early on who the manipulators, users (meaning people who will use you), narcissists are. Trust your gut....you really do have what it takes! 
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Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 94
Dear Carry(that weight) Please put your burden down. and get a happier moniker. You deserve MORE out of life than trying to please someone who does not give you good vibes. Get a copy of "Straight Talk" with Dolly Parton and James Woods. it will make you laugh. "Toot your Own Horn or nobody is gonna know you're coming" or something like that. also one of my favorite quotes
Frederick Salomon Perls
“I do my thing and you do your thing.
I am not in this world to live up to your expectations,
And you are not in this world to live up to mine.
You are you, and I am I, and if by chance we find each other, it's beautiful.
If not, it can't be helped.”
Namaste, Zig
― Frederick Salomon Perls
Frederick Salomon Perls
“I do my thing and you do your thing.
I am not in this world to live up to your expectations,
And you are not in this world to live up to mine.
You are you, and I am I, and if by chance we find each other, it's beautiful.
If not, it can't be helped.”
Namaste, Zig
― Frederick Salomon Perls
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Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 22
OMG! I think I was married to your exBF's brother! LOL I was married for 2.5 years and the whole time it was a complete mindf**k and I was left going what the hell just happened to me??? Mine was sober for supposedly 17 years??! And started drinking again shortly after we got married?? At first after leaving him, I just was trying to figure out what the heck was wrong with him...now I don't care so much and I've decided he's got a mental illness and drinks to self-medicate and is just an asshat in general. I wasted enough time thinking about him...he's just not worth it...bring on my healing!!!!
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this is why its called alcoholism the ism part standing for i, self, me, leave the booze down just leaves the ism part to deal with and this is the hard part as it needs self honesty an ability that no one really wants to be like. as we live in a make belive world were we want people to like us so will be the perfect person to the outside world or to attract women or women to do it to men as its a 2 way thing
self honesty is walking up to a girl and saying i am an alcholic and i am not really all this sweet talking charmer you meet here i am really a nut job at times when i can not get my own way
i am selfish and i will make your life hell if you let me take control of you
i will do it slowly at first but in the end i will have you in a hopeless state that you will leave me and hate me
now who wants a date with me ??? : ) come on ladies dont all fight over me to much lol
now there is hope but only if he faces himself by doing the steps honestly and trying to live with people honestly but most importantly trying to live a good life at home taking care of his partner and family first before he looks for medals in aa
dry drunk is the term you used and its true thats all it is really and will never change unless he does something and the mading part is the help is there right under his nose but he is blinded at the moment
oh ps
i am a lot different today than i have been but i can still have my moments if i dont get my own way but i can normally see when that kicks in or if i dont see it my sponsor would of and gave me a direction to see it
the worse thing i see around the fellowships is 2 alcoholics new in the rooms men and a women thinking its a great idea for them to get together to help each other but really they just want either the sex or to break the bordom of living alone so they fall in love trying to help each other and then the bad behaviors kick in and bingo before you know it you have either 1 of them back on the booze or both of them and sadly i have seen people die from this as they get drunk feeling so sorry for themselves etc and end up killing themselves, thats why we say its a killer illness as it really is a mental illness as well as a spiritual one and physical
self honesty is walking up to a girl and saying i am an alcholic and i am not really all this sweet talking charmer you meet here i am really a nut job at times when i can not get my own way
i am selfish and i will make your life hell if you let me take control of you
i will do it slowly at first but in the end i will have you in a hopeless state that you will leave me and hate me
now who wants a date with me ??? : ) come on ladies dont all fight over me to much lol
now there is hope but only if he faces himself by doing the steps honestly and trying to live with people honestly but most importantly trying to live a good life at home taking care of his partner and family first before he looks for medals in aa
dry drunk is the term you used and its true thats all it is really and will never change unless he does something and the mading part is the help is there right under his nose but he is blinded at the moment
oh ps
i am a lot different today than i have been but i can still have my moments if i dont get my own way but i can normally see when that kicks in or if i dont see it my sponsor would of and gave me a direction to see it
the worse thing i see around the fellowships is 2 alcoholics new in the rooms men and a women thinking its a great idea for them to get together to help each other but really they just want either the sex or to break the bordom of living alone so they fall in love trying to help each other and then the bad behaviors kick in and bingo before you know it you have either 1 of them back on the booze or both of them and sadly i have seen people die from this as they get drunk feeling so sorry for themselves etc and end up killing themselves, thats why we say its a killer illness as it really is a mental illness as well as a spiritual one and physical
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This sounds like the life I've lived for the last 6 years - especially that emotional turmoil should be avoided at all costs, doing things to avoid a blow up, making you feel 2 inches tall (I feel invisible), and the twisting/insults taken the wrong way. It's almost like going around and around in circles, but ALWAYS to his benefit, and never with apology.
The only major difference is that my AH is still using with the belief he doesn't have a prob and can quit anytime.
Mine also pursued me, I fell in love, everything was great - until all of the above started.
I thought I was crazy and unworthy, too. The women's shelter calls his behavior "crazy making," and he will not only make you feel crazy he could also be poisoning waters that you are crazy, nuts, etc.
It's really hard when someone you love rejects you and invalidates your feelings. No matter how much you are supposed no not care, mind your own biz, detach, care for yourself. It hurts, it really does, regardless, and that's what really sucks. Anyway - We share you aren't "allowed" to have any relationship issues without punishment. If I bring up a valid concern mine will make me feel like he's just not going to give me the privelege of loving me of I don't stop "starting fights ALL the time." Once a month, at best, but I'll still get rolling eyes and let the lawyering begin. Maybe I should get representation? His twisting and manipulation leaves me feeling bereft and empty, worse off than when I started.
He's drinking on the garage again. Lucky me! I get to relax and read the Game of Thrones series. I could care less anymore. Do it, have fun, but don't expect me to like you very much. I'm so tired. I hope I'm making sense! Long day with not much help.
The only major difference is that my AH is still using with the belief he doesn't have a prob and can quit anytime.
Mine also pursued me, I fell in love, everything was great - until all of the above started.
I thought I was crazy and unworthy, too. The women's shelter calls his behavior "crazy making," and he will not only make you feel crazy he could also be poisoning waters that you are crazy, nuts, etc.
It's really hard when someone you love rejects you and invalidates your feelings. No matter how much you are supposed no not care, mind your own biz, detach, care for yourself. It hurts, it really does, regardless, and that's what really sucks. Anyway - We share you aren't "allowed" to have any relationship issues without punishment. If I bring up a valid concern mine will make me feel like he's just not going to give me the privelege of loving me of I don't stop "starting fights ALL the time." Once a month, at best, but I'll still get rolling eyes and let the lawyering begin. Maybe I should get representation? His twisting and manipulation leaves me feeling bereft and empty, worse off than when I started.
He's drinking on the garage again. Lucky me! I get to relax and read the Game of Thrones series. I could care less anymore. Do it, have fun, but don't expect me to like you very much. I'm so tired. I hope I'm making sense! Long day with not much help.
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