Stung

In my head, I view AH making amends with me as a huge production.

In my mind, this will be the apologies to end all apologies. It occurred to me today, that I will probably just get a drawn out "I'm sorry" rather than AH on his knees on a cobble stone street begging for my forgiveness through tears while he's being rained on. For some reason I'm thinking I live in the Notebook and I'm married to Ryan Gosling. But that's what I anticipate happening, somehow.

Have any of you had a spouse make amends with you? What was it like? Are you allowed to share that stuff or is that supposed to stay private?

I ask because he gives me some pretty good apologies nearly daily. This evening I got this one from him:

I'm sorry for what I have done to you, xxx, and xxx. I have so many regrets regarding my behavior, my lies, and my attitude. I am truly sorry.

^^^ is that what my amends from him is going to be like? Except in person and probably no tears and most likely not on his knees.

And yes, I'm future tripping big time here. I know. I'm just curious and some of you have already gone through this stuff and my AH may never get past step 1 but I'm still curious.

marie1960

Romancing some notions ?

OK, I can understand

BUT

What about you and how you are feeling and your response to his apology?

That is if you care to share ?

suki44883

Stop future-tripping. You're just getting yourself all worked up about things that may never happen. Instead of worrying about what HE is going to do, start thinking about what YOU want.

Stung

You mean to the apology he texted me today?

Erm, I will probably sound bitchy but I ignore mostly his apologies and have since I made him leave nearly a month ago. He doesn't fully understand the impact of his actions IMO so his apology is more about himself than me. Does that makes sense? However, they are becoming less about him and more about me and our daughters. But he still doesn't understand why he's apologizing, in my very humble, speculative opinion.

That's why a big romantic, overdone apology would be more about me. That's probably my why I feel like that.

What I want, is for him to be restored (within reason) to what he was before or even better. It's a total realistic possibility at this point and does happen for many people. It also doesn't happen for many people. That's life. I want my husband to complete his program and be whole, happy and healthy. The residual effect of that (ideally) is that I get my Pre-addiction hubby (funny, considerate, intelligent, affectionate, gentle and kind) back and we get to be one big happy family and walk off into the sunset together.

Stung

Suki, I know I'm future tripping. Do college students not think about graduation while they're still studying for finals? Do pregnant women not think about holding their newborn babies? Thinking of the future is part of the human condition.

I'm thinking about what *I* may or may not be getting. Which currently, I may not even get a tomorrow but that doesn't mean I shouldn't think about the errands I need to do in the morning.

Carlotta

I know it sounds like a great fantasy but I am also in AA and I can tell you from firsthand experience that most AA members do not work the steps and a lot of people do relapse before they even have a chance to reach step 9.
Step 9 is a big roadblock for alcoholics and addicts (for obvious reasons).
Also I am not sure if you are in Al Anon but if you are, when you work the steps (same thing than AA, lots of people go there for the fellowship but not that many work the program which is the steps) you might find out that you have some amends to make to him....>please don't beat me up, I did not make that one up!<
Hammer has a thread today about it....
When I worked the steps in Al Anon, I was dismayed to see that I had some amends to make (including to my X). What? Me? The sweet little blameless victim? Amends???...but yep recovery sometimes is a b...h LOL
I have worked the steps in both fellowship btw and what is kind of ironic is that most of the people I harmed were through my crazy codie behavior rather than through my own alcoholism (was a secret drinker).

Stung

I have apologized to him on several occasions. It's not entirely his fault that things spiraled this far. I was pregnant and then just had a baby when things got out of control. I should have sucked it up and kicked his drunk ass out long ago and just pulled myself up by the bootstraps. It's hard but oh well. That's life. I know I exacerbated some of his behavior. I'm aware now and I'm aware of my behaviors and I *try* to improve myself everyday. I have forgiven myself. He says that he's still entirely to blame - which is why I write off his current apologies.

Al anon isn't for me. I'm sure it's a great program and works wonders for many, many people but I personally don't feel that emotional improvement and remedy is one size fits all.

Mags1

Hiya Stung, I'm the recovering one in our relationship and I wish I knew what my husband wanted or not wanted. I think I'm trying too hard and it's exasperating, not playing down my drunk behaviour mind you, just wish I had some guidelines to follow.

I'm not begging or asking for forgiveness every day just getting on with life but wanting it sugary coated with romance etc blah blah blah, I'm in the menopause so please accept my weirdness, we never really displayed emotions much before I was sober, now I want the moon! X

Stung

I do not need nor want the daily apologies either. But I don't know how to tell him to stop without giving the impression that he is forgiven. Plus, I think they're about him anyway, not me.

Mags1

I can see it's difficult for both sides, with both experiences and feelings the most important , or should be to ourselves.
Apologies every day may seem like an empty vessel, they always make the loudest noise.
But do we act on them or tend to go over the top of our head?
At the end of the day we have to do what's best for ourselves and maybe ask him to stop the apologising outlining no decisions have been made yet for your future. In reality, actions speak louder than words.

Hopeworks

Actions do speak louder than words and amends are not supposed to be just apologies but are supposed to be about restoration. Whatever bad behaviors created harm they are supposed to try to correct and restore...borrowed unpaid debt should be paid back, something stolen returned or recovered, lies told should be admitted and harm mitigated etc...

Are there actions other than remorse and apologies that you are looking for in an amends to you?

Most A's do brush or skip over this step rather lightly and that is unfortunate because it can a lifechanger...but it is an uncomfortable step and A's don't like to "feel" in the first place and that is what the program is about...learning how to "feel" emotions such as remorse, empathy and learn proper responses to wrong behaviors. A relationship skill that they are usually lacking.

Don't expect the world and you won't be let down... Rome wasn't built in a day and A's don't usually have a fairy dust experience where they instantly or eventually turn into the Prince Charming we believe they are deep down inside!

MissFixit

my exA said that he did the steps but did not make any amends despite saying he did. he did apologize after his rehab (general i am sorry and i won't do it again), but it was lip service as he relapsed and things got worse.

a childhood friend made amends to me once when he did the steps. i was surprised as i never thought he did anything wrong to me, but he felt he did.

readerbaby71

Stung, idealizing and having huge expectations about what his amends to you will be like is really setting yourself up for disappointment. I have a big problem with that. Not that we shouldn't expect certain things of people and have standards, but fantasizing and speculating will only do harm to ourselves, as it's almost certain that you'll be let down when the reality does not conform to your idea of how his amends "should" be.

I am not criticizing--believe me I know what it's like to do this. I have done it with MANY, MANY things in my life. It's a problem I've had since childhood. Maybe we have overactive imaginations!? As others have said, actions speak louder than words. Maybe try to focus on what he's doing to make amends instead of what he's saying.

oxoxoxo

PohsFriend

Stung - your self-awareness cracks me up sometimes because you sound like me.

I was realllllly wrapped around the axle when Poh was making amends to others but I never got my amends letter - still haven't - and I am not sure why that is. It made me furious.

But... to tell you the truth that might make me feel better for a day or two but there are some things an apology won't fix and that she can't make amends for. She can repeat it or not and what I really want, what makes amends to me is that she isn't repeating those things and she is staying well and getting better every day.

There's alcoholism and there is the person. If the person is a jerk without alcohol then alcoholism just takes the filter away and amplifies them. Poh has her flaws like anyone but she is fundamentally a loving, kind, caring person - alcohol makes her ******* crazy, volatile and irrational and selfish and depressed to the point where it was constant stress and drama. With the alcoholism under control she's quiet, kind, peaceful and she reduces my daily level of stress.

Rambling as usual but I hope something resonates here - it sounds like he is NOT a jerk without the alcohol and that you love him a great deal and resent the hell out of having your basically happy, normal life turned upside down by this and want that life back. I may be projecting big time but I think what I hear is "You can't give me back those X months of hell, just give me back the husband and father that me and the kids love and need and give us back our normal life". If that's what you really want and can talk yourself into not needing the 'amends' then his sobriety and future behavior may be all the amends he can make and all the amends you need.

I think what allowed me to let go of the need to be 'right' or make her apologize was my OWN selfish realization that anything that made her feel guilty or ashamed or embarrassed was just shoving her toward a bottle and I realized she felt plenty of that stuff. It's a bit ironic - you want them to acknowledge the pain and hurt they caused and understand it but you NEED them to forgive themselves and focus on the things that will prevent a repeat so ...at least in my twisted brain, the answer was to wipe the slate clean and let her know that I love her and forgive her and her 'debt' is wiped out. What I thought I wanted was amends, what I know I need is for her to just not do that again - without alcohol she's a phenomenal mother, a loving wife, a good friend and she's just so freaking adorable I can't be around her without being happy. I need her to do what she's doing and she's doing it so that had to be enough and now it is enough.

Hang in there, hope some of that made sense

Florence

Nope! He hasn't apologized, looked sideways at me, or farted in my direction since all this went down in flames four years ago. He's told me he's sorry when he was drunk, or looking at serious personal consequences, but that was about him feeling sorry for himself and not "amends," and he continued to relapse over and over again.

I think we codies place a lot of stock in amends. Amends aren't about us or repairing our egos. It's about the addict in recovery being able to look in the mirror every day and know s/he has the integrity to own his or her mistakes.

Amends fantasies remind me of engagement fantasy stereotypes. The girl who wants so badly to get married that she micromanages her guy into performing the correct kind of engagement performance and is inevitably disappointed when it doesn't come or doesn't adhere to her lavish expectations.

Yet sometimes we know it's ridiculous and want it anyway. I get it.

It was suggested to me here that we find ways to feel we have reached a point of closure or resolution or forgiveness on our own, and not continuously turn to the person that hurts us to be the one that heals us. This fantasy that our abuser can be reformed and help to heal our pain is a fundamentally codependent fantasy. People find recovery -- but it doesn't look like the fairy tale. Like you, Al-Anon was not for me, but through individual counseling I learned how to find closure on my own for a deep well of hurt feelings from my family of origin, from sexual assault, from failed relationships and friendships, and from my STBXAH, who was one of my great loves and who slipped away from me into alcoholism and mental illness before I realized what was wrong.

He hasn't made amends to me. I can't put a timeline or expectations on his amends. I just know that he's not capable of having a relationship with me now (maybe ever) and I'm done waiting. My marriage was on it's way to becoming a suicide pact. I had to disengage to protect myself and the kids from further harm.

Hammer

Let's see how this fits in your spreadsheet?

-----------------

Expectations = Resentments.

Big Expectations = Big Resentments.

No Expectations = No Resentments.

-----------

Resentments = Hurt for You.

Big Resentments = More Big Hurt for You.

No Resentments = Less Hurt for You.

--------------

Have you not Hurt Enough, yet?

=========

But all that is often easier said than done.

readerbaby71

I need to print this out and carry it in my pocket with me.

FireSprite

I did get that with my AF. While he had apologized, sincerely, many times during the time between getting sober & his early death it was his actions of living a fully sober lifestyle that became his TRUE amends. After his death we found that he had left us each (my sis, mom & self) a letter & they contained those big, Hollywood style amends (among other things). I don't necessarily even think he meant it that way, which made it more genuine to me.

With RAH I got a lot of emply apologies in the early days of recovery - by empty I mean that while I believe he was being sincere, I don't think you can apologize for what you don't fully understand without it coming off hollow. While I understand that it isn't about MY expectations of what his amends should be, his understanding mattered to me in the capacity of being able to move forward as a couple. If we were splitting I think I would have a different thought process about it, but I found that until he started to understand my real damage he always minimized it's impact & seemed to assume that I was dramatizing things to punish him. Um, no. That's how it really WAS, not just my spin on things.

I guess for me it's more about the understanding than the actual amends. At more than 2 yrs into the program, he's really only just starting the official stepwork so maybe that will come at a later date, or not. I'll get much more out of his actions than his words in either case.

Hammer

Actually had to have that "taught" to me -- at about that level -- by a retired First Grade Teacher at Alanon.

Best school I have ever been to.

Stung

Yes, I agree. The biggest testament of his wrongdoings and the greatest show of apology would be to do a complete 180 and be the person that he and I want him to be, the person that I deserve and married. However, (and this is going to sound competitive but I really don't mean it to be) I think my husband probably was more hurtful to me than Poh was to you simply because the timing of my husband's alcoholism was really, really poor. I do need some kind of sincere acceptance (maybe apology is the wrong word?) of his actions and the effect that his actions had on our family. The more grandiose, the better…because that's how I roll.

I agree with this too. I'm not looking to feel better about myself or heal myself. I already feel really good about myself and I feel like my husband hit the jackpot big time when I agreed to marry him. I'm optimistic that things will improve because I can will them to be better because I'm a tenacious mofo. What is the Abraham Lincoln quote that is always floating around here? Today will only be as good as I determine it to be? If I look at my obstacles KNOWING that I'm going to hurdle them it is much more likely that I will do so. If I look at my obstacles and determine that I'll never surpass them, then I'm already defeated before I've cross the start line. His recovery isn't my problem, it's his. I've got that down pat. The fact still remains that I will have to have a relationship with this dude for at least the next 17 1/2 years because we have babies together. The happiest road is the one that I want to take, that also happens to be the road with the greatest amount of difficulty and work…for BOTH of us. AH repeats ad nauseam that he wants to "spend the rest of his life" showing me he's a good man and he's starting to put his money where his mouth is. I'm future tripping to the good part.

BINGO!! That's exactly what I wanted to say but you actually did a good job of articulating it. Thank you!! I want a big heartfelt, sincere, genuine, "I now understand the full impact of my actions" apology because that to me will go hand in hand with what Poh said. That he can even MAKE an apology like that will mean that he's well on his way to being the person that I can accept because it will mean that he's accepted the weight of his actions not to the degree that he feels sorry for the impact that his actions have had on him, but because he's emotionally healthy enough to understand the impact that his actions have had on our family. That, in my opinion, is very worthy of a good apology.