Beyond the 12-Steps
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Marseille
Posts: 12
Beyond the 12-Steps
Hello, As a former drug and alcohol counselor in New York City, and with 28 years of sobriety, I sometimes wonder about the direction of my recovery. Not to say I will stop going to meetings, but is 12-Step recovery where I stop in my personal development? Or is there enough "space" within A.A. to continue? As the A.A. Big Book states, A.A. is a spiritual kindergarten. Given that, after 28 years, am I ready to move beyond the kindergarten? I'd appreciate hearing from those who have found such a path.
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,442
My brand of fertiliser may not be your preferred brand lol but
Coming here everyday helps me grow.
Discussion (not arguing) with others helps me grow.
Listening helps me grow too.
Helping others helps me grow.
Prayer, reading, mediation and whatever else I expose my mind to helps me grow.
I believe an open mind and an open heart are great growing tools
D
Coming here everyday helps me grow.
Discussion (not arguing) with others helps me grow.
Listening helps me grow too.
Helping others helps me grow.
Prayer, reading, mediation and whatever else I expose my mind to helps me grow.
I believe an open mind and an open heart are great growing tools
D
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Marseille
Posts: 12
Thank you so much for your reply and good comments. I still am confused. Perhaps I asking the wrong questions. Perhaps I am mentally ill . . .
Let me explain my situation a little. I am a retired drug and alcohol counselor, traveling in Europe. An envious situation to be sure. I've been in London and Paris and am currently in Marseille, in the south of France. I've seen lots of beautiful painting and sculptures and castles and buildings, and talked to many great people in recovery. I've walked along the seashore. But still I have this nagging doubt: Is this all there is? Stupid, huh? But if I don't talk about it I will drink again . . .
Let me explain my situation a little. I am a retired drug and alcohol counselor, traveling in Europe. An envious situation to be sure. I've been in London and Paris and am currently in Marseille, in the south of France. I've seen lots of beautiful painting and sculptures and castles and buildings, and talked to many great people in recovery. I've walked along the seashore. But still I have this nagging doubt: Is this all there is? Stupid, huh? But if I don't talk about it I will drink again . . .
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,442
'Is this all there is' is one of those great metaphysical questions Dramaron
I'm not sure anyone here or elsewhere will be able to answer the question to your satisfaction - in my experience the search for meaning has always been an individual one, where the journey is as important as the destination, if not more so.
I think it's entirely possible to walk around the beauty of Europe and still feel empty.
We humans are complex creatures
sometimes it's what some blithely call a midlife crisis, sometimes it may be a little more.
I'm not a Dr, but have you considered you might be depressed?
do you have a counsellor of your own?
D
I'm not sure anyone here or elsewhere will be able to answer the question to your satisfaction - in my experience the search for meaning has always been an individual one, where the journey is as important as the destination, if not more so.
I think it's entirely possible to walk around the beauty of Europe and still feel empty.
We humans are complex creatures
sometimes it's what some blithely call a midlife crisis, sometimes it may be a little more.
I'm not a Dr, but have you considered you might be depressed?
do you have a counsellor of your own?
D
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Marseille
Posts: 12
Hello again Dee74!
Ah, such wisdom you bring to the forum! I think I'm a bit too old to be in a mid-life crises. I had one of those and went out and bought a sports car! A MG to be exact. After 20 years I finally gave up the MG when I moved to New York City. And, yes, I have considered that I might be a little depressed. In fact, I have a long history of depression and know that it will go away after a time. But thanks for asking. My fear, whether real or imagined, is that I will be spending 3 months in Morocco in the near future, where there are no meetings. That is one reason I'm seeking help online.
Sometimes I look back at when I felt good, to figure out why I don't now, if that makes sense. Some call it a gratitude list. The magic of the program is of course one alcoholic or addict helping another. My best times are going out for coffee or even a meal with a few A.A. friends after a meeting. But you have helped me clear my thoughts. I need to reach out more to people in recovery through the internet, particularly when I am somewhere there are no meetings. Thanks!
Ah, such wisdom you bring to the forum! I think I'm a bit too old to be in a mid-life crises. I had one of those and went out and bought a sports car! A MG to be exact. After 20 years I finally gave up the MG when I moved to New York City. And, yes, I have considered that I might be a little depressed. In fact, I have a long history of depression and know that it will go away after a time. But thanks for asking. My fear, whether real or imagined, is that I will be spending 3 months in Morocco in the near future, where there are no meetings. That is one reason I'm seeking help online.
Sometimes I look back at when I felt good, to figure out why I don't now, if that makes sense. Some call it a gratitude list. The magic of the program is of course one alcoholic or addict helping another. My best times are going out for coffee or even a meal with a few A.A. friends after a meeting. But you have helped me clear my thoughts. I need to reach out more to people in recovery through the internet, particularly when I am somewhere there are no meetings. Thanks!
That bell or bike person
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: london
Posts: 4,978
Hey Dramaron ,
Welcome along
For me the question shall i have a drink or not ? drove me crazy until i had it answered fully and affirmatively in my own mind that the answer would always be no . Once the question was answered to my satisfaction , the question went away , the thoughts and the torment of asking myself this question all the time went away as well .
To my way of thinking "is this all there is" pre-supposes there is something more to have . I never ask myself that question as i believe there is no way of knowing, i was satisfied with that after i'd looked at a few musty old books and found no answers there , so it fell away like my question about drinking .
What i'm doing now is the most significant thing . I don't ask myself unanswerable questions . I tend to ask myself what would i like to do ? What do i want ?
Bestwishes on your journey , m
Welcome along
For me the question shall i have a drink or not ? drove me crazy until i had it answered fully and affirmatively in my own mind that the answer would always be no . Once the question was answered to my satisfaction , the question went away , the thoughts and the torment of asking myself this question all the time went away as well .
To my way of thinking "is this all there is" pre-supposes there is something more to have . I never ask myself that question as i believe there is no way of knowing, i was satisfied with that after i'd looked at a few musty old books and found no answers there , so it fell away like my question about drinking .
What i'm doing now is the most significant thing . I don't ask myself unanswerable questions . I tend to ask myself what would i like to do ? What do i want ?
Bestwishes on your journey , m
Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 6
In my many years of life I have learned not to ask questions of myself for which there is no definite answer. Who could ever tell you "is that all there is" and is there any answer that would satisfy you? Mark Twain said " the two most important days of your life are when you were born and when you learn why".
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Marseille
Posts: 12
Thanks Dee74! For alcoholics of my type, there are always the questions . . . luckily, and this is the magic of the program, I feel much better now. I've unburdened my soul, so to speak. Thanks to you and everyone!
Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 286
I certainly don't have a fraction of the wisdom that you and these other repliers do but I did think of something when I read your post. I sometimes find myself in the "is this all there is" and "where do I go from here" type place and I came up with a new mantra for myself. When in doubt, go do for others.
Now, as a counselor for many years, you have obviously spent much of your life doing for others. And as a single mom raising three little kids, so have I. So to get a little more specific, I try to go do something, get involved in something, that lives where my passions and others' needs intersect. In other words, doing something I love but that gives to some other creature that needs help.
My latest thing, which I started right when I got sober a few months ago, was animals. I volunteer at the big animal shelter here (mainly walking dogs around the lake who would otherwise be in a cage most of the day). I love animals and these animals need my help. I'm good at it. I'm making a difference. I'm leaving with a smile on my face and the animals' day is better because I was there. Have I changed the world? No. Have I cured cancer? No. But it's something, for me and for them.
I know this sounds sort of simplistic and silly (or at least I'm feeling a bit foolish typing it) but it works for me. It fills my heart, keeps me interested, gives me purpose. So maybe while you're traveling in these places, you do something for the people there. I don't know. But I bet you do, or can find out pretty quickly.
Just a thought. I love that you posted this because I love seeing all the replies to these issues that are more philosophical in nature. It's fascinating.
Best,
Jackie
Now, as a counselor for many years, you have obviously spent much of your life doing for others. And as a single mom raising three little kids, so have I. So to get a little more specific, I try to go do something, get involved in something, that lives where my passions and others' needs intersect. In other words, doing something I love but that gives to some other creature that needs help.
My latest thing, which I started right when I got sober a few months ago, was animals. I volunteer at the big animal shelter here (mainly walking dogs around the lake who would otherwise be in a cage most of the day). I love animals and these animals need my help. I'm good at it. I'm making a difference. I'm leaving with a smile on my face and the animals' day is better because I was there. Have I changed the world? No. Have I cured cancer? No. But it's something, for me and for them.
I know this sounds sort of simplistic and silly (or at least I'm feeling a bit foolish typing it) but it works for me. It fills my heart, keeps me interested, gives me purpose. So maybe while you're traveling in these places, you do something for the people there. I don't know. But I bet you do, or can find out pretty quickly.
Just a thought. I love that you posted this because I love seeing all the replies to these issues that are more philosophical in nature. It's fascinating.
Best,
Jackie
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
"As the A.A. Big Book states, A.A. is a spiritual kindergarten. "
ive read the big book quite a few times but don't recall reading this. can you point out where that is?
"Is this all there is?"
only if that's all ya want. the direction of life is contigent on the decisions made about it, then the actions used to change the course.
Stupid, huh? But if I don't talk about it I will drink again . .
nope, not stupid.
ive read the big book quite a few times but don't recall reading this. can you point out where that is?
"Is this all there is?"
only if that's all ya want. the direction of life is contigent on the decisions made about it, then the actions used to change the course.
Stupid, huh? But if I don't talk about it I will drink again . .
nope, not stupid.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: MI
Posts: 452
Hi, Dramaron. Interesting thread you've started. I wonder if you felt this way before you retired, and while you were doing your work as a drug and alcohol counselor. Your retirement and travels sound like a lot of fun, but for me, too much time spent doing things just for my own entertainment ultimately feels empty. I find meaning and purpose in life by helping others in some way, and I need a balance of that as well as "me" time in order to feel happy and fulfilled. I don't think I'm unusual in this regard, and I think that's why the service orientation of AA/NA is so important to recovery. The notion that "you can't keep it unless you give it away" encourages helping others in a meaningful way, which gets you out of your own head and makes you feel like it matters that you are here, in this life.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Central Massachusetts
Posts: 2,051
As a born again agnostic, I personally don't see recovery as having much to do with the 12 steps at all anymore. In fact, my 'beyond' has consisted of shaking off what I for many years took for gospel in AA, in favor of finding a philosophy that fits my understanding of how one might stay sober and live life to its fullest.
Welcome to the site BTW.
Welcome to the site BTW.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
Hi dramaron,
What helps me the most when I have the "Is this all there is?" moments are the Buddhist principles of mindfulness and being fully present in the moment. There is beauty in the mundane if we are open to seeing it. The challenge of finding contentedness and peace in tasks like washing the dishes or standing in line at Walmart has challenged my mind. Simple...but not really. I tend to go on autopilot so often in life, that I must remember that I can decide to look at any conditions or circumstance or events (or lack thereof) in my life and see them differently. I can decide.
The other thing that has helped me grow is always learning new things. My hobbies are mostly self-taught. I love to create. It is my drug. Pushing myself physically is important to me too.
A critical thing to my continued growth is fearlessness. I mean it in the Buddhist sense, not in the sense of badass spartan in your face aggression (although that can be cool too ha) but rather the concept of equanimity. The idea that no matter what, all will be ok. A quiet confidence that I have nothing to fear is empowering. Life may not be comfortable, or ideal per se, but it will be ok. Nothing is static in life, bad things will happen, good things will happen. It's all part of the ride.
What helps me the most when I have the "Is this all there is?" moments are the Buddhist principles of mindfulness and being fully present in the moment. There is beauty in the mundane if we are open to seeing it. The challenge of finding contentedness and peace in tasks like washing the dishes or standing in line at Walmart has challenged my mind. Simple...but not really. I tend to go on autopilot so often in life, that I must remember that I can decide to look at any conditions or circumstance or events (or lack thereof) in my life and see them differently. I can decide.
The other thing that has helped me grow is always learning new things. My hobbies are mostly self-taught. I love to create. It is my drug. Pushing myself physically is important to me too.
A critical thing to my continued growth is fearlessness. I mean it in the Buddhist sense, not in the sense of badass spartan in your face aggression (although that can be cool too ha) but rather the concept of equanimity. The idea that no matter what, all will be ok. A quiet confidence that I have nothing to fear is empowering. Life may not be comfortable, or ideal per se, but it will be ok. Nothing is static in life, bad things will happen, good things will happen. It's all part of the ride.
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
