firebolt

An answer in another thread about us developing codie habits from childhood circumstances just got me thinking.

Am I SO codie, that I can't see where it started? I have a great family. No alcohol issues around me (that I know of) until 13 years ago - when I met the person that eventually became my boss. We have some food addiction in the family, and a couple cigarette smokers, but for the most part, everyone is generally healthy. My aunt is an addictions counselor in fact. No physical, verbal or sexual abuse as a kid or as an adult. I was very loved, they were strict, but in the big picture, I couldn't ask for better parents, grandparents, and aunts / uncles.

I don't see where this happened. I have had a string of long term relationships in my adult life, with semi long, healthy breaks in between them. I ENJOY being alone, that has never bothered me aside from a twinge of loneliness here and there.

But then I look back, and of the 5 long term live in relationships I've had, the first was a gambling addict, the second became addicted to meth after a horrible life changing event (he kicked that and is now an alcoholic), and now I've got an A that used to have a gambling problem, and can't live without a female for longer than a week. When I leave this one, there will be another RIGHT behind me. That knowledge feels good...

WHAT THE HELL?! How did I become a codie? And If I can't even begin to answer that, is there even a chance in hell that I can truly fix it?! My picker is clearly broken with men. I should say that none of them are / were bad men - just men I don't want to be with, or have as part of my family.

How do I break this cycle, and what causes codependency? Genetics? Environment? Other mental health issues that are untreated (depression, NPD, etc?) WHAT DID THIS TO ME?! TO US?!

CarryOn

I certainly don't have the answer, but I'll pass on a few of my own observations & experience.

I think the development of codie behavior in my case actually goes back a generation...my paternal grandfather (that I never met) was an alcoholic. My maternal grandparents had both died by the time my mom was 20. I have a very normal/functional immediate family, but the effects of these events in my parents' lives led them to being codie and raising a bunch of codies. I do not know that I ever would have realized it had RAH not relapsed. When I read Codependent No More I started to realize the combination of seemingly minor contributions that led to a big issue.

So, I've observed (within my family) that codies matched with other codies resemble fairly normal, healthy relationships as they do not have someone else taking advantage of them. Codie matched with A, or someone with mental disorder, etc. leads to problems.

Don't know if this helps, but maybe some food for thought. I'm interested to read others responses.

kudzujean

I don't believe we are.

Lots of times, there's alcoholism, abuse, mental illness, etc., somewhere in the family. It just isn't talked about, or isn't known about if it was decades ago.

If grandpa, grandma, or great-uncle was an alcoholic, mentallly ill, etc., you're not going to see it written down in the family Bible.

Stung

I'm not codependent by nature, I'm actually VERY independent by nature, but the events over the past 3 years have slowly turned me into a codependent. I've become a wife, mom and overall caretaker and then when I paused my career to stay home with DD1 I became literally dependent on my husband. I tied my cart to his horse, put all my eggs in his basket. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

firebolt

I hear you , Stung - I feel like i've even been TOO independent at times in my life. I just don't know where it got off track.

Carry On, and Jean - you have some great points. I knew my grandparents, but I didn't live with them. You never really know what goes on I guess.....and now that I think about it, maybe my parents could be codies?! Definitely food for thought. Thank you!

Stung

I think that kind if goes hand in hand with whether someone is a programmed alcoholic. Truth be told, I think my alcoholic husband is actually codependent on me, and then when I became super anxious with my first pregnancy he started to look for other coping mechanisms. Towards the end of his spiral here, if I had a bad day he would freak out. I basically am in control of his emotional stability and mine.

atalose

I think it's an ill learned behavior where we place all the importance on other peoples feelings first. Try make others happy then we will be. People pleasing so we are liked and accepted.

The theme always being on others first not ourselves. Being taught that putting ourselves first is selfish snd wrong.

Not fully understanding what is healthy and what is not. Understanding that family is not a license for abuse of any kind. That a family member doesn't get a free pass to be disrespectful or verbally abusive just because they are family.

I grew up in a very loving home, no abuse but allot of codependency where the focus was always on others never me or us. I always heard things like, don't hurt their feelings. And when someone would hurt my feelings, there were always excuses on why. My mom was not confrontational and never stuck up for herself. When I was growing up she lead me towards being like her and keeping my mouth shut and trying to just ignore my hurt feelings and not stand up for myself. She loved me very much but taught me what she knew.

I explored what healthy really was outside of my family and have worked hard on making some big changes in my life. Today my mom wishes she could have been more like me and made better decisions for herself.

When we know better we do better.

Cats and dogs gets rescued and brought into loving homes. We can't rescue people it doesn't work the same way.

LifeRecovery

I also am a very independent person. I also struggle with codependency. They are not mutually exclusive in my experience.

I did NOT grow up in addiction, but just like addiction can be passed down in generations, I believe codependency can. I did not grow up with abuse, addiction etc, but I myself struggle with an eating disorder that I have been in recovery for for years. I believe that I am not a "codependent" but that I behave in codependent ways. I choose to look at it this way (and it was a big part of my eating disorder) because I don't want to define myself by a "disease" state.

I also believe that for me my attraction/marriage etc to a person with the disease of alcoholism was not a coincidence. For me I was on this path from an early age. For me when I am alone I easily make decisions, and can take care of myself. As soon as a relationship is encountered though I struggle to not give my power and care of self onto another. I did this in my family, with friends, and with intimate partners.

My relationship that got me here was just what I needed. I had a long-term festering wound of codependent behaviors that was making me sick, and was interfering with my life. It was very painful to open this wound up, clean it out and stitch it back together....but it was the only chance to heal this wound.

I think I needed this relationship that got me here because in this relationship the PAIN of not looking at those behaviors was less than the pain of where the relationship was. For me (and me only) this is not about abuse, addiction etc in my family, but it is about dysfunctional patterns that were in my family. I am not saying anyone did anything wrong, just the opposite, but there were still pieces of my family missing.

The relationship that got me here I have learned many lessons from. I don't like the lessons, but have had invaluable learning that I appreciate from them.

Florence

Codependency is the willingness to continue a one-sided, dysfunctional thing way past the point it should have stopped working for you. You're trying desperately to continue a relationship with someone who doesn't. I know a lot of folks who fall into this category that don't have experience with addiction. Adoptees, rape survivors, children of the mentally ill, children of control freaks, and so forth.

Ding! Narcissistic mother, depressed father. They told us kids what to do. My sisters did it, I didn't. I didn't because I was abused as a kid, my parents didn't deal with it, blamed it on me, and I thought they were unsafe people for me. Over time, this has been reinforced over and over as they controlled me by withholding love, money, support, etc. I was prime for abusive relationships, and so I've had them. Go back a generation and there is depression, mental illness, and chronic physical illness on both sides. There's no addiction anywhere, either side.

I had a conversation with my therapist a long while back, asking whether or not there were families that didn't have this kind of nastiness just under the surface. She assured me there are. I have to believe that.

healthyagain

I do not think it is genetic. I think that there is always something in the family. And supposedly, dysfunctional families never think there is something wrong in the system. All is fine if you play your little role and do not stir poop too much.

firebolt

Wow - thanks so much for the insight.

Alatose - it sounds like we had the same parents! It's so interesting...

"When we know better we do better."

Yes - love this.

JustAGirl1971

For me, it's definitely a genetic or learned behavior. Lots of addictions in my family - alcoholism, shopping, internet, gaming, overeating, workaholism, even an exercise-o-holic as we call my sis (walks 15 miles/day.) And, lots of codependents and double winners. Dad's a double winner, mom a shopping addict & raging codependent. I recognize the tendency towards addiction in myself & therefore, drink rarely and sparingly. I can see roots of my codependency in my childhood. I was the "caretaker." Brought Dad his beers, defended him when Mom nagged him about any/everything, made sure he had a blanket when he passed out, picked up beer cans, etc. Ds's counselor says codependent behaviors can be passed from one generation to the next even when there's no longer an alcoholic/addict in the picture. It's just a learned (bad) behavior of how to relate with/to others.

CarryOn

This is such a huge eye-opener for me. RAH is ACoA as well, so I know he has codie tendencies too...you've really given me something to think about.

I hope others continue to contribute to the thread...very interesting stuff. I definitely do not think you have to have an active addict in your life to learn codependent behaviors. I also believe that codependent behaviors are often normal, empathetic behavior taken to an unhealthy extreme.

Stung

*and control is the wrong word...I am/was responsible for, not in control of

I still am. If I'm mad at AH he's automatically mad at me. Funny thing is that one of his best friends is the same way (his wife and I have swapped stories before.) If AH screws up, I can't be mad at him because he's already so pissed off that all I can do is damage control. Beyond weird and super frustrating.

Mightyqueen801

When I first began to see my therapist he used to ask me if I was sure my mother wasn't an alcoholic, as if I were in denial about her drinking or something. My parents rarely drank alcohol at all, yet I married someone who was not only an alcoholic but abused drugs and was a compulsive gambler to boot. He was addicted to everything but working.

Eventually we came to realize that I HAD learned codie behavior from my mother, who was your typical martyr. She'd grown up having all her needs shoved aside for a mentally ******** and physically handicapped sister, and then she married my father--a WWII veteran who was a sweet, quiet man, but who had lost his legs in the war and who suffered from what we now know is PTSD. My mother had to do a lot of the physical work around the house as well as haul a wheelchair from the house to the car when my father's stumps were infected and he couldn't wear his artifical legs.

I learned from her that I didn't count, that I should put my own needs aside and do whatever I had to do to help the people in my life--and I made damn sure I dug up a needy person to bring into my life. It was the only way I knew how to function.

Coupled with that was a religious upbringing that emphasized more of the same--forgive over and over again, don't get angry, let people walk all over you and God will reward you...someday...

firebolt

*"If I'm mad at AH he's automatically mad at me. "

Wow - yeah....with all the analyzing of him I've done, you'd think I'd have considered that before. I always knew that when I bring up a problem, he immediately slams me with 10 ridiculous reasons he is mad at me....therefore my initial issue NEVER gets addressed. His father was an A, and I never considered he might be codie as well. Wierd.

Mightyqueen - yes, we had the same religious and codie sentiments in our home growing up. Everything - for everyone but ourselves.

Thank you all for some clarity today.

Stung

Firebolt, in Codependent No More, one of the examples of codependency that she uses is a stay at home mom who is dependent on her husband and children for her emotional stability (that's not the word I'm looking for but my mommy brain is acting up right now). When I read that I instantly thought 'OMG, that's AH to a freaking T!' If I have a good day (finding out that DD2 was a girl, I was elated) then AH is having a good day. If I have a bad day (having the flu while pregnant) then AH can't cope with life and freaks out on me.

This makes me tip toe around him - codependent behavior - because he relies on my emotions as his own emotional barometer. But what's even worse and caused it to spiral is that AH actually has anxiety about what my mood is going to be like. He works himself into such anxiety about *my* moods that he can't handle it and has panic attacks or gets drunk.

The thing is, I was pregnant and then had just had a baby when he got bad. Of course I was moody…I was super hormonal!

Florence

I hope this isn't OT. It's part of a continuation of my comment above, and I've written a novel and deleted 3/4 of it. Ha!

I've thought about this a lot -- its been the subject of a lot of personal, long-term grief -- but I think I was the target of my mom's ire because I couldn't hide the effects of the sexual abuse. She likes to lavish my sisters with praise -- they both married nice men who should be considered for sainthood with the amount of Florence family crap they put up with -- and frequently likes to tell me what's wrong with me. Today I might be too fat, tomorrow it might be that I was too quick (!) to divorce my STBXAH, the next day it's that I'm a bad mom. It's non-stop. None of these things are true. A few weeks ago she suddenly started worrying that I would lose my job. Then she was convinced someone was going to sabotage my job... huh? I think about the layers of self-doubt that are a regular part of my life thanks to her anxiety and sabotage and know that this relationship is part of why I still struggle. I'm learning to set my terms and have compassion and/or distance from her judgement, but it's still a struggle.

My only point talking about FOO is that somehow, somewhere, we were taught to accept unacceptable behavior and roll with it. These familial relationships are so formative. I think women get this programming in general -- we're taught to suck it up and be nice, not make a scene, not throw elbows, be small, and feminine and not take up space. I think that's some of it for sure. But more generally, we learned that our needs were ultimately not that important, and that keeping the peace for the unit was more important than being individually taken care of.

What happens when your AH gets really mad? Mine was not usually physically abusive, so I learned to speak up and be mad about things that were legit to be mad about and let him deal with the consequences. I couldn't control how he dealt with it, but I was mad, damn it, and it wasn't fair for me to steam in silence and cry in the bathroom alone as I often did. You know, if he screwed around drinking and lost his job, I was mad! Yes, I was mad! Part of the disease is him convincing me that I can't be mad... or else. The "or else" implies all kinds of crazy I haven't thought of imagining yet. Want to see a codie spin out with the crazy? Whisper "...OR ELSE!" in her ear.

I could write about this forever. But the gist is that honoring my feelings and learning that my feelings were legitimate and important and that honoring them was vital to my physical health was a major turning point in my recovery. It was the initial undoing of the threads that are the fabric of my codependency.

Hammer

ehh. Origins of my Codependency.

Not genetic in my case. But childhood issues.

Pretty tough sexually abused.

Generally guys come out with three outcomes from that:

1. Perps, themselves -- relatively rare, fortunately, but aka the Vampire Syndrome; or

2. Totally Withdrawn Loners, or;

3. Rescue Rangers/Overachievers -- that would be me. Former Fire Fighter, Combat Arms Officer, Advanced Degrees, Big Brothers -> to working with abused kids. So when My Little A showed up as a Borderline Waif, wanting to be a Social Worker to work with hurt kids, too (mirroring me), we were all over each other like white on rice.

LifeRecovery

Florence-

I just went and spent some time with a good childhood friend of mine, and she has recently moved back close to her parents while her husband is deployed.

In many ways this family was my rock when I was younger....not only the relationship with my friend, but their relationship as a family that I got to participate in.

Seeing them was intensely freeing, and really, really hard. My friend is an amazing parent, but I know she had a good stepping stone to being a great parent, because she had a great example growing up.

The moment that really struck me though, and I am still working through with my therapist was how her parents could hold more than one feeling/emotion/thought in their head at any one time. Not only that but they could express it, and they were "okay" that it was not black/white.

For the first time I let myself compare my childhood experiences. No there was no abuse, but there was a lot of black and white thinking, and very, very little emotion. I am still grieving over this realization, but at least now that it is in the conscious part of my brain I can start acting and stop reacting around it.

It makes me sad that you can experience this, but it is nice not to feel alone.