Pebbles2012

Where to start? My AW and I finally decided to go to counseling together. I have been going for the past 2 yrs since drinking started getting really bad. There have been so many negative side effects of alcohol in her family. Cancer, DUI and tons of marital turmoil between us. She finally agreed to counseling for us and we are about 2 months into it. She has drank despite this but the amount has gotten less. It's been more of a drink 2 glasses of wine with dinner or a few beers here or there. My problem with this is that this still causes a "change" in her and it makes me a nervous wreck, which she knows because I've told her about it. Recently the counselor we are seeing recommended that I "praise" my wife for not drinking. This absolutely infuriates me. How can I praise my wife for something she should know is bad behavior? My counselor frowned at this recommendation. Our marriage counselor can't seem to understand why I am having trust issues with my wife? Duh, 2 yrs of lie, betrayal and now I need to all of a sudden praise her. Someone please give me some insight.

Btw. This forum is awesome. I was here last yr when things were really bad and I'm a lurker constantly looking for advice and knowledge. Thanks for everything you all do.

hopeful4

I can totally relate. My AH only drinks a small amount when he drinks which is maybe once a month, but he too changes. The anxiety it gives me is almost too much to handle. I found I needed the therapist w/out him for myself. Your counselor could be leading you into an approach called the CRAFT method. Myself, I absolutely just cannot do that because I would be the crazy one, but lots of others have found it to work in recovery. It's just a guess.

I wish you the best of luck. Please take care!

Mellybug

My best friend has much experience with an XAH....she gives me advice all the time, and I have to admit that I balk at most of it! It irritates me, it ticks me off - I try to explain to her why I disagree with what she's advising. I have to admit that I usually follow her advice, though, and when I have, I have ALWAYS seen positives come of it. Not necessarily what I think I WANT, but it's always positive.

Imagine how bad I balked when I was told I should praise my XABF for drinking only HALF of a fifth of vodka a night? SERIOUSLY?!!? I should PRAISE him for drinking?!?! But I did...because it WAS better than what he had been doing....and it encouraged him to drink even LESS.

In the 6 months that I lived there he had NOT drank only ONE day - and that was because I dared him. After trying this praising thing (which my inner-self SEETHED at having to do), he's now going for FOUR days of not drinking every single week. It is baby steps, for sure, but it's still progress. No matter how small....it's progress.

littlefish

Would your wife be agreeable to seeing an addictions counselor? If you are seeing a marriage counselor I suspect that most marriage counselors don't usually have a lot of training with addictions issues and you clearly will be getting some feedback that just doesn't fit your situation. Like praising your wife for not drinking when she is clearly still drinking.

A marriage counselor may allow for drinking within parameters, while an addictions therapist will say absolutely not: no place for drinking in the recovery plan.

Maybe a therapist just for you and an addictions therapist just for her? I can't see how she will get much help improving the marriage when she isn't addressing her primary problem.

FireSprite

IDK - I have a hard time with this too, for the same reasons you mentioned. (not that I've ever had a counselor specifically suggest it, just in general) Plus, I absolutely *hate* the feeling that I am mothering my husband... there's just something icky feeling about it. It also feels like a different side of codependency/enmeshment.... but still codependency all the same.

I have no problem acknowledging true changes/actions that RAH takes in recovery but I refuse to pat him on the back every time he does the dishes or takes out the garbage. I don't know how I would feel about it in terms of dealing with an active A though, especially in terms of the volume of their drinking. That really confuses me, I have to think on that.

Here's a small example - last weekend I had my sis's 2 kids (ages 14 & 2) along with DD so you can imagine the extra work/cleaning, etc. when the family size doubles like that, especially with a toddler, . For the first time I can EVER remember, when RAH made himself lunch he took the time to make sure the kids were fed as well, making them each what they needed/wanted without me asking him to take care of it. (My hands were full sorting through all the fresh produce we had picked at a local farm that morning) As they finished I cleaned up along with my own mess - it was simple teamwork. While I didn't stop & praise him individually or make any kind of deal out of it, afterward I simply remarked how nice it was having everything done so the baby could just go down for his nap & I wasn't going to be stuck in the kitchen wasting my "free" time while he slept. I didn't see it as praising him, didn't say it for that reason.... I was really just making an observation & if it made him feel good for being a part of that, then that's ok too.

ResignedToWait

I went to a therapist nigh on eight years ago for depression. This was looonnnggg before I realized that my AW's actions and behaviors were what was the root of what I needed to deal with.

After only two sessions, and explaining my life and what was going on...my therapist (a very elderly, grisled, no-nonsense type of man) bluntly told me "You need to divorce your wife, she is the cause of your depression. Get out as fast as you can."

I was shocked. (I didn't have any idea about alcoholism, and was completely naive on the subject...even for two or three years after this incident)
I went home, and of course relayed my entire experience to the AW, and she of course expressed indignation, and urged me to drop him as a therapist.

I did exactly that, and cancelled all my future appointments with him, and dealt with my depression the old fashioned way; holding it all inside and not dealing with it.

I don't wish I could go back in time to tell my past self to listen to the therapist, because then I wouldn't have my two amazing children that were a product of the rest of my marriage, but I do wish I could go back and tell the therapist that his advice was spot on and that he really knew exactly what he was talking about.

hopeful4

Resigned....I don't know if you are familiar with Dr. Laura? I once called into her show out of desperation. My AH was home drinking, my kids were at school, and I was driving around and listening to her show. I called in and started telling her what was going on. She said "Stop and Listen to Me, Leave, Now." I was just stunned. Here I thought she was going to give me some gem of advise to fix all of this. Nope, she just said, in her very blunt way, that there is nothing I can do but leave.

I am in the same boat. Had I left I would not have had my second child who I love with my entire being. However, she too was spot on. I was offended at the time, but now I look back and see it clearly, just like she could.

BadCompany

I'm 23 years sober in AA. To this day I am uncomfortable with the applause for my time sober. I always say it feels like I am being applauded for running out of a burning building that I helped set on fire.

CodeJob

Pebbles, Thanks for posting. So your AW has just cut back then. She is on the moderation theory... If she still has a personality change which causes you anxiety, I think it is fair for you to be truthful about your trust issues and anxiety about any alcohol use.

As for the marriage counselor, maybe you should inquire about their level of specialized education in relation to addiction's impact on marriage?

Peace in your heart.

lillamy

I've been told that it's a waste of time and money to go to counseling with an actively drinking alcoholic. I would like to add to that that it seems like a royal waste of time and money to go to counseling with an alcoholic and meet with a counselor who doesn't seem to know the first thing about addiction.

I would be just as infuriated as you are. So what's next -- we're supposed to praise other adults for not beating us, for showering? Hell no. You don't get credit for managing to half-assedly do what normal people do 24/7/52/365.

Bad Company -- 23 years sober, you can pat yourself on the back for. I do recognize that NOT DRINKING is a different thing for an alcoholic than for a person who isn't an alcoholic. It is an achievement.

However, I love your metaphor.

But praising someone for not drinking as much as they used to is like praising an abuser for not hitting you as often as they used to. The problem is still there, the disease is still progressing.

JustAGirl1971

Pebbles, one thing to remember is that the counselor's recommendation is just that... a recommendation. Does not mean you have to do it! I guess it must work for some? Though honestly, I don't see how it could work long-term for an alcoholic. Maybe for a substance abuser who is not yet addicted?

Prior to separating and filing for divorce, my STBXAH and I went to counseling.... He is actively drinking and not interested in stopping long-term. To say it didn't work would be an understatement. Also, while our counselor was/is really well respected as a family/marital counselor, she does not specialize in addictions. A lot of her recommendations ran contrary to the recommendations from my children's counselor. He does specialize in addictions... has over 20 yrs experience counseling addicts and their families. I found his recommendations much more beneficial. I would also agree that for an addict, moderation is not an option.

My own advice is not to do anything that will add to your resentments. If praising your wife for abstaining or drinking less increases your resentments and anger, it will not be beneficial to either one of you. If your marital counselor does not understand/agree with that, then he/she may not be the right counselor.

Stung

Exactly what Amy said.

I was going to marriage therapy with my husband while he was still an active alcoholic and it was crazy making, not to mention the thousands that were flushed down the drain. We were both being given tools to improve our marriage but I was the ONLY one using them so it didn't actually improve anything. My effort changed, his did not. It just made me resentful.

I've found that individual counseling for myself with a counselor who specializes in addiction has been leaps and bounds more helpful.

Wisconsin

I haven't gotten these "recommendations" from a counselor, because we of course HAVE NEVER GONE (and like many others, I have grave doubts about marriage counseling with an active drinker...although if I was to try it, it would be with someone with expertise in addiction).

BUT...I have gotten them from my AH. He wants constant affirmation when he drinks less, or doesn't drink for a few days, or washes a dish, or sweeps the floor. Like FireSprite, it ENRAGES me to feel like I have to pat him on the back every five seconds. Maybe it would feel easier if he was actually seeking recovery, but the whole thing is just a load of crap when he's actively drinking and refusing to acknowledge his problem. I also hate feeling like my AH's mother. One reason I fell in love with my AH was because I DIDN'T feel that way (after 11 years of marriage to my first husband, not an A, but a man who I mothered all the time). I welcomed the change and this self-sufficient, productive, enthusiastic, helpful, kind man into my life. I refuse to go back to mothering, now that my once-awesome husband has relapsed.

I will say one thing about therapists' recommendations, though. When I was in solo therapy during my divorce from my first husband, I found that there were two times when my therapist's suggestion pissed me off. Sometimes, it was because I honestly felt she didn't understand where I was coming from and where I wanted to be. But more often than not, it was because I wasn't comfortable identifying and calling out my flaws that were raised by her suggestion. This was after we had developed a strong and productive therapist/client relationship, and I trusted her. If you have developed a strong relationship with your therapist and trust him/her, then I think it's worth at least asking yourself WHY a suggestion/recommendation bothers you. Sometimes that kind of self-inquiry leads you to discover something new about YOURSELF, which is a wonderful thing!

littlebird73

It was strongly recommended to me to wait to see a marriage counselor until after the addiction had been addressed first. In my experience marriage counseling simply does not work well with an active alcoholic & therapists who do not specialize in addiction treatment have no clue (have been given some horrible advice in the past from therapists who did not understand addiction). Our marriage has made the most progress from my husband seeing an addiction counselor by himself while I got individual therapy simultaneously & went to Al-Anon. Two marriage counselors flat out refused to set an appointment with us until my husband had gotten help for himself & was sober first. That makes a lot of sense to me in hindsight.

theuncertainty

You know, I'd never received it as a recommendation as something to do, but I tried it with AXH. With everything. It started out with household chores, because he point blank told me that I never told him what a good job he was doing with remembering to take out the trash. Okaaaaayyy...

So I started telling him thank you for ____: taking out the trash, loading the dish washer... And it worked, for a bit. So I tried it with his drinking. All that got me was a load of glares and rants about how he doesn't drink THAT much any way and geesh, I was making such a big deal about it. So the praise thing didn't work with AXH, I don't know if it'd work with any one else. I do know that the praise eventually stopped working with the chores, too.

Plus, it felt WEIRD trying to say it every time he did something helpful. There were some things that, yeah, I really, really appreciated (like him fixing the disposal) and it was no problem praising him for that, because it was generally above and beyond the usual scope of things. But for everything? This is how I ended up feeling afterwards:

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redatlanta

Sounds like you need to establish boundaries here what are yours? Is your boundary zero tolerance? I think it may be (as there is no moderation for an alcoholic long term).

So perhaps you need to put that on the table. If she isn't going to quit drinking then what are YOU going to do?

m1k3

Pebbles, one thing to consider. Maybe you are feeling this way towards the suggestions because deep down you don't consider the marriage to be worth saving? I know I floundered for years thinking I wanted things to get better but really I just wanting to get out.

Your friend,

NWGRITS

If you want to praise someone for behaving well or getting their socks in the hamper, have children. The moderation approach simply does not work. They will dive headfirst back into their old ways, and often they try to make up for lost time in the process. I would suggest finding a counselor for yourself, and preferably one with some experience in addiction therapy. The cookie cutter approach to marriage counseling (or any run-of-the-mill counseling) does not apply to addiction. You can't treat an irrational thing rationally. Just doesn't work. Best of luck to you.

Pebbles2012

Thanks for the info everyone. I will say that the marriage counselor could have handled this a bit better. Maybe an explanation of the "praising" idea instead of acting like I'm just automatically supposed to know this. The marriage counselor was a previous addict with a history of alcohol abuse so I would hope that she knows something about treating addiction.

I think what I need to decide is whether or not I can forgive my wife and lose the resentment I have for her. She manipulates and can be downright childish at times even when sober. She's always been a bit moody but since her mom died and the drinking started it's an emotional roller-coaster. I wonder if I focus too much on the drinking but I don't feel like she understands the amount of anxiety it causes me. Which is why I resent her.

Through all of this I have so many doubts about our marriage. A big part of me is totally done with her but at the same time afraid of the outcome of it all. Then I think of how a marriage should be between 2 people and so badly want this to be what it was at one time. I'm not sure I can get any of that back. Lots of questions but not alot of answers.

I'm sure I'll be back here again lurking or reading. It's forums and people like you guys that give me hope that the human race may still be OK.

allforcnm

I used an approach like this with my husband Pebbles; learned it from my therapist also. She was specialized in addiction medicine & was assigned to me by my husbands rehab (non 12 step based on psychotherapy).

First I have to say it did work well for us.. but if what she is encouraging is anything like what I learned... its really not like you just follow her around and are expected to praise any good deed: putting her glass in the dishwasher, or doing laundry... it not like that for the most part. That would have driven me insane, my husband insane.. and Im pretty sure if I followed my 2 year old around like that even he would go crazy.

Instead what I learned was more of a soft approach, it has to come from within you based on your actual observations and feelings... In your original post you stated its obvious she has cut back on her drinking... your noting the change and it sounds like your happy about it, but you still have anxiety because of past history and probably not knowing what comes next. That part my therapist would say falls on me... those are my emotions.

She would ask me to put forth this question? Do I think my husband has really put in effort to cut back and change his behavior? That is an accomplishment, its a step forward for him, the more rewarding it feels to him, the better life feels, the better close relationships feel.. this is motivation for him to keep changing and hopefully end up quitting.

There is an actual method called "craft - community reinforcement and family training" that was noted by someone above... I was taught this by my therapist also. Its a 3 step concept. 1. Learning how to take care of our own needs, 2. helping to motivate our loved one to enter treatment by ending any enabling behavior, and by using motivational approaches (like noted above) 3. Use the same techniques in early recovery more in terms of encouraging continued therapy, and changing the behaviors that usually persist after the drug/alcohol use ends.

Sounds like your more at step 3.. and this is what she is encouraging you to do by recognizing change, and effort.

Ive shared some about CRAFT on the secular family forum.. articles from Partnership Drug Free... mostly Ive shared them because it seems many people have never heard of this type of approach, and for us it has worked well. I also did my own private therapy just like your doing...

Just wanted to share my experience. I would just encourage you to talk to the therapist if you are uncomfortable. Maybe she can give you more insight in how it might help you heal, along with encouraging change in him.

Good luck whatever way you go.