hopeful4

As most of you know, I have struggled for years in contemplation of divorcing my AH. He is a binge drinker who only drinks once in a while now, but it has lead to great trouble in our lives and it is something I cannot live with.

My friend has a 14 year old daughter just like I do (I also have an 8 year old). As I get closer to separating, we were talking today. She told me to think long and hard about it and if she had a choice she would have stayed with her alcoholic husband and kept her children intact. She said she thinks he still drinks and has heard he drives her daughter when drinking. Her daughter will not say anything in fear that her mom will intervene, so she cannot prove it. He is also just a bad influence on her daughter as well as his new girlfriend is also.

She said as miserable as it made her, the unknown of what is happening with her daughter every other weekened makes her wish she would have stayed. My husband is nothing on the same scale as hers was. She feels like her own life is much better but not her daughter's. Her daughter is an A student who has now had her grades drop and is hanging out with thugs and I have heard she is now doing drugs too. Her mom is having her hair follicle tested next week.

I say all of this because these are my biggest fears. I am sorry, and I am sure this is a trigger for many on here and I am certainly not trying to make anyone feel bad or be hurt. I guess I am just second guessing myself all the time and don't know what to do about that. I do have an appt next week w/a therapist who has specialized in addiction and this type of thing, so that hopefully will help guide me. I just don't know.

I am still in an ok place today. Still going to do all I can to make my kids feel special and be happy. I guess I am just tottering on this fence I feel like I have been tightroping on this same line back and forth for years...and every time I feel confident in myself something happens to make me second guess myself.

Please God guide me to do what is right.

Thank you for listening to me....again. Have a blessed day!

spiderqueen

Hi Hopeful,
This is disturbing information for you, I'm sorry you had to hear something that played on your worst fears.

I tend to agree with people on here who say that having one, solid stable home - totally free of alcoholism and other bad influences - counteracts the time that kids spend with their A parent. Plus, there is a lot you can do to minimize the visitation with the A, especially with older kids who have a say in custody arrangements, and also can call you if they are worried.

Having said that, I can completely understand your fears (and many others here) of giving up control during the time you would be away from your kids. But somehow, the sacrifice to you and them of staying, which does on some level make you complicit, seems very damaging, too.

I am sorry - I'm sure others will be along soon with helpful ES&H for you.

JustAGirl1971

I'm sorry, hopeful. It is such a hard decision. The thing is though, we can't base our decisions on what ifs and other people's experiences. They are just that: possibilities. I think we have to base our decision on the facts as we know them right now, for our families.

Really, depending on who you talk to, you will hear sound reasons why you should stay... and sound reasons why you should go. The majority of ACOAs that I've spoken with wish their sober parent would have left their alcoholic parent. I, too, am an ACOA and am actually thankful that my parents stayed together.... OTOH, my oldest son told me that he prayed for years that I would leave his father Ultimately, for me, I've realized that this is not the picture of marriage that I want to model to my children. I do not want them to think that husbands and wives should treat each other this way. Nor do I want them to think it's acceptable to put alcohol above your family's welfare. In the beginning, I was very conflicted but the closer we get to him leaving, the stronger my resolve, greater my peace, and the more certain I feel.

But, that's me and my family Your family is not my own and your decision is not mine to make. I think today's reading in Courage to Change speaks well to this type of confusion. If you haven't read it (Carlotta's post), you may want to check it out. Hugs, hopeful. I know it's hard but our God has a plan for you that is greater than you could hope or imagine. Rest in that

Florence

Your friend's statement is a naked statement about control and a loss of control over her daughter's well-being. It's a mistake, however, to think that a) your friend is powerless over her situation, b) that her daughter is worse off having limited time with her alcoholic dad, and that c) her opinion should color your decisions. Is your friend in a recovery program? She has a lot of options.

Teenager behavior is often a reflection of the households they live in. They're growing and changing, but have so little control over their own circumstances. They are frequently frustrated and looking for ways to differentiate themselves from their families.

I was a screwed up kid. I know the "thugs and drugs" mode of operation intimately, and some of it brought me here where I am today. But I can say confidently that if I'd grown up in a home where my parents took responsibility for their actions and for my protection and well-being and were less interested in me shutting up and maintaining their fantasy, "thugs and drugs" wouldn't have looked so appetizing.

You don't need your friend's permission or input to leave or stay, either way. When it was time for me to make the call on my marriage, it was not something that was up for discussion. I just did it. It was a little kernel of something that I grew into full-fledged conviction with a lot of time, experience, SR and therapy. You don't have to do or not do anything today. You will know.

hopeful4

Thank you all, you are all correct. Her home life is alot different than mine would be. She really was not trying to tell me to stay or go, it started with me telling her some things I know about her daughter that she needed to know and the talk went from there.

I guess for me it now goes beyond just the drinking. I am unhappy in my marriage and I cannot think that is good for my children. I can already see the issues coming out in them now.

The other day I questioned my AH's purchase at a gas station for $3.40. I knew what it was for and I should not have even asked, it was for a couple of beers. It was a test really. He lied to me just like I knew he would. Apparently my older daughter overheard us talking about it (we really did not fight so I was surprised, but her ears can be very sharp when she wants to know what's going on). Anyways, what she thinks is that I am mad at him for spending a measly $3.00 when in reality it has nothing to do with that. I told her there is more to the story and left it at that, but it took me a bit to figure out why she was acting mad at me.

I think this is the type of stuff I just cannot stand. I get so sick of the roller coaster ride and have to think it has to be be bad for me and my kids.

I will not get to go to CR this weekend b/c my older daughter has a cheer comp and I really hate to miss. However, I do go meet with this new therapist soon so that will help. I may go to a different CR meeting on Tues if I still feel this way.

I wish I was not such a controlling person and this person who obsesses so much with the future. It is correct, I cannot base my life on what if's. I do pretty well living in the now but when I fall from it, I fall hard.

I know I can do this and I thank you all so much for walking by my side. It's still a good day and I am still going to enjoy every second with my kids!

God Bless!

Stung

That's my biggest fear too, that and if we divorce that he'll be able to expose our daughters to his very dysfunctional, enabling, belittling, crap talking family without me there to counteract any damage that they do. BUT I agree with SpiderQueen that the value in having a stable non-alcoholic home will cancel out any negativity that living in an alcoholic home can cause.

Also, I feel compelled to add that although my best friend in high school did get into the whole "thugs and drugs" thing and she came from a divorced (although non-alcoholic) home I did not not get into that scene even though I came from my own dysfunctional, divorced household. I was very into sports and because of that I had to maintain grades and spent lots of time with other girls who were playing sports and maintaining their grades too and I ultimately earned a collegiate athletic scholarship. To an extent, it really just depends on your kids and I think keeping an open, honest and ongoing dialogue with them about their long term goals is important, especially for teenagers.

Hammer

I guess you maybe know I went WAY OFF the Alanon and CR Reservation -- and went for the Full Open and Honest approach that NAMI uses.

http://search.*****.com/r/_ylt=A0SO8...Boundaries.doc

If that link works, that is a download doc file (yes, I know a goof-ball PITA method), but among other things it suggests is:

==============

THE TRUTH BOUNDARY

The Well Spouse must categorically refuse to hide the illness from children, extended family and friends. Only if the MIS is working is there justification for hiding the illness, and then only from work colleagues. Not telling creates enormous isolation. Not telling and talking creates enormous confusion for children. Not telling and talking prevents education. Not telling and talking prevents development of good coping skills. No Family Secrets! No Stigma! This is a biological brain disorder. It is an Illness, like any other.

==============

(MIS = Mentally Ill Spouse)

Full and Open Truth has taken REALLY Good Care of the Kids.

I can openly ask, and they can openly tell me what they want.

They even asked for contingencies if Mom relapses. Want to know that I have their back and the (metaphorical) fire alarms and exits all work. I do, they are, all is good.

My Encouragement, Strength and Hope on this matter -- Kids are smart and can speak their mind if they have fully open and fully truthful information.

The kids have spoken their minds, clearly and intelligently, have the capacity to change their mind if conditions change -- and looping back towards this starting topic -- that is why per their request, I am: Hold things together, Dad. This I shall.

Anyway.

Would suggest you FULLY Educate Your Kids, AND Ask Them What They Desire.

===========

Just put the whole thing on here:

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...l-illness.html

lizatola

I feel your pain and can totally relate to where you are coming from. A few months ago the lovely Christian woman who runs our homeschool co-op had to talk to me about my son's writing class. The conversation turned to our family life and I confided in her about
my AH's alcoholism. She, then, confided in me and told me about how her 19 year old daughter is now a drug addict and that their family has been turned upside down.

Her daughter was dating a boy at age 17 who committed suicide. To deal with her pain, she turned to drugs which were offered to her at a party. 2 years later and her college dreams were shattered, she finally got her GED because she dropped out of high school, and has done jail time(a LOT of it).

One thing this woman pressed on me was about how the best laid plans THAT WE HAVE for our children are just that: OUR PLANS. They are not God's plans and that is where the problem lies. She told me that her daughter was getting scholarship offers, full rides, for gymnastics. She was a straight A student and had her whole life mapped out in front of her. And, then, the drugs came in and changed everything....for all of them. This is a family of 4, committed to the church, Biblically sound in raising their children, etc and even they suffered from the fallout of addiction.

I guess my point here is to say that no family is immune. I have stayed in my marriage for the exact fears that you express so I am by no means trying to sway an opinion one way or another. It was just a story that opened my eyes and made me realize that I am not in control, God is. We do not know what God has planned for our children and I know it kills us as parents to grasp the fact that we can only protect them from so much. God, it kills me sometimes because I am a total control freak! Such a hard lesson for me to learn, but I am working on it. Hugs to you, you are not alone!

LoveMeNow

Hammer, while I usually value your posts, I must respectfully disagree with your advice. I don't believe asking children to make adult choices is a wise idea.

CodeJob

My critter and I touch base periodically about RAH. RAH is intent on burying his A. He has tried to push us to accept his version of reality. Sometimes I call him on it, sometimes critter and I crack a joke or roll our eyes. But every now and then critter and I touch base bc I want him to know I am there and will do my best to acknowledge his issues and concerns.

At this moment, I am the only one in T. But I am open about it and have asked them both if they'd like to go as well. Critter went this summer but declined AlaTeen thus far.

RAH having some HALT issues, so last week during car run to activity we talked about RAHs compulsions to exhaust himself. I explained HALT. We joked around about being hangry. Then I dropped it.

Critter needs to know I am on the case. That if H relapses, we kick him out and then get some Chinese after AlAnon.

FireSprite

Hopeful, if you don't mind my asking... why aren't you telling your DD the "whole" story?

I only ask because I was that kid that got a lot of half-stories & had to fill in the blanks a lot & it is totally confusing as a kid. Especially when it feels like you are having to pick between your parents - which IS what it feels like even if no one ever verbalizes it, believe me. While I saw my dad's dysfunction, my mother's inability to talk truths/be transparent with me despite the fact that she leaned on me to help with other responsibilities was such a mixed message. I felt like I was mature enough to be depended upon, but not enough to be trusted with the truth of what was happening in my own home. It screwed up my relationship with my mom in a BIG way for a LONG time. In my mind, she wasn't any healthier than my father.

As far as your friend goes, I have a few thoughts. She is not YOU and if she were working a program she would realize that staying with her Ex would not have provided any more expectation of control than she has now. She is "what-if'ing" and is speaking from a place of regrets simply because that has been her experience. Also - your DD is not her DD - there is no reason to believe that she would be affected the same way. Especially if you keep open lines of communication.

I find that often when I have made up my mind but am struggling to commit to/implement my convictions, that THAT is when my HP throws stuff like this in my path like a test of sorts.... just to see..... will I let ONE story full of fear and regret sway me on my opinion which is built upon months of therapy, awareness, learning & truths? Maybe this is something like that for you?

velma929

At 14, youngsters are old enough to start saying "I won't get into a car with you." In fact practicing that would be a good idea, so as to have the phrase down pat two or three years from now. They will have friends who drink too much, dates who drink too much.

Let me tell you what happened to my folks. My Dad was a functional alcoholic. He worked for thirty years for the government, no problems, although I do recall a time or two he was obviously drunk at home- but really, only a time or two.

After he retired, he started to drink more. You know the drill, though. As tolerance increases, one needs more drug to get the desired effect. One looks sober and acts sober, even as the BAC goes up.

velma929

One day I called to check on Mom because she'd broken her leg. Dad was obviously drunk. I worried that in that state, she was taking care of herself AND him, when he ought to be doing the caretaking. But she said all was fine.

One Saturday I called and she didn't answer. That was odd, since I called every week at the same time. When she called back, it was terrible news. They had gone out to dinner with another couple, they'd been involved in an accident on the way home, Dad was driving, and there had been a fatality. His BAC was .12, but neither my Mom or the other couple thought he was at all impaired.

My 76 year-old father was subsequently charged and convicted of DUI vehicular manslaughter. The criminal trial was bad enough. The DA wanted to sentence my father to 17 years in jail. He went to trial and the judge gave him a much shorter sentence.

Then there was a civil action. The victim's family sued Mom and Dad for $750,000. That's right, three quarters of a million. Now, if you're O.J. Simpson, you can get an F. Lee Bailey to represent you. If you're just an average Joe, you know what you get?

Nothin'.

Many personal injury lawyers will come out of the woodwork to help you get money, because hey take a percentage of the sum for compensation. The one being sued is bound to be losing money, though. Unless you're rich and famous, no one will take your case. My folks had what most people have, two or three hundred thousand dollars worth of liability coverage. That still left them $450,000 short. No one, not even the lawyers from the insurance company, would help them. Mom and Dad had to figure out pretty much on their own how to proceed, what assets they couldn't be forced to give up, etc., and do this all on collect phone calls from the prison.

Get out, while the getting is good. Hitching your financial future to an alcoholic's star is a recipe for disaster.

Hammer

Oh, all good.

And as Pohfriend's noted a while back on here . . . this is a One Size Fits One world we all find ourselves in.

I would think in our case it is not so much that kids are compelled to make a choice of this, that, org the other thing. It is more that their opinions, views and concerns are considered first (at least by me) with review of some Very Trusted Alanon folks, Sponsor(s) and now even a Very Competent T who knows our Full History(s) in Great Detail.

But to do that, the kids have to understand what is really going, at a level and context they can understand. So that is what I give them. The real issue is whether kids should get the truth -- the point of the NAMI article -- not any choice the kids have to make or not make.

On the other side of things with Mrs. Hammer -- she is still very much in the Dry Drunk / Mental Illness end of things. She will lie to and try to manipulate the kids. They are not stupid. They know this. They come and tell me so.

And in all this, you follow that we are dealing in matters WAY beyond *just* Alcohol and Addictions? Mrs. Hammer has all the A stuff, too, but those were just rest-stops along the Highway to Hell. Actually some Real Mental Illness, and that is why the NAMI (National Alliance for Mental Illness) approach was sought and followed.

And again, this type stuff is not cookie cutter, not all the same for everyone, and of course, YMMV.

MissFixit

Hi

I think your friend sounds like she is thinking the grass is greener over there. Living with active addiction is not greener. It is not better. AND you have the added craziness of never being able to leave it, because the crazy is at home. Over time you think that this crazy environment is normal and the kids will think crazy and unstable is familiar.

If you can establish a safe, healthy household without the A, then even if it is only part time, that healthy environment is better for your kids than full time crazy.

JackieC

This is a hard one. Pretty much as hard as they come. My parents divorced when I was 12, due to my dad's alcoholism. Before they divorced, however, it seemed my mom was always having to be the "bad guy" by "nagging" him, questioning him, trying to get him to get help. They would scream and fight all the time about it, ever since I can remember. But little kids don't understand about those kind of dynamics -- all I saw was my mom yelling at my dad all the time and him sitting there, taking it. Now of course, I have no end of sympathy for her and realize the yelling and the "nagging" was her attempts to save him and the marriage and our family -- and him just sitting there was actually him refusing to get help.

Okay this is all rambling but my point is this. Even now, thirty years later, my mom still asks me "Should I have stayed married so you could have a more traditional family and not have to be a child of divorce? Should I have stuck it out?" And I can tell her that I believe she did the right thing. As an adult now, I am amazed she stayed as long as she did. Not only was she happier after the divorce, she was also more of her true self -- the person she is without all the yelling and screaming at my dad. It made me able to see that part of her instead of just all the noise of a woman in a horrible marriage who was miserable and desperate.

I'm divorced now, too. I was the instigator of the divorce and after years of counseling and trying, one therapist pointed out to me that even though the kids' dad and I never fight (ever, never even raised our voices), that doesn't mean we weren't modeling a bad marriage. We were both so unhappy, we were dragging ourselves along, faking it for the rest of the world and not being true to ourselves. And the therapist asked me -- do you want your daughter to think it's okay to have a marriage like yours? Do you want her to wake up in a similar marriage someday? That was a powerful moment for me.

However, there are equally important arguments on all sides -- the importance of commitment and keeping vows and riding out the bad waves, showing my daughter that we don't just give up when it gets difficult -- that keep people in marriages. And oftentimes that is absolutely the right thing to do. None of the above is meant to push you to a decision. Just offering one more perspective.

Of course you know that you are the only one who can answer the question for your marriage.

Either way, you have support here.

Hammer

Just as a follow-on . . . .

Consider these two models . . . .

AND

All I am saying is that in our house, I would have told the kid(s) who were concerned that there is a Alcohol issue, and that Dad (or Mom) should not be buying and drinking beer while driving the kids around.

The kids would just say "oh, gee, I guess that is right."

And the matter passes. No resentment and no confusion.

Mrs. Hammer may later be upset . . . But she is not My Problem, nor My Priority.

dandylion

Hopeful4----if one used this logic----her daughter "went bad" because the parents got divorced.....therefore, the same thing will happen to me. Then we could also say that nobody should get married either......because we heard of some marriages that did not work out.

You cannot compare dissimilar situations to each other. There are gazillions of variable at play, here.

I believe working this out with your therapist is the most solid thing that you can do. I also think it is a good idea to see a child/adolescent psychologist to discuss your fears and get advice from as to how to guide your children. They have experience in this--and they have seen it all. You could benefit from their knowledge and experience. I have a friend whose wife died--and he goes regularly to an adolescent psychologist to discuss parenting issues about his girls. He says that it has been a tremendous help.

I remember it said in my "Marriage and Family" course textbook.....that the majority of children of divorce make a satisfactory adjustment. About 20 to 25% do not. It must be considered that the statistics are worse when the child lives in a toxic, but not divorced family setting. It seems that the difference is in how the divorce is handled in regards to the children----and how secure they feel that someone loves them and how secure they feel in 24hr. increments.

You have much more control and power in your children's life that you realize you do.

dandylion

ladyscribbler

Apparently my older daughter overheard us talking about it (we really did not fight so I was surprised, but her ears can be very sharp when she wants to know what's going on). Anyways, what she thinks is that I am mad at him for spending a measly $3.00 when in reality it has nothing to do with that. I told her there is more to the story and left it at that, but it took me a bit to figure out why she was acting mad at me.

My dad's alcoholism was hidden from me for years. I didn't know anything about it until I was in my 20's. Once I found out, a lot of crazy stuff from my childhood finally started to make sense. I guess my mom thought she was doing me a favor by "protecting" me. It still royally screwed me up though. The damage was done, and a belated realization of the truth was not really helpful after the fact. Your daughter knows something is wrong, and she is going to fill in the blanks you and your ah are leaving in ways you can't even imagine. Whatever you decide to do about your marriage, your kids deserve the truth. Honesty is not the same thing as badmouthing someone.

LoveMeNow

I am speaking for myself but would like to give others some food for thought.

It wasn't until I sought therapy, a Christian therapist, a coda course, etc, did I discover many of what I thought were my concerns, fears or values ..... Were nothing more then excuses in disguise.

I am a Christian and can't divorce. I can not financially afford it, in sickness and healthy. You name it, I could come up with it. The truth was and is ..... It was all fear based. I could talk the talk about how I knew God would be with me but I couldn't walk the walk.

I had to work on my fear. I finally decided my faith in God could not hold a candle to my fear. For me, really understanding and believing it made all the difference.

So I had to answer.....how I measured fear was based on how big my God is.