petmagnet

I come and go on this forum and appreciate all the feed back so many of you faithfully give. So, I am looking for your take on this "new" development. Some of you may or may not remember me, but a brief synopsis of my situation is that I live with what I thought was a functional AH. He went thru a month long rehab (in-patient, ordered by someone else) only to return home and begin drinking 4 days later and hasn't looked back. I- in the meantime, have basically detached. I hadn't really given him, his bar hopping, or his situation much thought since he was unwilling to change it. Until recently...

"AH" got a 2nd DUI (in our driveway in front of all he neighbors...OH JOY)! and in our state the penalties for a 2nd are pretty stiff. He was called in by 2 eyewitnesses from the interstate. I stood there and watched from my house- as I am sure did everyone else...and said "no surprise" to the officer who came to my door as they took him to jail for blowing a .225.

"AH" since this latest mess, is not drinking. He has not had a drink for 10 days. This is a guy who couldn't seem to go past 3 days max without another binge. Now he goes 10 days without treatment, or AA meetings, or counseling?? What gives there? If he wants to stop he obviously can, at least for longer periods than he was telling me he could. All this is telling me is that if he wants it- he can do it, and that it's attainable- if he so chooses. It's telling me that NOTHING was worth quitting for until the threat of jail time came up for him because HE sees that as really unbearable. It makes me sick. I'm really ticked off. I'm sure he will probably get thru this minimally with the help of his expensive attny, and his ego will blossom even more, and he will return to his selfish ways until he's busted on something again. I expect nothing less of him really. However, I am left questioning if this is really a personality disease for him more than a true addiction. I don't know how it could be an addiction if he can turn away so easily when HE wants to. I need some feedback here, any recovered alcoholics?? I do not understand this. I'm very frustrated. I feel like I have just been turning my backon whats really a rebellious, spoiled 40 something teenager who uses the concept of addiction as an excuse to be a party boy cuz he just didn't feel like being home with the wife and kids, and I bought it, by letting him "walk his path". A path that he obviously really digs (even though he says he hates it) until he's facing jail. I am really beginning to think that's what I am dealing with rather than with a true alcoholic. Yes, he drinks way too much several times a week, but he certainly seems to be able to control it by quitting cold turkey no-less when he wants. How can he turn it on and off so easily if it's an addiction that he supposedly had to feed every other day by getting drunk at the bars? I feel like a moron. Thoughts please...

hopeful4

Fear can be quite a motivator. I am pretty sure that he is scared of what will happen to him. That is just how my AH is. It never lasts for very long though in our house. My AH is a binge drinker. In counseling a month or so ago he admitted sometimes he drinks just because he is bored. That made me really think about this. Not because of some big reason that I am always looking for, or because it's a sickness. Because he is bored. Yes, he is a 38 year old spoiled brat. However, he will not be my spoiled brat too much longer, time for change.

I am sorry you are dealing with this.

lillamy

Question for you:

Does it matter to you whether he is an alcoholic or whether he chooses to drink to excess?
Are you looking for permission to leave him?
Would it be easier for you to give yourself that permission if you could be convinced that he is not indeed suffering from a disease but choosing this path?

ALittleBitCrazy

My AH was like this too - got a DWI, with a stiff penalty, and managed to stay sober for all of the 7 months that were required, went to treatment, etc. The first day he could drink, he did. He is sober now, has been for 3 months. He goes to meetings sometimes and once came home and told me that A's find enforced sobriety to be different from self-imposed sobriety. Apparently, when forced to stop by an outside force, he can; the consequences being so high. But for his family - nothing, until I said I was leaving.

I don't know that I have anything helpful to say, just to say - you're not alone on this. I feel like it happens quite a bit. It's where quitting for "the right reason" comes into play, I guess?

BoxinRotz

When they say, It won't happen to ME!!! and it does, it forces them to take a deeper look at themselves and STOP THE MADDNESS!

Sometimes, it's for good but most of the time, it's just for a little while.

Stung

I really like all of Amy's questions!

Also, I feel similarly about my husband…specifically the anger part. But I've read on here that narcism and feeling quasi invisible - aka like a teenager that doesn't understand the ramifications of their actions until push comes to shove - are symptoms of alcoholism. My husband has always acted somewhat like a teenager (we've been together since I was 18) but since he's become an alcoholic it has been unbearable.

My husband went through a phase in September where there were real threats to his lifestyle and he was sober for two weeks. It was a really great two weeks having my husband be sober again…but it was ONLY two weeks and then he had another excuse to drink until another threat came along.

If your husband is serious about his sobriety then time will be the true test.

Pelican

Well, he did a month of sobriety while in rehab.
He has 10 days now.

An alcoholic can stay sober when they need to keep the monkey off their back, so to speak. Months of sobriety are possible when the alcoholic know it's temporary. They can reward themselves later, with Alcohol.

PohsFriend

I think one thing that has helped me to understand, to the extent that I can, is that I go to a lot of open speaker meetings and listen to a lot of AA folks with lots of years. Hearing them validate and repeat things I have heard my wife say helped me get my head around it.

There is dry and there is sober. It took me a while to wrap my head around AA. There's a lady I admire tremendously who has like 25 years in recovery and it used to bug me to hear someone who's been sober longer than they were drunk by a LOT say they are 'in recovery'. I thought "Dude, 20 years, signal touchdown, spike the ball and go home - you are cured".

I heard it from her first and it resonated with my wife. One of my own cliches since AA doesn't have plenty and all is... "Alcoholics don't drink to drown out all the joy and serenity in their heart".

That lady explained that AA doesn't keep her from drinking, it keeps her sane. Someone working steps 2-12 is going to be pretty self aware and they are going to stay pretty level because they are processing stuff and letting go of it rather than letting stress and anxiety build to the point where they need something else to take the edge off.

Pet - I SOOOOOOoooooooo understand and can empathize with what you are saying and there is simple and there is easy. Hey guys, newsflash - there is a very simple solution to addiction, just don't consume the addictive substance, hulllllllooooooo! If only simple and easy were the same thing. 99% of the crap that derails us in life is simple, simple simple.

Example: Starting tomorrow morning, eat a balanced diet with no junk food, spend one hour in the morning and one in the evening walking for exercise. Don't take drugs. Work as hard as you can at your job 9-5 and remember to put the max in your 401K, pay all your bills on time, never buy things on credit and don't smoke, curse or think impure thoughts... see? Easy. How many of those simple things did you do today? How's tomorrow looking? ...but it's all incredibly simple right?

Simple ain't easy.

I watched my wife go a few weeks or months dry - not sober - before starting again and this was after nearly dying from quitting cold turkey. I was wrapped around the axle on this one. I asked her very politely how it was possible that after 9 months sober and in AA she could choose to take a drink while pregnant. Of course I articulated it a little differently as I was in the frame of mind I 'feel' from Pet right now so it came out more like "WHAT THE &*%^$ COULD YOU CONCEIVABLY HAVE BEEN THINKING!!! ARE YOU %&^*$( OUT OF %&^&*$ MIND?". Yeah so... I have worked on that a bit.

After 16 months of sobriety and a completely fine and healthy one year old I can't tell you a damned thing about your beloved alcoholic but I can tell you with complete certainty that she did not choose to do that on a conscious level. She doesn't BS me about alcohol and hasn't in a very long time and my beloved bride has many wonderful gifts - the ability to ******** is simply not there, if she played poker her nickname would be "ATM". She really wants to explain what happened that day and she describes every minute detail but for the life of her she can't explain what happened and she had a drink - did not get drunk - this wasn't a blackout. She has NO idea and it scares the hell out of her but she's thankful for it today and so am I. We both figured we needed a plan for when the baby came because duh, we were safe until that time. She's a lot safer today and I know that because she is not confident, she is not sure and she is scared, terrified because it is not so easy to prevent the recurrence of something if you aren't sure how it possibly could have happened.

Cunning

Baffling

Sucks.

Pet - I think I have been angrier with her than you seem to be with him right now and maybe it helps maybe it doesn't but 'white knuckling' out of fear or shock happens and controlling it for a while happens and that damned voice whispers 'one drink is no big deal' at the worst times.

I can think of many times when my wife was not honest about drinking before she got well and I don't know what alcoholism feels like but I know what remorse and horror and self loathing look like and I don't think I could ever 'blame' her or be angry with her for her drinking again. I thought the first sip was the line - after that forget about control but right up until that first sip a sober brain is driving the bus so it's just a matter of not having that first sip.

....simple.

FeelingGreat

Pet, speaking as an alcoholic, you can go for years trying to stop and then something clicks. This is not to minimise your anger, as you have correctly deduced that his new motivation is all about himself.

Hopeworks

Understanding an A and navigating the waters around them is always clearer than mud.

In my experience with my last A who is now recovered he used to claim that drinking was like breathing and he simply couldn't live without it just like he couldn't stop breathing. That was a huge red flag ; but didn't slow me down a bit.

Rehabs, detoxes, IP programs, Out patient programs, Arrests, hospital beds and dire prognosis's of death, threatening leaving him, losing his children would produce periods of abstinence but he always drank again with more horrific results.

Finally, I got better. Ended the insanity. Packed his stuff and sent him down the road and he ended up on the streets of Vegas. He continued to drink, get arrested, get homeless... just a mess.

And then... after two years he woke up and looked around and quit. Like scales came off his eyes he decided he didn't like Las Vegas anymore, he didn't want to be sick, full of anxiety and drunk 24/7.

Now...he always needed hospital detoxes and inpatient. Convulsions were not uncommon and he was a trembling, anxiety ridden mess when he tried to quit before.

But... all alone in the world without a judges gavel or jail cell or screaming woman in his ear dragging him to detox he quit. Just like that. Within weeks he had a job and in 4 months he now has a nice home and a small business.

Impossible I would have thought. He gives all of the credit to God and it was the psychic change he had at the time he broke up for real with alcohol. Always before it had been going through the motions... saying the words expected of family, courts, rehab counselors etc.

When an A has a psychic change things happen in the brain... we are hardwired for spiritual action and deeply held convictions. AA calls it "whatever it takes" and the A has to want it with all of their heart, soul and their very next breath.

For the A "putting on an act" the bottles behind the bar still shimmer and sparkle and call to them like a siren on the sea and the inner struggle and cravings gnaw at them... but for the A in authentic recovery who has had an actual psychic change and is throwing gas on THAT fire it is a new life and a way of dealing with life. The steps of AA are the design of the program to find that psychic change that produces a happy, joyous and alcohol free life for the A.

there are other ways but for my XA it was the roots and program of AA and his faith in God that produced this most hopeful time in his life.

Fear of jail can bring abstinence but often doesn't bring a psychic change or personality change for the A...it doesn't deal with the WHY of drinking which is just below the tip of the iceberg of the alcohol itself.

They have to find their own way out and they have to want OUT for themselves and not for us or for others or just doesn't stick... at least that it was I have experienced.

Hope that helps...

atalose

Sounds like you are struggling to figure out if he's a true alcoholic or is his drinking a habit- a choice he makes.

My thinking is this, anyone who has adverse affects in their lives because of their habits, DUI's, ordered to rehab, etc.....I believe their habit is an addiction. And just because he has now stopped for 10 days doesn't mean he really has the control over it and can stay stopped, another sign of addiction. He felt the need to drink after 30 days and today he is only on day 10.......more will be reveled just give it time.

I think it's hard for us to grasp that they are not drinking at us or because of us or to us.......and even though we also suffer consequences due to their actions THEIR drinking has very little to do with us.

trudgingagain

As an alcoholic, I can tell you that in my experience, it was up to ME to WANT to quit. I have done 8 years, then 3, then 4 years of sobriety in AA. Spiritual solution? I am not sure....relapsed each time, thinking I could drink like a "normal" person. About 3 months ago, I just woke up and said to myself, "Enough is enough"...and quit. I have had more sobriety than not in the last 20 years...and yes, I do have AA as a foundation...but...this time I did it for ME. No legal issues, no really bad consequences of drinking...just didn't work for me anymore. Personally, I see it as a choice these days.

petmagnet

Does it matter? I guess it does matter to me in the sense that if alcoholism is a disease then he'd have no choice in the matter, then like a spouse that would have diabetes or cancer I would stay on and see it through. I am however questioning the whole disease theory a lot lately, and I know I am going to take some flack for this but, Alcoholism as a disease doesn't fit the diabetes or cancer comparison that I have heard so many times. Those diseases are auto-immune or DNA mutation. There is no external catalyst that causes it nor can it be can shut it off simply by a choice not to consume a substance. So the matter of it boiling down to being a choice matters quite a bit simply on principal for me. I am just trying to determine what my final personal belief will be on the matter based on others experiences.

Looking for permission? Not permission so much, just trying to be sure as I can be that this isn't something beyond HIS control. If it's within his control as it seems to be, when convenient, and I am slowly coming to the conclusion that it is controllable when need be for him, then I have all the reason I need to be done with his selfish habits and desires.

Would it be easier to leave if it were not a disease and a choice of path? Yes. Very much so. I am trying to sort it all out- the disease or choice thing, and I am not happy with the conclusions I am being drawn toward. But, I will probably have to face the inevitable.

Thanks for your questions. They made me think even more.

Danae

I guess most diseases include some things which aren't a choice (DNA inherited from parents, early environment) and some which are (eating habits, smoking, exercise). Although even those are gray areas as smoking and eating may be addictions as well as choices.

I guess my point is that nothing is that clear cut.

If he had diabetes but continued to eat badly and not try to follow doctor's recommendations, would you need to support him through that? Heart disease which was partly due to his own neglect of his health? Even if you consider alcoholism a disease, he can decide to take action when/if he wants to be sober more than he wants to drink.

Often when people post about this they are trying to find their way through this minefield---when the bottom line is they aren't happy and want to leave, and don't want to feel like a bad or unsupportive person.

Sorry you are facing this.

AnvilheadII

petmagnet...you could see it as a disease of choice. addicts have moments...moments of regret, of being sick, of facing jail time, loss of job, family,health.....and in the sometimes rare sober breath, a decision is made....keep on going, or do something, ANYTHING to stop. for many, most, for a long time, they choose the easier, softer way....not because it's EASIER or SOFTER, but quitting for good seems like climbing Everest barefoot.

as others have said, addiction becomes like breathing. it's a mental obsession coupled with a physical compulsion. but recovery IS possible. addicts get clean and sober all the time, and go on to live happy productive lives.

try not to overthink this! this is YOUR life....

petmagnet

Well, you certainly have that right, I am so sick of turning my back or feeling like I am being backed into a corner because I feel I need to support someone because of a disease that seems very much under their control if they want it to be. But yet being told by rehab programs and other media/information that it's really not in their control. It is a minefield and very mentally & emotionally confusing to say the least.

AH had his meeting with his Attny and didn't hear what he wanted, he will probably have jail time because his BAC was so high. So what does he do? He goes out and has a few drinks in response to his negative news. Amazing how quickly the attitude changed then. He came home early and wasn't wasted, but I could see he'd been drinking. It's so easy to see it on him now even after just 3 beers. So much for being humbled and broken. He was still willing to drink. He did go to his SA counselor the next day, and filled out paper work to start going again to some kind of rehab program, but no plan is set yet. However, after his little pity party, I just don't see it working for him. He is just too self absorbed and too arrogant to take his lumps and deal with anything that may be "TOO-HARD". Poor thing right??? Never stops to connect or care that it's his defiant & complacent attitude that has gotten him here. BLAH!!!

I think I have finally drawn my line in the sand though. If he goes thru all this with this DUI and learns nothing or doesn't have the "psychic" epiphany some of you have spoken of- I believe I will be done. If this doesn't get thru to him I don't believe anything ever will. Maybe deaths doorstep?? Who knows?? I just don't think I want to go down with him. I am starting to believe it would be better to cut my losses and get out before we are sued for his stupidity or addiction (whatever it is)- going to yet another level. He's been so lucky for so long, I really believe the devil may be starting to collect his dues. I just have a really bad feeling about things lately deep down.

Thanks everyone for your responses. I appreciate your feedback. I know everyone's journey is their own, but it helps to hear another's perspective.

Danae

One other thought:

Right now you seem to have a black/white version of what you should do---if he has a choice in the matter of drinking, and he is making a choice not to get better, you can leave, but if he has no choice you should stay and "support" him.

What if, either way, your staying wasn't necessarily the best for him, isn't really support at all? What if he had his best shot at getting sober on his own, facing his own issues and not being able to deflect blame onto you?

I'm not saying that's the case, but to assume that your staying is his best shot at getting sober may be giving yourself too much credit as well as giving yourself responsibility that doesn't lie with you.

I'm sure others can explain better than I can, especially those who've made these decisions themselves.

JustAGirl1971

I think you explained it really well. I think it's true for my marriage. Together, we're drowning. Apart, we each have a chance for recovery and hopefully, a happier, better life. Even if only one of us takes that chance (me), it's still one less drowned person and one more functional parent for our children.

JustAGirl1971

Petmagnet, there are other diseases that involve some level of choice. My father was diagnosed with Type II diabetes several years ago after his A1C levels kept increasing (& leveled out too high.) He was prescribed metformin (oral med) and took it for a few years. After some research, he chose to go gluten free. Almost immediately, his blood sugar levels were consistently lower. He went off metformin and now has normal blood sugars and normal A1Cs with no medication. When he deviates from his diet, his blood sugars spike and then plummet. He has a choice: He can eat what he wants and take medicine to control his diabetes or he can follow his diet/exercise plan and not take medication. I think of alcoholism as similar. It's a disease of choice. Yes, there was some level of choice initially, and yes, there is some level of choice now but there is a certain component that does not involve choice.

There are other diseases with a genetic predisposition that do not involve choice but do seem to require an environmental "switch" if you will, that will trigger an active manifestation of the disease. Schizophrenia is a possible example. Research shows that children of schizophrenics have a much higher rate of developing schizophrenia than children of non-schizophrenics; however, not all children of schizophrenics become schizophrenic. A history of dysfunction or abuse in childhood, marijuana use during adolescence/young adult hood, etc, each have a high correlation with the development of schizophrenia in those individuals with a genetic predisposition for schizophrenia. In fact, significant marijuana use has a really high correlation with the development of schizophrenia. No, marijuana doesn't cause the schizophrenia, but it may possibly flip the switch and "turn" on the gene.

petmagnet

Fortunately, I am way past the point of ever thinking I- personally could do something to illicit a change within him whether or not I stay or go, support or not. I know I have absolutely nothing to do with his sobriety. My personal battle has more to do with my principal based on the whole disease thing. Even with it being a disease, I know I cannot do anything to change it. Alanon 101. I'm just battling with my own head about the whole disease thing and choices that are made or not made. Your right about the responsibility thing, I have a terrible time not feeling responsible to be there for my family. It's not out of wanting credit though- it's more a "duty" thing. I'm trying to get over that though too.