Trying to understand this disease more.
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Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: virginia
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Trying to understand this disease more.
I've posted several times on here and each time, i get so many helpful responses. My concern is "choice" the alcoholic has which is my husband. He can make the choice not to drink on the nights he has VASAP, outpatient treatment, the next day and knows he has to blow into the ignition interlock to start his car. He chooses not to drink on Sundays when he goes to his AA meeting. But from what i've picked up on Alcoholism being a disease, the alcoholic is sick and has no choice over the drink. But then he has a choice whether he drinks or goes to treatment. I'm just confused on this. How can he make a choice not to drink on a certain day, but at the same time make a choice not to get sober. I'm sorry of none of this makes sense.. i'm just babbling today. Any comments would be appreciated very much.
Netta
Netta
A Day at a Time
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grand Rapids MI
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The answer is because we are alcoholics and we do not operate the way normal people do.
I heard this line once, "I could get sober any time I wanted to. The problem was I never wanted to." We all can moderate if we have to but will go back to our old drinking levels as soon as we can.
Eventually in late stage alcoholism moderation is no longer an option
I heard this line once, "I could get sober any time I wanted to. The problem was I never wanted to." We all can moderate if we have to but will go back to our old drinking levels as soon as we can.
Eventually in late stage alcoholism moderation is no longer an option
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Addiction is a disease, not a choice. How the addict got that disease, came from choices they made that caused the addiction. Addiction takes away the choice to drink or not drink, in a way. They could always not drink that day, true, but the addiction messes with their brains and makes them think they can't. They literally think that if they stop, they will die, until of course, they are so far advanced in their alcoholism that that is actually true.
The alcoholic (I speak generally, this is obviously not true in all cases) will not stop until something forces them to. They face the threat of losing something more important than the alcohol (or in some cases, they gain something-like the knowledge that they will kill themselves if they take another drink because they are so far gone). Sometimes, hitting bottom works, sometimes, it doesn't. And just because it works once does not mean that will be the same thing that sends them into recovery the next time, if they need it.
The choice is there for him to drink or not, but he doesn't realize it because the disease is controlling him. That's all it comes down to. And since alcoholism is progressive, it will only get worse. The addiction will completely take him over until he doesn't even know what it is doing to him-like making choices other than drinking. Like, you know, I could go to work today, but I would rather drink, and then he loses his job.
But, it is HIS disease, HIS choice. He has to own up to it and whatever consequences come as a result.
The alcoholic (I speak generally, this is obviously not true in all cases) will not stop until something forces them to. They face the threat of losing something more important than the alcohol (or in some cases, they gain something-like the knowledge that they will kill themselves if they take another drink because they are so far gone). Sometimes, hitting bottom works, sometimes, it doesn't. And just because it works once does not mean that will be the same thing that sends them into recovery the next time, if they need it.
The choice is there for him to drink or not, but he doesn't realize it because the disease is controlling him. That's all it comes down to. And since alcoholism is progressive, it will only get worse. The addiction will completely take him over until he doesn't even know what it is doing to him-like making choices other than drinking. Like, you know, I could go to work today, but I would rather drink, and then he loses his job.
But, it is HIS disease, HIS choice. He has to own up to it and whatever consequences come as a result.
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Originally Posted by inpieces314 
Addiction is a disease, not a choice. How the addict got that disease, came from choices they made that caused the addiction. Addiction takes away the choice to drink or not drink, in a way. They could always not drink that day, true, but the addiction messes with their brains and makes them think they can't. They literally think that if they stop, they will die, until of course, they are so far advanced in their alcoholism that that is actually true.
The alcoholic (I speak generally, this is obviously not true in all cases) will not stop until something forces them to. They face the threat of losing something more important than the alcohol (or in some cases, they gain something-like the knowledge that they will kill themselves if they take another drink because they are so far gone). Sometimes, hitting bottom works, sometimes, it doesn't. And just because it works once does not mean that will be the same thing that sends them into recovery the next time, if they need it.
The choice is there for him to drink or not, but he doesn't realize it because the disease is controlling him. That's all it comes down to. And since alcoholism is progressive, it will only get worse. The addiction will completely take him over until he doesn't even know what it is doing to him-like making choices other than drinking. Like, you know, I could go to work today, but I would rather drink, and then he loses his job.
But, it is HIS disease, HIS choice. He has to own up to it and whatever consequences come as a result.
The alcoholic (I speak generally, this is obviously not true in all cases) will not stop until something forces them to. They face the threat of losing something more important than the alcohol (or in some cases, they gain something-like the knowledge that they will kill themselves if they take another drink because they are so far gone). Sometimes, hitting bottom works, sometimes, it doesn't. And just because it works once does not mean that will be the same thing that sends them into recovery the next time, if they need it.
The choice is there for him to drink or not, but he doesn't realize it because the disease is controlling him. That's all it comes down to. And since alcoholism is progressive, it will only get worse. The addiction will completely take him over until he doesn't even know what it is doing to him-like making choices other than drinking. Like, you know, I could go to work today, but I would rather drink, and then he loses his job.
But, it is HIS disease, HIS choice. He has to own up to it and whatever consequences come as a result.
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Join Date: Feb 2012
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They always think it can't happen to them-they won't become an alcoholic, and then once they are, they don't think they will destroy everything. They know better, they can handle it better, etc.
They are wrong.
They are wrong.
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Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 214
Some schools of thought, like rational recovery, SMART recovery and others think it is a choice.
I know there is some degree of choice--many alcoholics are capable of curbing their intake at work, then letting it go on weekends, or at home.
My A would drink differently around friends than he would alone--the question is, given a choice, how much would an alcoholic drink? All of it--and go out for more! Given a choice, how much would a non-alcoholic drink? Not enough to get in the way of life.
I know there is some degree of choice--many alcoholics are capable of curbing their intake at work, then letting it go on weekends, or at home.
My A would drink differently around friends than he would alone--the question is, given a choice, how much would an alcoholic drink? All of it--and go out for more! Given a choice, how much would a non-alcoholic drink? Not enough to get in the way of life.
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Location: Silicon Valley, CA
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My understanding is that RECOVERY is a choice, alcoholism is a disease. Cancer is a disease, chemo (recovery) is a choice. Diabetes is a disease, insulin (recovery) is a choice. It's the only way I can wrap my mind around it.
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Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 81
I deal with it like this- my AH is an alcoholic. He has a drinking problem.
I'm overweight from comfort eating. I have a chocolate problem. Do I choose to soothe or reward myself with food? Yes. Is it hard to say no? Yes. And alcoholism or drug abuse is like that but multiplied by about a million. Simple and childish but that's how I look at it.
I'm overweight from comfort eating. I have a chocolate problem. Do I choose to soothe or reward myself with food? Yes. Is it hard to say no? Yes. And alcoholism or drug abuse is like that but multiplied by about a million. Simple and childish but that's how I look at it.
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Originally Posted by netta1966
He can make the choice not to drink on the nights he has VASAP, outpatient treatment, the next day and knows he has to blow into the ignition interlock to start his car. He chooses not to drink on Sundays when he goes to his AA meeting.
I've read lots of posts on SR where the poster can go for days or even weeks without drinking but always comes back to severe binge drinking. Your AH can possibly hold off for a time, but hasn't got to the point of stopping permanently.
It would be interesting to see how long he'd last if he had an appointment every day, or always had to blow into the interlock. My guess is that he'd cave before long whatever the consequence.
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Originally Posted by fairlyuncertain
--the question is, given a choice, how much would an alcoholic drink? All of it--and go out for more! Given a choice, how much would a non-alcoholic drink? Not enough to get in the way of life.
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I look at it as a constant battle of the alcoholic being in denial that they are an alcoholic. Nobody wants to be an alcoholic, its bad, its uncontrollable, its a label, and once you admit/accept the label then you have to stop theoretically. So they go through life "proving" they aren't. They stop drinking, they switch type of alcohol, they mix up their pattern. This is just proof to themselves (and they think everyone else) that they are NOT alcoholic. Even in the mind of an alcoholic a "true" alcoholic is different than what they are. A "true" alcoholic can't stop. They drink in the morning. They drink all day . They miss work etc.
There are many stories on here of A's that have admitted alcoholism and then later changed their minds. My RAH, a horrific alcoholic in his day, after 10 years sober decided that he was not an alcoholic anymore. His sobriety became proof that he in fact was never an alcoholic - because "real" alcoholics can't quit. He searched for information on the internet proving that people can and do go from alcoholic to moderate drinkers. There was some written information about that but very little. So he relapsed in secret as a test to prove his point. By the time I found out that he had been drinking, and not to excess, was all the proof he needed in his mind. Sadly (or should I say gladly) he progressed quite quickly to uncontrolled actions and making stupid decisions like driving drunk and a near physical fight with me so the experiment ended.
The first step in AA is to admit you are powerless over alcohol. Until the time that one is seeking recovery all it is is a dance to prove that is not true.
There are many stories on here of A's that have admitted alcoholism and then later changed their minds. My RAH, a horrific alcoholic in his day, after 10 years sober decided that he was not an alcoholic anymore. His sobriety became proof that he in fact was never an alcoholic - because "real" alcoholics can't quit. He searched for information on the internet proving that people can and do go from alcoholic to moderate drinkers. There was some written information about that but very little. So he relapsed in secret as a test to prove his point. By the time I found out that he had been drinking, and not to excess, was all the proof he needed in his mind. Sadly (or should I say gladly) he progressed quite quickly to uncontrolled actions and making stupid decisions like driving drunk and a near physical fight with me so the experiment ended.
The first step in AA is to admit you are powerless over alcohol. Until the time that one is seeking recovery all it is is a dance to prove that is not true.
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Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Nowhere, VA
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I think that sometimes they use the word "choice" to keep people thinking they have some control. I know my ABF will skip 1 day a week and to him that seems to make him feel like he is in control. But it also makes him feel like he can "make up for it" the next day and drinking twice as much.
Good luck, and I hope the al-anon is helpful. I live in VA too and I haven't found a good group yet, still searching! Also, the book "codependent no more" is awesome.
Good luck, and I hope the al-anon is helpful. I live in VA too and I haven't found a good group yet, still searching! Also, the book "codependent no more" is awesome.
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Join Date: Sep 2013
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In my drinking experience, the idea of quitting completely was entirely scary. It was such a fearful thought that I would do everything I could to appear normal in order to "keep my drink on." I simply could not fathom life without alcohol and having drank since I was 15, I didn't know life without alcohol. So, if anyone would question my drinking, I had "proof" of times that I didn't get drunk, that I didn't drink and these were just my arsenal to prove that I wasn't an alcoholic, all just to keep alcohol in my life.
The funny thing is I have quit other things that I absolutely loved: Diet Coke, red meat, etc. and quitting those things were hard, but certainly I had no fear of losing them and I didn't need a support group to quit them. That is when I realized the difference between a bad habit and addiction.
I appreciate your question because my mother is like your husband. She goes on benders, sometimes is drunk in the mornings, has shown up at afternoon family events drunk, but then at other times, stays sober or drinks so normally that she makes me feel crazy. How can she control it sometimes and not others?? I think that is the key to addiction, it is not predictable. I could promise you now, that a lot of times I could keep my alcohol use at "normal levels", but I could not/cannot do this with 100% accuracy. Not even close.
The funny thing is I have quit other things that I absolutely loved: Diet Coke, red meat, etc. and quitting those things were hard, but certainly I had no fear of losing them and I didn't need a support group to quit them. That is when I realized the difference between a bad habit and addiction.
I appreciate your question because my mother is like your husband. She goes on benders, sometimes is drunk in the mornings, has shown up at afternoon family events drunk, but then at other times, stays sober or drinks so normally that she makes me feel crazy. How can she control it sometimes and not others?? I think that is the key to addiction, it is not predictable. I could promise you now, that a lot of times I could keep my alcohol use at "normal levels", but I could not/cannot do this with 100% accuracy. Not even close.
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Join Date: Apr 2014
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I'm lately of the mind that addiction is a displaced action that addicts use to deal with feelings of helplessness. It's a maladaptive coping mechanism. This is a theory that psychiatrist Lance Dodes has been popularizing lately, and I find quite convincing.
Of course, the problem with using addictive substances or behaviors to deal with these feelings, once addiction is learned as a coping mechanism, it becomes so ingrained the only way to address the negative consequences of the behavior is for the person so addicted to choose abstinence. Not only is the addictive substance use a less direct method of dealing with whatever feelings of helplessness the addicted person experiences, but due to the neurochemistry of addiction and neurobiological mechanisms of reward, the coping behavior becomes all that more ingrained and overlearned.
I personally believe that moderation can be achieved for any number of so-called "addicts" or "alcoholics," but the learning curve is so steep, and the chances of making mistakes along the way are so great (with all of the attendant, potentially lethal consequences with it) that abstinence is really the most sensible goal from a cost-benefit perspective. I mean, I think it's theoretically possible that I could choose moderation someday as a goal - but I think the inevitable bumps in the road that come with learning a new skill (and for me, moderation would be a new skill, as opposed to addictive use), embarking this kind of 'project' would easily kill me. So, I choose abstinence. It's simpler, far less room for error (in fact, none, if it's practiced properly), it's cheaper, and life is just as full, if not fuller, without addictive or mind-altering substance use or behaviors in my life.
Sorry for the overcomplicated answer but I don't personally find the disease metaphor of addiction convincing, or moral takes on addiction either. I think it's far more complicated, addiction is a matter of psychology primarily, biology second. Anyways.
-DrS
Of course, the problem with using addictive substances or behaviors to deal with these feelings, once addiction is learned as a coping mechanism, it becomes so ingrained the only way to address the negative consequences of the behavior is for the person so addicted to choose abstinence. Not only is the addictive substance use a less direct method of dealing with whatever feelings of helplessness the addicted person experiences, but due to the neurochemistry of addiction and neurobiological mechanisms of reward, the coping behavior becomes all that more ingrained and overlearned.
I personally believe that moderation can be achieved for any number of so-called "addicts" or "alcoholics," but the learning curve is so steep, and the chances of making mistakes along the way are so great (with all of the attendant, potentially lethal consequences with it) that abstinence is really the most sensible goal from a cost-benefit perspective. I mean, I think it's theoretically possible that I could choose moderation someday as a goal - but I think the inevitable bumps in the road that come with learning a new skill (and for me, moderation would be a new skill, as opposed to addictive use), embarking this kind of 'project' would easily kill me. So, I choose abstinence. It's simpler, far less room for error (in fact, none, if it's practiced properly), it's cheaper, and life is just as full, if not fuller, without addictive or mind-altering substance use or behaviors in my life.
Sorry for the overcomplicated answer but I don't personally find the disease metaphor of addiction convincing, or moral takes on addiction either. I think it's far more complicated, addiction is a matter of psychology primarily, biology second. Anyways.
-DrS
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My XAH does not want to be labeled in any way, so he tells himself he is not an alcoholic. He convinces himself that he can moderate, which he cannot. It's an evil cycle, the reason we are divorcing. When he actually dives into his life and is honest about it, he will admit he is an alcoholic.
My issue with it being a disease is that they always choose not to do anything about it, and yes, that part is a choice. Like Stung said, if you are diabetic you take insulin. If you have cancer you take chemo or whatever treatment they offer. However, choosing to sit there and have a disease and do nothing to treat it is very frustrating.
I hope you take good care of you!
My issue with it being a disease is that they always choose not to do anything about it, and yes, that part is a choice. Like Stung said, if you are diabetic you take insulin. If you have cancer you take chemo or whatever treatment they offer. However, choosing to sit there and have a disease and do nothing to treat it is very frustrating.
I hope you take good care of you!
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To me it is a choice. It certainly isn't a disease anymore than smoking is a disease. Both behaviors can CAUSE disease though. If someone becomes physically dependent on alcohol, then the drinking becomes necessary to avoid withdrawal symptoms, but still the choice is there to seek medical help to detox or to taper off.
When I was drinking I'll admit that drinking really didn't seem like a choice I was making, but now that I've been sober a few years, I can see that the choice to drink was always mine. No one ever, not once, forced me to drink alcohol.
When I was drinking I'll admit that drinking really didn't seem like a choice I was making, but now that I've been sober a few years, I can see that the choice to drink was always mine. No one ever, not once, forced me to drink alcohol.
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I really appreciate everyone's responses and I'm very thankful for this site. It's amazing how clear things get each day for me. My ah cringes and gets very defense at the mention of going to treatment when he doesn't want to. Although we are living apart we are still somewhat together and I'm still enabling by giving him a ride to work when he works next door. But I realize this but I figure he needs to get there to pay the bills and we work right next door to each other. He doesn't drive the next morning after drinking cause he can't with the interlock. Today I'm feeling out put in the spot bNo matter what happens if I continue to do the next right thing in front of me my Higher Power WILL take care of me and I will be OKHe asks if I will go walking with him this evening and I know why cause he doesn't want to drink tonight. This makes me feel like if I say no then he will drink. I'm not responsible for keeping him sober because I can't. Why do I feel like this. N
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You feel like this because you love him. But if you could get someone else sober by loving them this forum would have few members. I know I didn't stop drinking until I wanted to be sober MORE than I wanted to drink. It was really really hard to stop. I will say that having a wife that cared about me helped me decide to care for myself. But again, I had to choose to stop.
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