Codie or parent?

Old 05-13-2014, 04:05 AM
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Codie or parent?

DD15 is wicked intelligent. And failing freshman year of HS with a loud bang. I've managed to get one profoundly gifted kid graduated from high school but this one is questionable. She has no internal motivation. She enjoys classes and teachers are telling me they're frustrated because she gets things quickly, she simply doesn't do homework (lies about it to me) and fails tests even though she know the materials. One teacher wants her IQ tested and on an IEP because she thinks it's got to do with the way she learns. DD herself volunteers that she's just lazy and doesn't see the point of school.

She has zero confidence after having been her father's emotional garbage can her entire life. In the year she's been away from him, she's grown and stabilized but also rebelled and simply won't do the work necessary.

School says she has the option of doing a fifth year of HS. My parents think this is a good option - less pressure, give her more time to work through her emotional garbage. Her therapist is pissed, says "she's never talked about having any problems with school and I'm frankly wondering if she's successfully lied to me for almost a year."

Husband has another take - he says I may simply need to show her the natural consequences of her actions and tell her she has four years (including summer school) to graduate with our full support; after that, she will move out, support herself, and, if she hasn't yet finished HS, it's up to her to find a way to do it.

I'm too upset to think straight. The idea of kicking a kid out of the house when she has one year left of HS breaks my heart and goes against every fiber of my mom being. But I have to admit I'm not sure if this feeling is based in good parental love or codependency?

She is the one kid who has taken on her father's way of handling conflict - screaming, cursing, shouting people down and calling them names. At the same time, she has the biggest heart of all my kids.

I am exhausted. I told my husband yesterday that she is taking almost as much energy from me as her father did. And that I'm neglecting myself and my health and my needs and half-assign my job NOT TO MENTION putting the other kids on the back burner because I don't have enough energy for all of them.

Any insights from those of you who have had children with an A or those of you who are ACOAs? I can see rationally that the pressure of "you have three years to get your sh*t together" may be exactly what she needs - but I'm afraid I won't be able to follow through on the threat of kicking her out at 18 if she doesn't (and I also think she knows this).

Help? Thoughts? Ideas?
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Old 05-13-2014, 05:03 AM
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"Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same."

(lillamy)
I hate so much you are going through this - trying to balance what is helping and what is enabling with our children has always been the hardest area for me.
The statement above from your signature line truly sums it up.

I know for my girls, I had to start with a balance of some type of accountability and some consequences for their actions or lack of actions for them to understand this is how life is going to work as an adult. I didn't start this soon enough for them and it caused problems when I started this slowly in their teenage & early adult years but now we have seemed to find a semi happy medium on what works for us in our relationships.

Mine are all grown & on their own and we are doing this again with our granddaughter & I'm trying to remember these principles.

Maybe her therapist could offer some suggestions too? Especially since now she has the understanding that your daughter may not have been completely upfront with her about all that is going on with her school life ?

Just remember, today if you decide to do things one way and it doesn't seem to be working, you always have the option to try something different tomorrow ~ you & your daughter have choices & options.

Wishing you both the best
and
please take good care of you!!
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Old 05-13-2014, 05:48 AM
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Lillamy - i know this experience.

My two oldest children are quite bright but this past years has been tough. They both aren't sure if they will pass their years.

For where we live, it isn't uncommon to repeat a year and they are both in advanced programs, which makes passing itself an achievement. So you can't compare this school system to the US.

However. They are both capable of far more. Now that the semester is finishing up, they are both receiving much better grades. The whole demeanor of our home has improved this spring and they are taking more responsibility for themselves.

Anyway. As this relates to your high schooler. I don't threaten to kick them out for bad grades. I think talking to a child about what you may do in 3 years is pointless. Take the Al Anon language. One day at a time. Your child needs to do better today. What can you do today to support her? See if you can get some honesty from her. If she isn't opening up to her therapist then something isn't right.

I wouldn't mix codie and parenting. Your child is a child. They change more easily and suddenly than an adult. Definitely make this an issue, expect more from her, open the lines of communication any way you can. Maybe she wants more attention from you. Maybe she just needs to wake up.

You will figure it out. Or she will. Then the tide will change and it'll be something else to worry about entirely.

Isn't parenting always a growth opportunity?
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Old 05-13-2014, 05:59 AM
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Thank you guys. Parenting is not for wimps. Right now I'm feeling pretty defeated and useless. My husband is reminding me that the fact that only one of my kids is floundering is a miracle and that it's not my fault.

I find it hard to accept that. I can laugh at myself but the belief is so deeply rooted in me that if you do everything right, you get a successful result. Doesn't matter that I know rationally that isn't always the case. I still gut level believe it.
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Old 05-13-2014, 06:21 AM
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Hugs. My kids are way younger but I can't imagine how difficult it must be to watch your child put road blocks up in front of herself. I don't think you're being codie (said one codie to another, haha) I think you're a rightfully concerned parent. I hope you guys mutually come a a decision that will benefit her best.

Side note: there was a parenting article I read years ago about a therapist who moved out of the family home at 16 after receiving her GED and started attending college classes. She was smart but so bored that she was acting out. Being on her own and more independent was the only way she could stay on track. Let me see if I can go find the article. The idea sounded terrifying to me, but maybe that's similar to your daughter's personality/attitude.
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Old 05-13-2014, 06:22 AM
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Wow, my heart is aching for her just reading your post.... its like she has barricaded herself by building stone walls around her heart, locking herself in with all of her pain and keeping others out so that no one and nothing could ever hurt her more than she already hurts.

She sounds so much like my sister after my father passed away. He had only been sober for a few years prior to that, and she was only just starting to build a relationship with him when he got so suddenly sick and died. She was just getting ready for her senior year and the pain was just too great for her to manage; she wouldn't let go of it but she wouldn't let anybody all the way in to help her deal with it either. Her straight A, honor roll, college bound train came to a screeching halt and she nearly failed. She pulled it together enough to graduate but just barely - nothing could make her open up fully until she was good and ready and to be honest, it took her years and she still struggles. It's one of those emotional things where we refuse to see until we are ready or until our perspective shifts somehow so that we can see it differently. ((((hugs)))) I don't think there's a right/perfect answer, and I also don't think you're necessarily being Codie about it.
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Old 05-13-2014, 06:44 AM
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I am so sorry, lilamy. I have no advice as I'm in a similar boat. My ds16 is on honors/technical track and is currently failing two classes... one is the class that directly relates to his planned college major DD14 is also failing one class and has Ds in two other classes (was magna *** laude the first semester.) DS has been no contact with his father for almost this entire school year. DD sees him once a week at most. I'm not exactly sure what's going on with dd but my ds sounds very similar to your dd.... very bright but unwilling to do the busy work. In some classes, it is possible to not do the work and still maintain decent test grades... in others, you really aren't going to do well on the test if you don't at least occasionally practice the concepts (math particularly.) Nothing I've said thus far has gotten through to him. Like your dd, my ds is not honest with his therapist about his grades.

I am also really struggling with figuring out what my boundaries should be. Do I cut them slack because it's been a year of major upheaval? Or, should the requirements be the same? It is so hard

My only advice is that 3 years is a long time. It really is impossible to know where your dd will be then. Just because she's struggling right now does not mean she will be then. I would try not to stress about what will happen/where she will be then.

I'm sorry, lilamy Parenting is so hard!
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Old 05-13-2014, 07:08 AM
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Yeah, I'm sort of in a place (again) where I wish I didn't have to be an adult and try to have wise solutions to things. :sigh
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Old 05-14-2014, 08:10 AM
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I wouldn't expect that the three years out consequence would have any impact on current day behavior, especially for an unmotivated rebellious defiant 15yo. While I don't think it is necessarily wrong in philosophy I just don't think it will work.

I have a 13yo and 15yo. If they turn things in late or get poor grades and aren't doing homework - they get immediate consequences. Their 'currency' is technology and internet so I take it and/or block it. The 13yo sometimes has a crazy big tantrum about it but I don't actually need his cooperation so....... it is a good consequence in my house.

Also - if the teachers suggested possible LD's (Learning Disability) I would for sure follow up on that testing. LD's are different from IQ. It is not uncommon for kids with LD's to have higher than average IQ's. LD's are a game changer and if she has one that is unidentified - figuring that out can be a life changer. Her 'symptoms' are not uncommon with various LD's. It is worth the effort to explore that IMO.

I also totally get not always being able to draw the line between codie and parent. I am getting better at drawing that line. If I'm more invested in the process and/or outcome than they are - I'm over the line, if I'm tweaking consequences to assure their success, getting upset with the child complaining about anothers bad behavior (rocking the boat) versus the child with the actual bad behavior - I'm codie. If I'm all worked up and crazy over 'their' problem and they are just like - "yay - you be worried, stressed, and responsible for my outcomes - I'm just going to hang over here and relax." I'm in the wrong hula hoop. I need to re-think my approach. Love and Logic is great for that btw.
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Old 05-14-2014, 08:36 AM
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I was that kid to some degree - certainly smart enough to do well but did not meet or exceed EXPECTATIONS. my mom would say Theresa Renee if you would JUST apply yourself, you could <<fill in the blank>>. as an only child who already felt like I didn't measure up the message I heard was....you aren't good enough ON YOUR OWN, you must excel in order to be WORTHY.

my thinking was ok, we all agree I have the potential to do well....that IF I would just apply myself, I could get good grades etc. so what is the f'ing point? why bother? I had no desire to be a trained circus pony....and I failed to see how all A's would in any way enhance my life.

what if...she never does finish high school? or goes to college? or what if she just hasn't found the things that truly inspire her or provide enough challenge, for HER? i'm not saying just let her drop out at 15. but give deep consideration to what YOU truly want to happen here....
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Old 05-14-2014, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by AnvilheadII View Post
my mom would say Theresa Renee if you would JUST apply yourself, you could <<fill in the blank>>. as an only child who already felt like I didn't measure up the message I heard was....you aren't good enough ON YOUR OWN, you must excel in order to be WORTHY.
This is what has happened with my 16 yr old (with me.) It's also part of why I struggle with applying consequences. Especially since the kid has had one hell of a year.

Your post was thought provoking for me. It's hard as a parent to remember that 'good enough' grades (ie good enough to pass and get the credit) may be good enough for the kid.... Our goal of making the grades they are capable of... is just that - our goal. What we want. Grades, college, good income jobs may be what we 'think' will make them successful and happy.... In the end, those things have very little to do with happiness, self-fulfillment, and serenity. That all comes from within. If I have to choose between the two (success according to the world or success/happiness at the personal level), I will choose happiness and self-fulfillment for my child over the world's definition of success. You would think having only just learned that for my self, I would remember to apply it to my kids as well....
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Old 05-14-2014, 09:14 AM
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My younger daughter emotionally is the same as your freshman year of high school failer... I don't know what to do with her or myself most days...

I have a hard time drawing a line and holding her to limits bc I feel guilty that the emotional turmoil she is in is bc of her father and I...

My thoughts are this:

- Are there any alternative programs in your district? A program for kids who learn just fine but who need a different setting, more emotional support maybe? I worked in programs like this and the kids were all very bright but needed more 1:1 personal attention before they could get their sh*t together academically...

I think kids want to be successfully innately and I tend to think that her telling you she just doesn't care is maybe a cover for "I am scared, overwhelmed, emotional and its easier to say I don't care than say I don't know where to begin..."

That's just my gut approach to all kids as a teacher-- I have had students who sound a lot like your daughter and sometimes it's helping them make a non academic connection with a teacher that really makes a difference... Or finding an outlet within the school that they are connected to...

Maybe explore the alternative school options in your district and see if there is anything available?
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Old 05-14-2014, 09:21 AM
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lillamy---is that all the the therapist has to offer--that she wonders if your daughter successfully lied??!!! lillamy--I am seldom this direct--but, I feel soo sorry for your daughter! Freshman year is such a vulnerable time--and many personal issues come to roost at about this time for teen girls. Things that she is NEVER going to talk to you about--and maybe, not this particular therapist. She may not understand , herself, exactly what the "problem" is--or have the language to express it adequately. I can tell you one thing---her excuse is that she is lazy and doesn't see the point in school----that is a maneuver to avoid facing what the real issue/issues are--or to avoid telling what is really bothering her. I do remember this much from my adolescent developmental psych. course!!
lillamy--she isn't a bad kid; she is not hopeless; and, I think that your husband's suggestion is likely to make the situation worse, rather than better.
lillamy--I would suggest that you consult with an ADOLESCENT psychologist--one who only deals with adolescents. This can give you support as a parent of a teen and really find out what is really bothering or impeding your daughter. I wouldn't wait---it is better to get to the source of this earlier. The sooner; the better, really.

I am coming from my own experience....out of empathy for you and your daughter.
If I am too opinionated...please ignore me....

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Old 05-14-2014, 09:49 AM
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I wouldn't expect that the three years out consequence would have any impact on current day behavior, especially for an unmotivated rebellious defiant 15yo. While I don't think it is necessarily wrong in philosophy I just don't think it will work.
That's sort of where I'm at, too. Three years is AN ETERNITY when you're 15. Frankly, three years is an eternity when you're 50, too.

I do have doubts about her therapist's effectiveness -- I think part of why (I feel like) she is moving very cautiously is that she thinks DD was sexually abused by AXH, and she says that is the knot that DD needs to feel utterly comfortable to start untying.

No, she's not hopeless or a bad kid. She's a really good kid. She has a heart of gold and is compassionate without being codependent (much). She's supremely talented in arts and music, and that's where all her motivation is. She's never been tested for giftedness, but having raised one such kid, I see it in her too -- but it's not the IQ-test logical giftedness that they identify and test for; it's more almost the kind of pattern-recognition giftedness you see in autistic people. (And anyone who's dealt with gifted kids knows it's not something you say to brag as a parent -- it's a different way their brain functions and you have to approach things differently with them. My youngest one is bright and a hard worker but by no means on the gifted spectrum.)

Like Anvil said, DD doesn't see the point of jumping through hoops to get good grades -- she knows the material, she feels like that is at the end of the day what is important. And I've told her that I basically agree with that -- that learning is in a larger perspective way more important than grades. But that the jumping through hoops stuff is part of what you learn in school -- it's something you'll be doing the rest of your life, just like dealing with difficult people is.

I can tell you one thing---her excuse is that she is lazy and doesn't see the point in school----that is a maneuver to avoid facing what the real issue/issues are--or to avoid telling what is really bothering her.
I think she feels very different and is sort of embracing the outsider identity. The people she's been hanging out with are, she has discovered now, people who are outsiders because they don't have a choice. They're people with incredible trauma, often ongoing (sexual abuse, parents who cook meth in the garage, etc) -- and she's beginning to see that while she can relate to those people more than to the straight-A blonde cheerleader who's dating the quarter back and whose dad is a state senator, there's a limit to how much she has in common with those kids, too.

I think it's something most teens struggle with -- belonging -- but she is moving from that group of friends (where failing is a badge of honor) to a new group of friends. I think that may help motivate her.

I honestly don't have any pride or shame in whether she graduates or not. It's mostly about the obstacles she will face if she doesn't. She would be making her life much harder than it needs to be -- and I feel like I'd be at fault as a parent if I didn't push her to do everything she can to actually graduate.

It does bother me that she isn't making an effort -- because I think work ethic is more important than most things. I would be less worried if she worked her tail off and got Ds in all subjects because that's what she was capable of. And at 15... she's at an age where I don't feel like I should take over, keep in daily touch with teachers, make sure she does her homework, and the likes -- I feel like that would be codependent in spades and that she really does need to take responsibility herself about this... but it's difficult for me to know what to do. If she was in fourth grade, I'd definitely choose to micromanage more -- but at 15, you know, she's 3 years away from being an adult and she needs to learn to make good decisions without pressure from me.

I have to ponder this some more:
as an only child who already felt like I didn't measure up the message I heard was....you aren't good enough ON YOUR OWN, you must excel in order to be WORTHY.
because I do think she's got quite a bit of that. I'm just not sure how to approach that.

Thank you for helping me think this through!
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Old 05-14-2014, 10:31 AM
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no words of wisdom, suggestions or anything ~
just letting you know this mom & grandma (reeree) is sending out supportive thoughts & prayers for you, your daughter & your family

pink hugs!
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Old 05-14-2014, 12:33 PM
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Oh, WTBH -- we're in a small town with not a lot of options. Basically, the option we have is a HS program for kids who have been incarcerated or got pregnant in middle school or have such severe behavior problems that they're considered risks for other students. Not an ideal place, I think.

DH has been crunching the numbers to see if we could get by on his income -- homeschooling has been discussed -- but I don't think that's a great solution. It would solve the problem of getting through courses and learning academically, but such a great part of her need is relationship building, and doing it in an environment where you can't control context and where you can't just walk away when things go south...
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Old 05-14-2014, 05:43 PM
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Luckily, your daughter sounds intelligent and capable. If she botches high school, it will be fairly easy for her to engage at the community college level and move on to university.

In my family, alcohol and codependence were the only coping skills we were taught. So as teenagers, trying to be functional and fit in, we were lagging behind, bright or not. There was stuff we just didn't learn in an A home. It made school stressful.
Where can we send our kids to learn that stuff? Maybe al anon, maybe a teen group, maybe volunteering or service.
I learned a lot through my weekend jobs. Important stuff, like how to get along with people I didn't like, to show up on time, sticking to a scheduled shift, budgeting, that I never learned in Chemistry and certainly didn't learn at home.

teenagers aren't easy on the best of days. I am sending you a big big hug! whatever you do for your daughter, don't forget to do something nice for yourself, too!
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Old 05-15-2014, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by lillamy View Post
Oh, WTBH -- we're in a small town with not a lot of options. Basically, the option we have is a HS program for kids who have been incarcerated or got pregnant in middle school or have such severe behavior problems that they're considered risks for other students. Not an ideal place, I think.

DH has been crunching the numbers to see if we could get by on his income -- homeschooling has been discussed -- but I don't think that's a great solution. It would solve the problem of getting through courses and learning academically, but such a great part of her need is relationship building, and doing it in an environment where you can't control context and where you can't just walk away when things go south...
Are there online learning options that are self directed? Could she do a homeschooling online thing herself and do art type classes at the traditional high school?

The relationship building piece totally sounds key... Is there anyone she has connected with teacher or adult wise at the high school?

I'm so sorry for the pain this must cause you-- wanting to fix things, wanting her to help herself, not knowing what to do to help.... In moments like these I am oh so grateful that my kids are still so young and I can help fix things with much more ease...

Hugs xoxo
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Old 05-15-2014, 08:59 AM
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Her high school is fantastic. She's got a tremendous support system there (which is the only reason I can even have a job -- because she doesn't rely on me 100% for everything anymore, thank GOD!).

But they have other kids, kids with bigger problems. I've told DD that, too -- that the teachers, counselor, psychologist, asst principal who have gone out their ways to help her, they see a smart kid with a well-functioning home situation who is simply not doing the work necessary. And they have limited time to spend -- and there's the kid whose mom is a meth addict, there's the kid who lives with mom and 4 siblings in an efficiency and everyone is drinking and drugging, and there's... the list goes on and on. And they're going to focus their time on the biggest problems, and the kids who try hard despite problems.

It's two steps forward, one step back. But I have to remind myself that a year ago, she was failing ALL her classes. The fact that she's actually passing classes this year, going to school every day, and doing some of her homework -- that's something I would not have felt I could expect a year ago. Things are getting better.

But like you say -- it's my child. I want to help so bad.
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Old 05-15-2014, 09:06 AM
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Hugs Amy dear! I don't have any answers. I would come unglued if DS started to not apply himself in school. Learning has always been my escape. I'd hate to see him close off that avenue.
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