littlebird73

This is my first post. Sorry, this will be long bc I do not know where to start.. I've read SR online for years plus been active in Al-Anon & have a great sponsor. My husband has been in rehab once (didn't finish bc insurance didn't cover it), counseling, intensive outpatient twice (didn't finish either time bc drinking too much). Been together 9 years, two kids (4 years & 8 months). He was only completely sober 1 year (after rehab) & currently is drinking 2-8 beers daily after years of ups & downs, including many periods of VERY heavy drinking, drunk driving, violent black-outs, etc. I've kicked him out & let him back in numerous times. Last time was when I let him back in after finding out I was pregnant with our son & believing lots of promises. Of course things gradually got terrible again. He stopped drinking heavily & went to his current usage several months ago (& has not been drunk since) starting the day after he had passed out leaving his Facebook account open showing that he had been having a cyber affair with an XGF for over a year since the last time I had kicked him out (so for the entirety of my pregnancy & four months after). He broke off the affair, gave me his passwords, & let me read their entire log of conversations that did show he all but once only talked to her when he was blasted drunk (sometimes months in between contact..was obvious from the conversations that was a sexual outlet to him, but "the one who got away" romantic fantasy for her). She is married also with kids & was the one who initiated the affair. So, three months later we were talking more, getting along better than ever, I thought really repairing things. (We were good friends before marrying & things only got ****** when the drinking got bad.) Then I find out he has made what are obviously profile pix (his face blotted out of normal photos, etc). I then found photos from Craigslist downloaded amongst a lot of other porn. Lots & lots of porn. He had these right on his desktop. I've never been one to invade privacy & have always trusted him. This changed everything. I then did a little detective work & found out he has been placing ads for casual sex on Craigslist at least half our marriage & the kicker, put an ad up on that affair site & had exchanged photos with several women. I told him not to come home, that I never wanted to see him again. He came home & that day called to make an appointment for counseling & now also is in the process of putting himself in rehab. He's been crying for days & swearing up & down he never actually did anything physical with anyone, that he just got off on exchanging messages & photos. He got rid of all his porn & says it just kept escalating over the years, but he never wanted to hurt me. I'm getting counseling for myself & getting tested for VDs this week. I feel devastated, numb & terrified all at the same time. How can I ever trust him or forgive him? I'm still not sure I can stay in this marriage. BTW we had a very active sex life except for the periods where he was drinking super heavily. I don't even know where to start if I do stay knowing it is alcoholism and now THIS.. It's hard to bc he is a really good dad when he is not drinking heavily. He also seems very sincere about really wanting to get help. Besides feeling betrayed the angry part of me says I should just leave bc after everything, being so loyal..and I know I am very attractive, well-read, successful & a loving person who could be in a relationship with someone who would not treat me this way & appreciate me. He even put up an ad on Craigslist the day before I had my son (& I was in labor!!) ugh, it just hurts so bad.. Any words of encouragement or advice are appreciated. Also, has anyone else here dealt with alcoholism paired with porn/sex addiction? (Thank you..)

CodeJob

Little bird, thanks for writing. I believe that many people get more sexually expressive once they have some alcohol in their system, so I am sure u r not alone in this dual issue. I'm grateful u r getting checked out for V.D. And going to counseling. Give yourself time to make your own decision on what u want to do with this relationship. I think feeling devastated, numb and terrified is perfectly normal.

The only insight I can give is I am working on a Step 4 checklist and I wrote one of my faults is 'too loyal." I guess being loyal is supposed to be a good character trait, but for a codependent spouse - eh maybe not so much.

DoubleBarrel

I am also unsure this is sex addiction. Sounds like a lot of alcoholism though.

If he stops, more will be revealed. What I mean is that an active alcoholic will mimic a LOT of other mental and physical illnesses.

But unacceptable behaviour is just that.

AnvilheadII

what concerns me is that each time he's cornered, busted, caught, he CLAIMS remorse, and then reverts to old behaviors, only worse. alcoholism is one thing, deep seeded and long term sexual addiction quite another. he would need years of intensive psychotherapy to come to terms with it.

please go get tested for STDs. probably overstepping my bounds but I wouldn't engage in any further sexual acts as that just feeds his addiction. that he has gone so far to place ads, meet with people and have all that porn on the home computer where children reside is an utter violation of their safety and security. he should probably be removed from the home for a good length of time.

counseling would help YOU greatly!!! you need to determine and define your boundaries, when enough is enough. each time we let them back and they resume their addictions, our actions tell them they can get away with anything....

xmrscran

Hiii and hugs. My heart is breaking for you. I'm reading this, and thinking to myself, you're considering taking him back why?! But I know I know, we all know "ours" is different. Believe me I stayed and stayed and stayed until finally, he had an affair and left me for another woman. First drink in months was in June left 5 months later. Best part is, I never suspected an affair, I figured he wasn't coming home because he was drinking!! She's a drinker too and he's literally destroyed his life, lost everything he had, CPS filed a neglect petition against him and his girlfriend and they both have only 2 hours every other week of supervised contact with their children. I feel disgusted now because HE left me. After every single time I had forgiven him. After begging me countless times not to leave, threatening to kill himself if I left him.
It's good you've got the support of AA. I read a great book, called Happens Every Day and the second book A Year and Six Seconds, it's not a book about alcoholism, but it is a book about infidelity, a young mom with 2 young kids whose husband leaves her abruptly for some.. "lady". There's a part in the book when she's on her phone with her friend and the friend asks her if she'd forgive him if he came back. The woman replies "of course, he's my husband" and she was like, doesn't that sound kind of depressing and sad, don't you think something else would be more fun. He never came back. Take some time to think about your options.

I too had to get the ol' VD screening, my husbands (STBX) girlfriend's ex husband had sex with her teenage daughter who is a heroin addict and it was rumored was infected with Hepatitis C, I was clean, but what a fun way to spend your time. Isn't love beautiful?

Prayers for you.

littlebird73

Thank you so much for your responses. The comment about being too loyal made me chuckle. So true. I am still just trying to get my head to meet my heart. It did hit me hard that AFTER knowing how much I was hurt from the cyber affair with the XGF on FB, he opened the Ashley Madison account. He didn't pay to have actual contact with people there, but it is hard to believe that in several years (1 ad placed avg a year & who knows how many answered & very explicitly saying he was looking for NSA encounters, saying he wanted to be discrete & keep his marriage) on Craigslist that nothing physical ever happened. He says he rationalized it thinking it was not like the XGF bc these were strangers & there was no emotional tie, so just sexual. I want to believe him..but I believed him last time when he offered me his account passwords & he still kept a secret e-mail address. Of course, I hope it is just the alcohol & not a true sex addiction, but he thinks he is addicted to porn. He says he's been looking at porn since junior high (also when he started drinking). He also "needs to" masturbate often several times a day & has given himself blisters on occasion. I always just thought he had a high libido. I also found photos taken off FB of one of my coworkers that were obviously being used for such purposes. When he says he never actually met up with anyone he says it is because, "I would never jeopardize our family's safety like that." My rational mind tells me to just end things, but I keep having this damn hope that this time he really does want help. He did get rid of all his porn, I think. I didn't ask him to, but he told me he wanted to & when I checked it was all gone from his computer. At the rehab center they said they can help him with both issues. If he doesn't get completely sober from both alcohol & porn I think I would be unable to stay with him. Getting him into rehab until now has been impossible. He always says that it would interfere with school (he is an honor student almost finished with his degree..don't ask me how he has managed that drinking most of the time at least a fifth of vodka a day..) & work (where he also has been high-functioning except for being fired once for showing up really smashed at a previous job). Writing this I am realizing how crazy I sound..lol..I need the codependent award of the century.. Hearing that about the kids does make me realize I don't want them exposed to porn & don't want it in the house just like I don't want them growing up thinking that drinking hat much is normal & okay. I grew up with a very high-functioning alcoholic dad (friendly happy drunk who never missed work).

littlebird73

Thank you xmrscran for sharing. Yeah..I think I am on "that road." It helps to hear your story. Of course, I hope he's different. I keep going back to the man I thought I married..but I'm not even sure I know him anymore or ever really did. Custody was one of my concerns. When he's drinking heavily & blacks out he's not safe to be around & it would kill me to leave our kids alone with him if I knew he was drinking. I couldn't do it. And if I leave him it's pretty much a guarantee he'll start drinking heavily. That's a tough one.

Hammer

Now that you know what you are dealing with . . . what do YOU want to do with the rest of YOUR life?

I guess no more kids -- at least with this guy, right?

littlebird73

No more kids. And as the numbness & shock wears off things are becoming more clear to me. Painful, but clear. It's hard because he does know how to say all the right things every time to convey how sorry he is, how this time he's serious about getting help, about how much he loves our family & is willing to, "do anything," to keep us. This time he is saying he knows it really is his last chance, etc, etc.. I just keep thinking about how he said he was so sorry about the affair & cut back the drinking saying he was going to get help & quit altogether BUT never told me about the other stuff & then put up that AM account. Thinking about taking the kids & going away for awhile just to think things out away from him. He says he is terrified that when he goes into rehab I'll move out & divorce him. Promised I wouldn't leave him when he is in rehab, but can't promise anything after that. Feel fortunate to have this forum to hear some advice outside my own crazy head & for my sponsor & meetings. I thought I was so much better & not nearly as codependent as I used to be, thought I had improved so much bc I know longer obsessed about his alcohol or got angry & was taking care of myself & the kids (while trying to save up money in case he started drinking heavily again & didn't get help)..ha! Come to find out I am the biggest fool out there. I do worry about how his will effect the kids. They don't know anything & my daughter adores him. Makes me so sad.

Hammer

Mind if take a break from the sh-head-A side of things to talk about us?

And the kids.

About the kids. If things for you are like for us, your 4 year old will barely notice. Our youngest was 5 when Mrs. Hammer went to Rehab. The older kids had a better understanding, so it was harder on them.

While it destroyed me emotionally taking him to kindergarten every day knowing Mom was in Rehab, he just trooped along.

We (me and the kids) did songs and fun time.

Only time the youngest really got serious was a few months after Rehab, and he could tell Mom was still whacky -- he grabbed me for a "serious" conversation. Wanted to know what happens if Mom relapsed. At first I though he was worried about her. I started the whole "she has support, her group (AA), folks to help her . . . " He stopped me and said -- "No. What happens to ME?" I laughed for relief that he is so healthy. I told him not to worry, Dad (me) has his back, and I have him covered. He said "Ok. That's Good."

littlebird73

Wow. Hammer, thank you for that. Can't say how much relief that brings me to hear. My parents were together 42 years until my dad died. Of course, I never dreamed I would be in this situation. I thought it would be like my parents' marriage. I feel like I am on a very steep learning curve here. Very steep.

BlueSkies1

Sorry to hear all this.

The thing I think to keep in mind is that someone is not "sincerely sorry" when they do things repeatedly over and over again.
They are sorry they got caught, yes.

Seems to me as I have been sorry before in life, haven't you? When we were truly sorry we just did something, and did it once, like blew up angrily at someone and wanted to take some words back, or made a mistake once without realizing what we were doing at the time.
Can you think of a time when you were sincerely sorry that was repeated behaviors over and over again and you were truly sorry each and every time?

My point to all this is...we become truly sorry and regret a behavior when we have had time to change, first. Then it becomes remorseful in hindsight. It isn't instantaneous. We have to start to change our thinking on whatever it is, first, then the behavior stops, then we can look back, once we are different, and really understand how we are different, and how we would not repeat ____fill in the blank.
So at this point I would say he is sorry he got caught, he is sorry there may be consequences. He hasn't changed enough to be sorry at some sincere level, because he was just doing this stuff yesterday, or whenever, in recent history, and he would do it again tomorrow if he thought he wouldn't get caught.
People don't change overnight. Their thinking changes slowly over time. He is going to need time to truly change. You are going to need a lot of time to trust him again. Meanwhile, don't trust those crocodile tears. He must prove himself, and he has to do that over time, and the proof is in the test of time, and no words that come out of his mouth qualify as the test of time. Because the ultimate goal here is not that he is sorry when he gets caught, or sorry there may be consequences, but that he actually doesn't think any longer that his behaviors are a contribution to your marriage and family. Not that he lies to you to get out of trouble, but that he agrees with you that these sexual behaviors are a problem. THAT, is going to take some re-wiring, and that doesn't happen overnight.

Porn is one thing, but he's crossed the line severely by setting up accounts on craigslist and Madison. Those are the things that people do when they are considering stepping out.
Sex addict--who knows if the term fits, don't worry about a label, it doesn't matter as much as that he is out of control with unacceptable self-gratifying compulsive behaviors that cause him to lie, be selfish, break trust, and put his family last. Don't trust the words! Let only time speak the truth.
He has maturity issues but some of that may be solved through counseling with working on risk factors for instant gratification.

I think you have a good attitude going forward looking out for yourself and protecting yourself against his behaviors. That's what you have to do so that you can keep it together mentally and be a good parent for your kids. Protect yourself mentally by not trusting him any farther than you can throw him at this point. How this affects you, and protecting your mental health so that you don't sink into depression and paralyzed inertia is the most important thing now. Put him second, or rather, 4th, after you and your kids.

littlebird73

Thank you BlueSkies. I know I will be rereading your post & from everyone here many times for moral support & that kick in the head constant reminding about reality I really need right now so that I don't slip back into my old behaviors (trusting & believing to avoid the awful truth & being more concerned about his feelings than my own & rationalizing myself into a dark abyss). He has started drinking a little more & is moping & crying & telling me how he is sorry & how he has to drink to calm his nerves because this is too much for him emotionally. Meanwhile I have not cried at all, even when alone. It has occurred to me in the past I would have been bawling for days from the pain of this. Only when I first found out I noticed I was shaking so much I had to sit down. I cried when I found out about the XGF affair, but all the Craigslist, AM...just complete numbing pain & disbelief I guess? Thank you for all ur support.

Hammer

Same profile on my folks. 42 years, Mom died, first. I grew up "English" in a Mixed farming area, Amish, Mennonite, and the rest of us -- they called English. Church every Sunday, all that.

Sort of figured that is how things would be when God sent me a wife.

Now, About all I can say on that is . . . Holy Crap.

Those steep learning curves are steep. Real Steep. I sort of look at this like mountain climbing. Even call it Climbing Up Getting-Well-Mountain in my mind. I have heard Happy Valley is on the far side. I think I have seen little glimpses of Happy Valley through the Mountain breaks at times. Looks real nice over there.

While I now keep the kids on a good safety harness and ropes, as a family we are all sort of tied together in this.

As far as Mrs. Hammer and her rope -- I have a Great Big Jesus Model Bowie Knife and will cut her rope if needed. If she slips and falls -- she is not dragging us all down the mountain-side with her. I will just cut her rope and let her fall.

Just not worrying about that anymore. Paraphrasing Yukon Corniulus -- "Bumbles (and A's) Bounce."

But the Steep Climb and tall crags -- Yeah, you cannot do this alone. Smarter folks than I just seem to call out for the God-Copter or Ski-Lift and seem to sail right up. Me, somehow more bone-headed or something. Climb, climb, climb.

I figure I just sort of wear God down nagging him for me to be a Godly Man and raise Godly Children. He does seem to send a LOT of Angels. Maybe you too on that? I prayed he would open my eyes that I may see them. Now I do. Daily. Really. Daily. Even an Alanon Angel who is my daughter's school crossing guard. Same on her English Teacher. Angels are everywhere.

Get back to Climbing.

AnvilheadII

He has started drinking a little more & is moping & crying & telling me how he is sorry & how he has to drink to calm his nerves because this is too much for him emotionally

oh puhleeze...this is hard on HIM emotionally????? so his solution is to drink MORE? those tears you see? they aren't for you or the kids? they are for HIM. he is sad cuz he's a big fat mess and all his ugly secrets keep getting exposed and he got caught, again. don't be fooled. not for one minute. this is a very sick man, with complete lack of impulse control, boundaries, morals....he's is utterly self absorbed, ME ME ME ME ME. even right now when the sh!t storm hath struck, all he can think of is..........HIMSELF, how HE feels and how quickly he can drown himself in alcohol.

if he was truly and indeed repentent, he'd be taking sober actions NOW. he'd be like a drowning man cleaving to the life raft. not feeling sorry for himself. look at his actions....the current ones, and the whole torrid story. turn down the sound, forget for a moment he's your husband, just review the actions of this man.

now what do you see???

ShootingStar1

Littlebird, I did deal with cross addictions to alcohol and porn in my now XAH. July 4th, 2012, I had to leave my home suddenly because beyond alcoholism and emotional abuse, my husband had charged $1500 on my credit card for porn expenses. Not real life encounters, but long distance in increasingly unacceptable and sick ways.

There was a huge amount of support here for me on SoberRecovery. Some of the first months of posts aren't available, because I thought I was being stalked, but there are many many people who gave me good counsel. It was so hard at first for me to comprehend how devastating the abuse actually was, and how far I had slipped from living my own life. People here just kept on supporting me and sharing their wisdom, and it has made all the difference in my life.

My situation is different because I am now 63 and my XAH is 70 so we don't have young children involved.

I'd suggest looking at my old threads. You can click on a poster's screen name, and get a pop-up menu that lets you choose threads they have started. The relevant ones for you would be the early ones.

And feel to PM (private message) me if you want.

I think that the proof is in eating the pudding, not having someone read the recipe for sobriety and mental health to you. He needs to follow through with getting de-toxed, choosing sobriety and working a heavy duty recovery program with total commitment. I'd say after a year of that, you can look at what he's accomplished or not and choose whether you want to build a further life with him. You have to break the cycle of abuse, discovery, remorse, promises, temporary recovery, sliding back into relapse, abuse and over and over. For me, from the spouse's side of the street, I had to leave and let him do what he would do. Without input or encouragement or anything from me. And for me, though he did "moderate" his drinking, I could not go back. The damage done was too deep to my core to ever have the kind of trust that would allow me to have the emotional intimacy that, for me, is essential for a marriage.

As for the porn, it is not a good sign that he has been addicted since junior high school and has acted out so strongly in these past years of your marriage, knowing that if he is caught, the consequences may be quite severe. This is a separate addiction and I would recommend that you do a lot of research on it separate from alcoholism. In some ways, I think it is more possible for an alcoholic to truly choose sobriety and then just stop drinking than it is for someone severely addicted to porn. Often the psychological roots of the sexual dysfunction can go quite deep into the psych of the addict, and they have to be willing to go through the emotional pain of looking deep within to discover and repair these issues. I would wonder how a short rehab stay could comprehensively address that.

But then again, my experience was on the severe end of the spectrum. Others may have found more hope and recovery.

As for the good news, I am now happily living on my own in my own home, and wouldn't go back. I still miss the life I had; we were married for 20 years and it was like the nursery rhyme: "There was a little girl who had a little curl/ Right in the middle of her forehead/ And when she was good, she was very very good/ And when she was bad she was horrid."

It may be that you won't get total clarity about how the good parts and the bad parts of your marriage weigh in. Sometimes, as Hammer is suggesting, you just have to take a real look at how YOU want YOUR life to be and how you want your children's lives to be, without thinking at all about your husband.

Then, having done that, look realistically at what you will likely get, based on past behavior, if you stay with him. Maybe it will fulfill what you need, maybe it won't. Time and introspection will tell.

One of the hardest things for me to understand was that I had lost my ability to think about my own life separate from my husband's life. I let him control how I behaved and what I chose. I wanted to please him, and I was afraid of him. Without realizing it, I was looking at my life through the lens of what my husband wanted. And I am well educated woman with a prior very successful professional career. I just couldn't see it, and slid down this slope thinking I was taking care of a sick man and I was a loyal and good wife.

So, if I thought about talking about his addictions, I literally worried and stopped myself from doing that because he was running for local office and I didn't want to hurt his campaign. What mattered to him was paramount in my mind. Would I hurt him, would he suffer, what would the consequence be to HIM if I did X, Y, or Z?

I almost lost my soul living that way. But there was great emotional abuse, too, as well as the alcoholism and the porn. You need a forum, and SoberRecovery is a great place to start, where you first and only think about YOU and YOUR CHILDREN. Not him. Take him out of the equation, figure out what you and your kids need, then put him back in the equation and see if it works.

Feel free to PM me, and along with lots of others here on SoberRecovery, I'll be here to support you,

ShootingStar1

littlebird73

Thanks for making me laugh. Good reminder to ask to SEE the angels. Yes, God has proven over & over to be there, even in the darkest hours. I love the mountain metaphor. I used to mountain climb with my dad & this brings up some good wisdom quotes from my dad. About taking one step at a time & just focusing on that one step. Also that risks should be weighed by potential consequences when climbing. Huge risk but small consequence is a lot different than small risk but possible life-threatening consequences when choosing your path & next step. Also his favorite flowers were the Blue Alpine Forget-Me-Nots. He told me how you had to climb above timberline just to see them & that they could take 15 to 20 years to bloom. But, wow, they were brilliantly beautiful.. Brought up in a similar situation, church every Sunday, and all. Feel my faith is a lot deeper & mature bc of these steep learning curves. I used to pray for spiritual growth. As my mom says, "Be careful what you pray for, I prayed for patience & God gave me multiple sclerosis." (My mom has a great sense of humor.)

littlebird73

Thank you so much ShootingStar. I very much appreciate your support & sharing your story. I will read over those old threads. I'm glad you found some peace & that gives me hope for my own future.

Catherine628

I used to worry that my husband had other addictions too. What I finally see now is that his behavior whether addictive or not is unacceptable and I don't have to put up with it just because we are married. He was into porn and other unsavory yuckiness. As he falls deeper into his alcohol addiction it seems soon all he will have left is the bottle.

We are separated and have young children. The kids and I are so much better off not being in the middle of his crazy making behavior. It was hard to leave and I still have bad days. But honestly I think my worst day now is better than my best day living with all the psychotic behavior.

Probably the hardest lesson and the one I am still learning is that I have NO control over his addiction. I don't have the power to make him stop. My words will never change his actions. I can't use reason and logic to persuade him to make the "right" choices. But I can make good choices for my girls and myself.

I thought my marriage was forever too. Very few people in my extended family are divorced, maybe 2 cousins. The majority of my friends are married. I'm really thinking about attending a group for people who are divorced or separated.

littlebird73

AnvilheadII thank you. That is exactly the kind of wake-up reminder I need right now. I reread it about 5x already.