Effecting The Kids...

Old 02-19-2014, 05:01 AM
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Effecting The Kids...

So, here's where I'm at:

Facts:
  • My husband is a recovering alcoholic.
  • He was raised in a home with an alcoholic dad and alcoholic siblings.
  • His mom is a VERY emotionally controlling and emotionally abusive NPD.
  • I was raised my an NPD mom and an absentee dad (although I don't have any unresolved issues from my dad. My mom made me go to therapy as a kid becasue she was so convinced that I had issues from my dad not being around. Nope. I have issues from her but she sat in on my all of my therapy so I never got to talk about her. Ironic, huh?)

Goal:

Awareness of both my own and RAH's issues so as to not pass them onto our kids.

Problem:

When RAH was here this weekend he was making a snack for our toddler and she was in the fridge (I was trying to be hands off but I was just in the next room breastfeeding our baby) and I overheard him tell her "close the fridge. Oh no, you can't be in there or Mommy will get mad at Daddy. You don't want Daddy to be in trouble do you? Close the fridge. Mommy will get very mad at Daddy if you don't close it."

If I were to have confronted him about this on the spot ("Hey…if you want her to close the fridge, just tell her to do that. You don't need to 1. Bring me into it AND 2. You don't need to convince her that I'm the bad guy. I'm the only one that disciplines her. She already knows that I'm bad cop. Thanks!") I likely would have received a "It was a joke. Wow. Lighten up! It was JUST a joke." response, which is his go-to response as well as his mothers. I've confronted him about the joke response because I've read it on TWO NPD websites now as a manipulative common response and he still says it without realizing what he's doing.

My problem is that he's doing this crap to our kids and although I KNOW I can't control how he interacts with them - even though that's my first impulse - I'm a little freaked out about counteracting it and I STILL really want to say something to him. Like if he's aware I think he'll be more conscientious of how he speaks to her in such a negative way.

This is a big curveball for me and it makes me feel kinda helpless and a little defeated. I don't want my kids to pick up his unhealthy crap and he's not even aware that he's doing it. The day that one of my kids insults me and says it's a joke is the day that I lose my damn marbles and I feel like that's what he's positioning them to do. Although it's not intentional at this point, it IS what he's doing.

How do I prevent his crap from being picked up by our kids? Do I even have the power to do that?
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Old 02-19-2014, 05:49 AM
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Not a fan of "it was just a joke" excuse. Passive aggressive behavior.

I would address it with him. No long discussion. "Stop using me just discipline your children". I don't believe I would address what you feel are the possible repercussions in behavior, because that is just opening up a can of subjective worms and an argument. If he says "It was just a joke" I would respond with "Ok, you were joking? I am not. Stop".

In the future should he continue, using your example of what happened, I would walk into the kitchen, tell her you won't be mad at dad, and that she needs to close the fridge.

Certainly no parents are perfect. I had pretty close to perfect parents and can often remember one using the other for discipline in a slightly different manor "I am going to call your father if you don't stop……." Calling Dad at work meant big trouble. We avoided it.

You can try to get him curtail his behavior. Not sure you will succeed, and not sure how it will affect your children in the long run.
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Old 02-19-2014, 06:05 AM
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This is going to take a bit.

Just impressed with "Problem Statement" format.

1. Problem Statement

2. Solution(s) [Pending]

3. Answer(s) [Pending]

and then just select the optimal methods.

Your Project Management and Problem Solving Skills were WAY underused in Accounting.

Okay. Am done with gawking at the animals in the zoo (you), and will ponder this through a bit.

I have to deal with some of the same stuff.
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Old 02-19-2014, 06:08 AM
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I'm sorry, Stung. I wish I had answers but I'm right there with you... except 20 years later. It is an issue with my kids. Not oldest ds but both of the younger kids. Youngest ds is sarcastic like his father, and makes belittling comments under the guise of 'joking.' I am dealing with it. We are making house rules now that AH is gone and treating each other kindly and respectfully is top of my list! I can't control what is said while at their father's house, but I can model respectful/kind behavior and hope that my actions speak louder than his words. You are definitely right to be concerned about it.

On the counseling thing, I am shocked your counselor allowed your mother to sit in all the sessions? Occasionally, I will attend for part or all of an hour with the kids, or talk to the counselor by myself after their session. But, the majority of the sessions, the kids spend the entire time alone with the counselor. Wow.
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Old 02-19-2014, 06:20 AM
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Stung, I'd say it's never too late to bring it up, as long as you do it sensitive to expectations. If you still believe he will treat is as a joke, the ask him how he would feel if you were to say the same thing to the kids about him? Jokes make people laugh, no one is laughing at this behaviour. He won't change without knowing he is doing wrong in the first place
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Old 02-19-2014, 06:57 AM
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I wish I had the answers. I just want you to know I am here, reading this and supporting you.

((Stung))
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Old 02-19-2014, 06:58 AM
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Ugh, at your kids' ages this is such a hard thing. I *hate* the "I'm Joking" thing in a serious way.

I agree that it's passive aggressive & I've told RAH that it's a COP OUT to not having to think things through. That every time he resorts to that he is:

1.) taking the easy way out mentally &
2.) diluting his true humor so that when he IS funny, I don't even care **& that's a shame 'cuz he has a great sense of humor otherwise} &
3.) leaving me in a no-win situation of being the bad guy.... either I accept the dig as a "joke" which is not honoring myself or I stand up for myself & get ridiculed for how I "can't take a joke, geesh.... how uptight... let go, wouldya?" It's a no-win for me & an easy out for him at my expense... so where's the joke exactly?

BUT - he didn't "hear" any of that in early recovery or even really during his 2-yrs of recovery with no program. Until he stripped down & got REAL about things he just wasn't ready to accept some truths.

IDK how I would handle it with a toddler. DD was older when we started really having problems & then when things got really bad she was big enough to ask questions & voice her opinions.... so I followed her lead a lot to figure out what she was struggling with, etc. I *think* that if the situation presented & I was present I would gently & calmly correct him ("No, mommy wouldn't be mad at Daddy. Daddy just wants you to shut the door honey.") But I wouldn't interfere in the exchange from another room having "eavesdropped", kwim?

Otherwise it's a lead by example moment, IMO. She'll see mommy isn't getting mad at daddy for these things, wth is daddy talking about? At her age she'll feel your energy & use that as a gauge for the tension in the air, so if you are acting hostile, etc., she'll know. If you stay calm she'll read your emotional grid as stable & go from there.

It's where that "putting on our own oxygen masks before helping others" thing comes into play. The healthier you get, the healthier you will respond & your kids will benefit as much from your actions as your words.
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Old 02-19-2014, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Stung View Post
Like if he's aware I think he'll be more conscientious of how he speaks to her in such a negative way.
Stung, how's this worked for him in the past?

My husband, who's an ACOA and an alcoholic in early recovery, likely would think I was trying to be right, I'm trying to make him wrong and it's just the way he is. He doesn't mean anything by it and the problem is with me. Part knee-jerk reaction; part "ism" in alcoholism -- take away the booze and there's still a whole lot of crazy going on in the brain. Sadly, I can't control the timetable on that healing.

I might ask if he was open to talking about some problems I'm having. If no, I'd ask when would be a good time --good opening for scheduling a counseling session. If yes, then maybe I'd grab a couple chairs and set them face to face to get us in the mood for honest interaction. I'd probably even say that I'm having a hard time communicating and need to practice this -- so very true for me!! (crap, yes, I really need to do this)

Keep to communication statements that directly effect you, not the kids: "I'm having a hard time with this..." "When you say this, it makes me feel..."

If I'd approach it as "it's not right" or "it'll make the kids feel", then he's going to get defensive and start wanting to prove me wrong.

Know what your boundary will be and how you'll follow through with it. The hardest part is if he continues to do this when you're not around, but only monitors himself when you could hear him. That's why I'd probably hand it over to his therapist to talk to him about.

---------------

Firesprite, thank you! I've lost my emotional balance the last few days and am trying to find it. That does help.
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Old 02-19-2014, 07:23 AM
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I guess I would agree with redatlanta in her suggestion to change what you can...and to keep it simple. People only hear what they are ready to hear, and he is prob not at that point in his recovery...and only the universe knows if he will ever be...but you will ne learning a new skill and taking care of your kids! And hopefully everyone will. Benefit frim your example! Good luck!
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Old 02-19-2014, 07:47 AM
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Ugh. Thanks guys. I have my appointment with my counselor today too so I'll be bringing this up with her. I didn't say anything to him when it happened, I've been mulling it over internally with the possibility that I would forget it after a few days. Nope, still on my mind. I think bickering in front of her would actually justify what he was saying (and cause way more damage than his comments alone) but I would have been mad for a whole different reason. So I just sat there and figured that she wouldn't know what he was talking about. I do let her choose her own snacks out of the fridge...he wouldn't know that though.

I'll talk to him about it in a non judgmental or blamey way. The problem is that he's hyper sensitive to criticism like I am (one day that will be a WAS not am!) but he's also trying really hard to be understand where I'm coming from.

JustAGirl - yes, all of them. When I was a teen I argued with my mom. A lot. That could ONLY mean that *I* had problems so to therapy we went and she sat in on them all because she was suffering so much because I argued so much. But I never went consistently. I have no idea how therapy with adolescents or teens is supposed to go but I feel now that it would have been a lot better if she would have just not been in there so I could have vented about her. I didn't need her directing me or telling me what she thought my problems were at that point.
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Old 02-19-2014, 07:50 AM
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Or better yet... on further thought...you could simply say to the child "you need to mind your daddy"...that would put the responsibility in the child to follow the rules, she will see her mother working with her father (because she prob sees the oposite in an alcoholic home) and maybe give him an oportunity to see that there are other effective methods....after all we are all a product of our environment and this recovery thing has a learning curve on both sides of the street? Shoveling and thinking...
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Old 02-19-2014, 07:51 AM
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Well... it's hard.

What I had to contend with was slightly different -- AXH was actively trying to put a wedge between me and the kids by saying bad things about me when the kids were in his care. My approach was to focus on telling them the truth when they were with me. I never cheated on your father. I will never be angry with you if you come to me with things he has said and ask me if they're true. Etc.

For me, it was another one of those things I could not control. Like I couldn't control if he made sure they had lunches when they were staying with him. Or like I couldn't control if he made sure they went to bed at a decent time.

My therapist kept telling me that the only thing I had control over was MY relationship with the kids, and how WE interacted. And that creating a healthy home and showing them I love them is the best way to provide them with a model of what a good relationship looks like.

She said "You can't make him behave towards them like you'd like him to. You spent 20 years trying to make him behave like you wanted him to. How'd that work out for you?"

I think in a situation like yours, if you show in action that you don't get mad if she keeps the fridge open -- you just calmly explain to her that the food goes bad if the door is kept open for long periods of time, and you'd like her to remember to get what she needs and then close the door -- she will learn that whatever Dad says, Mom will not get angry at her for minor things.
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Old 02-19-2014, 07:54 AM
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You were smart not to address it in the moment, but I do think it is worth addressing during a calm time. During a therapy session would be great, but if you are not doing that, maybe just some other calm time. He may not be doing it consciously, if he was raised in a dysfunctional environment and that is what was modeled for him (or not). But usually you get better results if you can give the benefit of the doubt. To avoid him getting on the defensive, I like the ideas above of all those good communication strategies of I statements, etc. There might be room in the conversation to cushion what you are saying with "I know you are probably not even aware of this, but I have notcied that..." to give him a little "out" and if he is good dad and wants the best for his kids, you can use that, too-focus on your common goals of wanting to raise strong healthy well-adjusted kids as you briefly explain, give a specific example, and request/model how another approach might be better for all involved.

It might work, or it might not. Old habits are hard to break, so he may be amenable to change, but still doesn't get it right every time. I would encourage compassion and encouragement moving forward if that is the case. "I love how you've been more direct in your corrections of Toddler-she is really responding well. I appreciate your efforts." kind of stuff. When you see the behaviors in him you want, praise and encourage them and help him to see why they are beneficial. If he blows you off and is not open to the conversation, then that is one more piece of info you have to consider in future decisions about your family.

Above all, you have to model for your daughter what you want her to know, beleive, and see in you. If daddy doesn't discipline her right and mommy does gets mad at daddy then daddy will "win" here. If you are gentle and loving, yet firm with her, and treat her daddy kindly and with respect, even if he doesn't "deserve it", you can't go wrong. Eventually she will be old enough and have enough exeriences with dad to see his manipulations for what they are, if they persist.

Her relationship with you will be based on her experiences with you. It will be maddening if his behavior like this continues, but your best defense will always be a strong offense. We can't protect our kids from hurt or from being influenced by others completely, but we can innoculate them as best we can, and be their rock and their soft place to come back to when they figure out the hard truths of the world for themselves.
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Old 02-19-2014, 08:15 AM
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No experience here just prayers your way.
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Old 02-19-2014, 08:16 AM
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What I had to contend with was slightly different -- AXH was actively trying to put a wedge between me and the kids by saying bad things about me when the kids were in his care. My approach was to focus on telling them the truth when they were with me. I never cheated on your father. I will never be angry with you if you come to me with things he has said and ask me if they're true. Etc.

For me, it was another one of those things I could not control. Like I couldn't control if he made sure they had lunches when they were staying with him. Or like I couldn't control if he made sure they went to bed at a decent time.

My therapist kept telling me that the only thing I had control over was MY relationship with the kids, and how WE interacted. And that creating a healthy home and showing them I love them is the best way to provide them with a model of what a good relationship looks like.

She said "You can't make him behave towards them like you'd like him to. You spent 20 years trying to make him behave like you wanted him to. How'd that work out for you?"
Ditto. I have no control over their relationships with their dads. I battled with my son's dad for a long time, arguing over whether it was okay for him to probe my son for evidence I was abusing him or neglecting him, arguing over whether it was okay to tell my son to keep secrets from me. I argued with him over little things about whether or not some of his parenting choices were appropriate, and why he did this or that. There was never any cooperation between our households. Eventually I came to realize there never really would be. Some of my complaints were a clash in parenting styles -- some of them were 100% legitimate concerns that were never addressed. It created a lot of anxiety in me. It was a waste of my time, and at times it made me look and behave unacceptably.

Parenting is a long game and it takes a long view. You just do the right thing, whatever that is, and know that eventually your children will respect your ability to remain steady and manage your business while the other party(ies) flailed around making excuses for why the child's best interest took a backseat to their denial and manipulation.
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Old 02-19-2014, 08:21 AM
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I will also say: I know that my anxiety around DS14's dad created a lot of conflict and anxiety for my son. It's one of my biggest parenting regrets. I am thankful for having gone through my own recovery because it has given me the tools to manage this kind of conflict with grace I didn't possess before.

If I had to give you advice (cough), I would suggest talking this over with your therapist and logging it away in the observation files. You're still taking stock in your RAH's recovery and whether or not the *r* in his modifier is going to work out for you. I wouldn't pick this hill to die on.
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Old 02-19-2014, 09:03 AM
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Florence, I agree. I really need to emotionally emancipate myself from him and my mom and all of my yucky stuff, but that's a big ol' project that I'm working on. I'm definitely talking to my counselor about this today. I was hoping that I was blowing this out of proportion in my mind when it happened but I can't let it go. But I know this stuff will keep happening so I need to learn how to handle it either on my own or jointly with him.

I guess the real answer is that I need to keep trudging along with my own recovery and just focus on being the best parent I can be. This shiz is tough!!!
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Old 02-19-2014, 09:16 AM
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Stung...it is sad. As the kids get older they recognize the manipulation. My kids can see it quite clearly. They see it better than I do in all reality. Kids are amazing at watching what actions line up with words. They know who the consistant parent is.

Hope you can relax a little today!
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Old 02-19-2014, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Stung View Post
I guess the real answer is that I need to keep trudging along with my own recovery and just focus on being the best parent I can be. This shiz is tough!!!
Hi Stung,

I hope you see how much you have already grown in your recovery just from your statement above. A little while back, you didn't think you needed to change. Now, look where you are. You are doing great, girl.

As far as your situation goes with ah making you out to be the house warden, I think that happens in lots of families with or without alcohol involved. I have several girlfriends who complain to me about the exact same thing. They hate that they are the disciplinarians and "NO" parents, while the dads are the good time guys of the house.
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Old 02-19-2014, 11:40 AM
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Just a thought that hit me while I was reading this thread. I found that some of the things my son has been doing while we all heal from this mess...snappy anger, etc, my girls would start saying..he's acting like "D and having a man fit over nothing". I put a stop to that for several reasons and put a stop to insults and bickering...or at least the beginning of a stop.
Our new house rule, if you are going to insult someone (which realistically, it happens people and we shouldn't but it happens) you have to say something nice about them first. That makes my kids stop and think up something nice, and by the time they have done that they no longer wanna insult the other person. Usually. Secondly, I invoked a ten second rule. If someone in our house is angry or upset, including me, they have to wait ten seconds before responding to anything, even if it means they stand and count out loud. That makes them THINK, instead of react, and therefore ponder whether what the other person said is worth reacting to, ponder their reaction and resulting words. Its a work in progress, and I have to keep yelling TEN SECONDS! or NICE THING FIRST! constantly, but we are getting there. Some of the nice things that come out are hilarious, and we all end up cracking up instead of continuing to argue. I have tried very hard to impress upon them that every action they do, everything they say will have an effect somehow on this world, and they need to not be rash and irresponsible with themselves and their own actions/reactions and words. Teach them this and maybe, as Hopeful said above, they will see through Daddy's headgames. Trust me, kids see and hear everything, and they understand far more than we like to admit.
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