Riverbird

My AA sponsor is trying to get me to go to ACA meetings with her. She loves them, but she's also been sober for 16 years so I feel like she's got a much more stable base to work from than I do. I've been sober for 2 years, and there's definite ACA issues that make sobriety a HUGE struggle for me. I have a lot of ugly messages in my head from my parents about how I'm broken and worthless and all that...plus add in PTSD and it makes sober life quite a challenge sometimes. This has been the on-going debate in one way or another since I first got sober. When I first came in I was angry at anyone suggesting I should stop drinking, because it was the only way I knew to cope with the painful memories of my past. I wanted to deal with the past traumas before I even considered sobriety. But I'd tried repeatedly and had gotten nowhere...and was basically told that I wouldn't be able to make any real progress until I got sober and quit trying to numb everything. So I got sober, and once I got through the really really rough first few months, I was surprised at how much better I felt. Suddenly I had this amazing life that I never could've dreamed of simply by getting my head clear. Just by allowing myself the ability to focus and think through my flashbacks, and learning new techniques to deal with them rather than running in fear and trying to numb or escape them...a lot of them went away.

My PTSD symptoms have lessened HUGELY in the last 2 years. They're still there but they're very manageable. Now I just have "quirks" like checking that the door is locked multiple times before I go to bed...rather than fears to the level of not being able to be in a crowded room, not able to sit anywhere but with my back up to a corner so I could see everything, spending days not able to leave my apartment, etc. But I now feel sort of "stuck" in my recovery. Things aren't bad, but they aren't necessarily good either. I'm struggling hugely with relationships...getting overly clingy or overly manipulative...I'm having super strong emotions that don't necessarily go along with what's happening in my life...I'm freaking out over small things, etc. These are all things that fit in really well with ACA, and I'm amazed at how much all that relates to me. It feels just like going in to AA meetings for my first time...it feels like everyone is telling my story and it's amazing to hear others talk about dealing with the same stuff. But the meetings absolutely scare the **** out of me and make me feel sick. I don't really know why..maybe it's just a hits too close to home thing. Also it's easier to admit that I'm an alcoholic than to admit the f**ed up family life I come from.

My sponsor took me to one ACA meeting that I hated because it was huge and more and more people kept coming in. It just felt like a really unsafe place to be discussing that kind of stuff. She just recently started an ACA meeting at the AA club we go to. I went to one of the first ones, which was great because it was a smaller group and almost all people I knew from AA. But now that meeting has gotten really popular so it's become quite a crowd (maybe 10 people now instead of the original 5) and there seems to be new people I don't know coming every week. I realize if I went regularly I'd get to know them, but the one time I tried with the bigger group I found myself shaking and getting nauseous to the point that I eventually had to leave. It seems like if I'm having this much of an adverse physical reaction to something it's either really the wrong thing for me, or just what I need to get through whatever it is that's blocking me. I know I have a major subconscious block about talking about anything related to the past because my parents trained me well to never talk about that and to just smile and pretend everything is hunky dory. So maybe that's the reason for the reaction but I don't know. I've had a similar reaction when I've tried therapy (which I'm considering going back to) and therapy groups (which I wanted to go back to but found out the woman running the one I liked is not someone I can work with anymore...long story). I went to a therapy group that I enjoyed for a while...so maybe I could find something like that that could work for me, especially since that would be a fixed group rather than people coming and going (which is a big part of what scares me). I do like having the 12 steps as a basis but maybe it doesn't necessarily have to be that.

Sorry for rambling...I guess I just needed to get that out more than ask a question! lol

Kialua

Hi, welcome. I understand not talking about the family but it might be what saves you. Have you read much around here? We have a lot of material in the stickies above that will probably resonate with you, and help making you comfortable to be able to talk about your family of origin. Read through our blogs too, the link is located under our name to the left of each post.

Maybe it would be easier to post anonymously here first until you are used to the feelings it brings up. Therapy would be good but nothing compares to talking to a kindred spirit here. It has helped me so much, even after decades of growing up. Are you still at home? adult or teen? which parent drank?

Riverbird

Thank you for the welcome. I've been reading a bit, though taking it in pieces so it's not too overwhelming. Mostly I was reading the AA board and then saw this one. I didn't realize there were blogs too. Is there a way to link my blog on to here? (I'm guessing not, since it looks like it's its own separate thing).

Both my parents drank and used. My dad was more the loud mean one, and my mom more the absent/oblivious one, but she could be mean too. I haven't seen either one of them in over 10 years. They abandoned me when I was 16 and I have no real desire to forge any kind of relationship now.

Kialua

I don't think you can link your blog here. But you can start your own here if you like.

Yes it can get a bit overwhelming to read everything here, so take your time because it's worth it. My Dad was the loud mean one too, my Mom the willing accomplish. I tried to leave home at 16 but my brothers talked me out of, not knowing I was still being abused, and of course it never crossed my mind to tell. They feel terrible about it now.

What did you do by yourself at 16? Did you get to finish school? I had an apartment and job lined up.

tromboneliness

Wow -- where is it? I'd love to find an ACA meeting that only had 10 people; the two we have here tend to draw at least 25-30.

That said, the influx of new people can be a problem -- in fact, that's why I don't often go to the meetings here. We have an AA evangelist who seems to feel the "attraction, not promotion" tradition does not apply to him. He's always inviting guys from AA to go to our ACA meeting. Mind you, they need ACA -- for a lot of the reasons you describe. I'm not that knowledgeable on AA, but I gather AA frowns on talking about adult-child and family-of-origin issues too much, because it's considered "avoiding responsibility" and "blaming others." Well, they're entitled to think that if they want. But the result is that AA does not deal with family issues adequately. So you get these AA guys who are a TOTAL mess because although they're off booze, they're still a wreck because of all the things that happened when they were growing up. The evangelist says, "Hey, why don't you come to the ACA meeting on Friday nights?" They do -- because they need it -- and they show up... and start DUMPING ALL THEIR FAMILY/ABUSE STUFF all over the place, all at once, with no concept of how much it's TRIGGERING us non-alcoholics who come to ACA from the Al-Anon side. They're either angry like a bull in a china shop, or they're a mass of quivering jello, telling us about how they were molested as children, and so on and so forth. Result: An ACA meeting that does not feel safe.

I think AA needs to look in the mirror and start addressing some family/adult-child issues in their own program. Our evangelist needs to start a new ACA meeting, specifically intended for AA members who need more work on their family of origin issues.

T

Riverbird

Yes I finished school. That was very important to me and the one constant I always had. Otherwise it was pretty ugly to be honest. I lived in a lot of different places, including some time on the streets and with some really not safe people. I didn't have a job so I made money where I could doing whatever I could find. I guess in hindsight I basically ended up trading one kind of abuse for another. Can't say that I regret it though. I eventually ended up in a foster home which helped me get on my feet enough to get in to college and become a more or less functional adult.

Riverbird

Wait...what? Ya lost me.

The first ACA meeting I went to was about 25 people and way too overwhelming for me. That's why I was excited about this one because it was brand new and therefore small. It's clearly a need though and I'm glad it's helping people but honestly sad to see it growing.

As for the rest of your post, I'm not sure what to say because I'm not sure what your point is. I've never been told not to talk about family stuff in AA, but the focus of an AA meeting is alcoholism, since that's the common thread we all share. I wouldn't talk about drugs or eating disorders or mental illness or anything else there either, because it's not what AA is for...even if I know others in the room share that experience. I can mention it if it relates to what I'm sharing, but it's not what the meeting is for.

I don't understand why it would be more triggering for someone who is also in AA to share at an ACA meeting. I also don't understand why you're upset that someone is inviting people to an ACA meeting (or any other meeting). That's what attraction is all about. If no one ever said, "Hey you should come to this meeting with me," none of these programs would exist.

I'm really trying to understand why you're upset, and I've read your post multiple times and still don't get it. It says right in the ACA lit that some of us become alcoholics ourselves, some marry them, etc. It shouldn't be a dividing line in ACA whether you're also in AA or not. At least not based on my understanding. Really it shouldn't even be known within the confines of a meeting what other meetings a person attends...should it? I've only been to a few ACA meetings but whether or not I go to AA has never been a topic that comes up. (Of course I know about half the folks at the meeting from AA, so it's kind of known...but anyway...). Are people not supposed to share about abuse? I don't want to be triggering to people if/when I do go.

It sounds like your ACA meetings are really meeting a need for people, and that's awesome. No one in AA who is really working the program would claim that it's supposed to be the be all end all for working out issues. It says right in the book that we seek outside help when needed. I'm sorry ACA isn't working out for you. Maybe you could start a new meeting to give people some more options and maybe find a smaller crowd?

DesertEyes

Out here in my part of the world ACA meetings are all very different.

Some of the meetings are very small, maybe half a dozen people at most. The same peeps have been to the same meet for 5 or 6 years now. They have read through the whole Red Book several times, have shared the same stuff, have told the same stories, and at this point it's just half a dozen friends hanging out. They have all grown and healed and really have nothing more to say.

Another meet is about 20 peeps, but some of them have only been going a couple years and the other 15 members are newbies from the AA meeting next door. The newbies come in for a few weeks, maybe a month, complain and whine about their parents, and never come back. It's a "revolving door" of short-timers that never stay long enough to understand step 1.

Yet another meet is held downtown. There's two peeps who have a few years in ACA and the other dozen are homeless folks who come over from the library and enjoy the use of the A/C and the bathrooms.

The biggest challenge we have in the ACA community is that people get _well_. They start a new meeting, get a dozen peeps who _really_ understand what they want, they become hugely active and a powerful force in the community, and then after 4 or 5 years they get _well_.

Once they are well they start skiping meetings, they get married ( or divorced ) they have kids, they get a new job, and go off to live a happy, healthy and "normal" life. And they stop coming to meetings.

It's actually a good thing. It shows that ACA works, and works well.

Right now there are _two_ women who have been in ACA for the last 10 years. They are the ones that got the whole program started in this town, kicked off _all_ the meetings, run the website, make the flyers, got Claudia Black to come give a lecture, etc. etc. Once a year we all get together over the holidays and Pizza and vent our frustrations at how the meetings have deteriorated.

Anybody we talk to all over the world has the same story. And not just ACA, it happens to OA, ISA, SAA, etc. etc.

So maybe that is just the natural progression of this kind of "peer support" approach. Maybe we just need to start over every 5 - 7 years. Let all the public meetings drift off like leaves in the fall. Wait a year, or two, then start a couple of closed, private meetings, and grow the whole "community" from scratch all over again.

Yes, it sounds defeatist. After 45 years watching ACA go thru the exact same cycle, time after time, over and over again, maybe that is the "natural" progression that is built into the system. People get well and move on, instead of fighting against that cycle we should "go with flow" and "embrace" it.

So when you hear solid, wise and experienced ACA's like tromboneliness mourn the loss of their once lovely meeting, that is why. ACA meetings have a "life cycle" and it can be very painful to watch them wither.

Mike

Kialua

Let me share my viewpoint. It might depend on what they share. It is hard for the abused, ACOA, to listen to an abuser, AA, and engage in conversations. Even if they are sorry. My Dad was always sorry the next day after he beat me, but it never stopped him from doing it again the next time he was drunk. It takes a lot of healing to get to that place of forgiving and caring. A lot. Even after being healed for many years it can still trigger flashbacks unexpectedly to hear such stories. I wish it didn't, but that's just how it is. It is farther apart, and less frequent but one never knows what will exactly trigger.

I'm glad some of the AA people want to explore their ACOA and wish them the best.

tromboneliness

It's complicated -- but a lot of non-alcoholic Al-Anons find angry alcoholics... scary. Triggering. Threatening reminders of what they grew up with. Particularly when they're people with some recovery in AA but who have done nothing except whatever they have to do to get off booze. Obviously, that's the first priority for alcoholics. But they come barging into an ACA meeting and think, great, now I can finally spill my guts about all this stuff that's killing me and made me drink myself to death that AA refuses to let me talk about because it's "blaming someone else for my drinking." See where I'm going with this? If I'm not an alcoholic, I get uncomfortable when a bunch of alcoholics start coming to my meeting -- and generally feeling that they have carte blanche to talk about how they were molested by their parents, locked in the basement, sent to bed with no dinner, beaten when they got a bad report card, etc., etc., etc. The new arrivals from AA -- at least at the two ACA meetings in my city -- tend to just start right in, dumping all this stuff out for us to get triggered by -- before they go to a few meetings, read some of the red book, and get an idea of how it's supposed to work. That makes the meeting feel unsafe -- and there is no way a bunch of shrinking-violet Al-Anons are going to set these guys straight and ask them not to be bulls in the china shop.

Sure, these AA's need ACA, or some means of discussing adult-child issues. It would help, though, if AA would get out of its straitjacket and recognize that these issues are important and are not just "blaming someone else."

How 'bout an AA meeting for adult children? Would Bill W. strike them down with a lightning bolt if they tried that?

T

Riverbird

I'm confused. I'm really trying to understand this and don't mean to be rude. Do you mean it's triggering to listen to any alcoholic? I understand what you're saying about healing and learning to forgive. I've had to do that with my parents. I struggle in AA meetings sometimes when I hear people speak who remind me of my parents. But I'm not an abuser. I've done stupid stuff while drunk, but nothing like my parents did. But I would think that ACA would be just like AA...you focus on what you have in common. So in ACA it's the shared results of a dysfunctional childhood, right?

Maybe it depends on the ACA meeting. In the ones I've been to no one talked about their own drinking at all. One woman mentioned it as part of a story of choosing unhealthy relationships, and a couple of people made reference to working the steps in AA (but they didn't even say AA...they just said "another fellowship" but I knew them from AA meetings...).

Anyway I'm sorry if I've started something negative here by asking about this. That definitely wasn't my intent.

Riverbird

Thank you for explaining further. Just curious, do non-AA people also come in to ACA meetings angry, talking about that stuff, diving in before reading the book and observing some meetings, etc. or is it really just AA's? That seems like it would be new people in general. Also, have you been to any AA meetings? As I said before I've never had an AA group refuse to let me talk about my past or said I'm doing too much blaming other people (except for those times when I was doing too much blaming other people). I personally am grateful for the people in AA that helped me see beyond blaming my parents for my issues. In the meetings I go to we acknowledge the painful crap that's happened, but we don't let people get away with being stuck in victimhood, because that's not healthy for anyone. Prior to AA people offered "help" by telling me "Oh it's ok, you're hurt, don't worry if you can't do _____." People in AA told me, "You're hurt, that sucks, now get off your ass and figure out what you can do to better yourself." I was really taken aback by it at first, but I realized that that was the first time someone had actually believed in me, and believed that I could amount to more than what I was at the time. It was that push that allowed me to find the freedom I have today. Yes I obviously still have work to do (hence my getting sick at the mere thought of walking into an ACA meeting and being honest about my past) but I'm not a raging bull in the china shop or anything like that. I've forgiven my parents, and have learned to cope with a lot of ptsd symptoms. It's now the more nagging issues that get to me, like struggling with relationships, worrying about people abandoning me, etc. That's why my sponsor thinks ACA would be good for me with where I'm at in my recovery now. But based on what I'm reading here maybe it's not a good idea. I'm not real well practiced at talking about my past, so there's a lot of emotion still connected with it.

I'm sure these meetings, both AA and ACA vary regionally (hence my curiosity of how much direct experience you have with AA meetings), so it may be different here, but I definitely don't want to risk hurting anyone.

tromboneliness

I highly recommend the ACA Workbook -- the yellow spiral-bound book. It has writing exercises that take you through the 12 steps from an ACA perspective. It's VERY intense, so don't try it at home -- well, try it at home, but not without a sponsor!

As for avoiding triggering us hyper-sensitive Al-Anon types, I'd say just go to a few meetings and don't say much, until you get a sense of the dynamics of that particular meeting. When you share, keep it on-topic, keep the F-bombs to a minimum, and generally pay attention to how people are reacting -- if you do that, you should be fine.

What I'm getting at, with my meetings (and yes, it is the AA's who barge in and start blubbering about how they were molested, at their first meeting before they have any idea what's going on), is that AA's tend to be self-absorbed -- when they were drinking, it was all about them, and now that they're not drinking, it's still often all about them. That leads to some of the factors that make the two ACA meetings in my city less than useful. This is not universally true -- my sponsor is an AA, and he's 10 times as good as any therapist, at understanding the issues and helping me sort them out -- but it would help if the newbies would sit down and shut up for a couple of meetings until they have a sense of the atmosphere.

T

CallMeButch

RiverBird, I'm not sure what exactly to say in the way of comforting words or advice, only to say that I can, on some level, relate to you. I was raised in an alcoholic home and when I was 19 experienced an extremely traumatic physical assault that left me with PTSD for years. Fast forward 10 years later and I've managed to get over most of those symptoms but I still catch myself being much more mindful of the world I live in. Positive change and psychology comes with time, having a steady support system (and in my case a great therapist), and learning which discomfort zones to negotiate limits for growth. Sometimes its a matter of sheer will in making myself leave the house. Most other days I know that world is a generally safe place and most people are good and mean well. Find ways to be around others to get the support you need without compromising your sense of safety. Whether that means being the first to a meeting you know will be crowded to stake your seat against a wall and near an exit, or shopping around for the smallest meetings possible or one-one-one sessions with members from the program. I truly wish you the best.