Upsetnneedhelp

I have been reading for hours here this weekend. I have concluded that tough love doesn't always work and can make it worse. A friend recently second guessed my decision to allow my son to be paroled to my home. Would I do it again? Yes, I would because if he went to a half way house with other convicts he would of ended up re-arrested anyways. At least, I had a week or so to see him. Kicking out a loved one seems to be a big thing here. It is suppose to be the addicts bottom but it isn't. Going to jails and prison is another suppose bottom. My son was using drugs while in prison. In my eyes, tough love can be seen as giving up hope.

Pelican

I'm glad you had those days with your son. It was important to you.

Upsetnneedhelp

Yes it was. I just feel as if some here do not realize how strong addiction can be. The addict will choose the alcohol or drugs over food, shelter, sex ect...I read people afraid of giving gifts to their loved ones because they will sell them. I mean a $20 gift is not exactly going to feed a serious addiction. I see people thinking they are enabling when, in reality, they are not.

RhodeIsland

I guess the take away I've found, reading these forums, is that its not about "tough love" working on the addict. It's about those who are codependent working towards ending the codependency and moving on as needed to protect themselves, their children and not enter a future where the addict continues to drag them down with their shenanigans. It's about loving yourself enough. Hope won't prevent abuse, hope won't prevent a child from growing up exposed to an alcoholic and their psychological absence, hope won't give a spouse the love they need - the love that was just as much part of the vows as "in sickness and in health", hope won't stop the drug dealers from showing up asking a wife for money owed to her drug addict husband, hope won't give back all the years the addict was absent from their spouse and children's lives. Ending codependency on an addict is the beginning of a real hope, a light at the end of the tunnel for a lot of people. It's about a better tomorrow and owning our own happiness - and no longer continuing to lose irreplaceable time spent in those who would rather drink and drug than be there for us. It is a woman beginning to face the reasons she stays with the addict - the self doubt, the low self esteem, the feelings that she couldn't be loved by someone else.

You view it as giving up hope, but for those whose addicts continue using the only hope is preservation of self. I can't say what is right for you and your son. Do what you think you need to do. Perhaps talking to those in the parents thread would be therapeutic.

Upsetnneedhelp

Rhode Island, yes the parents thread I need to read. I think the dynamics are different for your children then when you are the husband/wife of the alcoholic. I find nothing wrong with completely cutting someone off but at the same time the enabler should realize that death is the real bottom for some people.

RhodeIsland

If a ship is to sink, it will sink with or without the women and children on onboard.

I'm certain those dealing with addicts in this forum are under no illusions for what the bottom might mean for the addicts in their life. They have/are however, working towards accepting they didn't cause it, they can't cure it, and they can't control it.

suki44883

I think you are confusing tough love with friends and family saving themselves. If their actions save them from sinking with the ship (the addict), then it works. It isn't done to save the addict because we know we are not powerful enough to do that.

Watching a loved one sink deeper and deeper into addiction is a terrible thing. The addict is going to do whatever they want to do and they don't care if they destroy us along with themselves. Once we accept that we cannot save them, we next realize we CAN save ourselves. At that point, the steps we take are for our own benefit.

PippiLngstockng

Every interaction I have with xah has an element of hope in it. Hope that he isn't so far gone, that he will think of his beautiful children, that he will hear me through my words or silences.

Every hope is dashed and hurts.

The only time I don't hurt is when I do something that has nothing to do with him. Those are my moments of peace.

You don't detach to save the addict.

You detach to save what you can of yourself.

Hopeworks

Tough love and detachment is not easy when you are dealing with a loved one and you are enveloped in fear of their death or destruction of their lives. I know I was there for many, many years with my father, my brother, my husband and my XA whom I still love but have been separated from for 4 years.

I couldn't save any of them... and the only ones that got better did so after I cut the apron strings.

Every situation is different and your experience may be different than mine... but recovery lies within the addict alone... we really have nothing to do with it although enabling often makes it possible for the addict to continue their lifestyle of using.

Its a journey of discovery for all... keep learning about the foe (addiction) and about yourself with books, alanon, this website and counseling if you can. In time you will be confident in what is right for you and your loved one!

Good luck...

Lulu39

Which is one of the reasons I made my XAH leave. I refuse to find his dead body under my roof. I refuse for my children to have to do the same. I hope that he doesn't drop dead when the children are visiting with him, but I can't control that.

When (not if, WHEN) the hospital or the morgue or the police call me to tell me he is deathly ill or dead it will not come as a surprise.

I will not live with someone who is slowly committing suicide right in front of my eyes - a suicide I am POWERLESS to do anything about. Nothing I did or said ever helped or changed him. NOTHING.

Am I going to live the rest of my life babysitting and paying for a drunk who doesn't give a crap about me or his kids or how the mortgage will be paid or how bad he smells or how bad he looks or how embarrassing he is or how much he hurts us or am I going to live a life where I can sometimes be happy rather than permanently miserable, scared, frightened and walking on eggshells?

Here's another way of looking at it: Your son never shared your bed as an adult and pissed in it or on you. Being metaphorically pissed on isn't quite the same, in my experience.

Us lucky spouses get both metaphorically pissed on and actually pissed on.

Upsetnneedhelp

That statement seems to say that you have given up hope on him. You are not that powerful to say that he will never recover.

dandylion

Upserneedhelp---I think the feeling of helplessness that we feel in not being able to control the outcome--whatever that will be--is the hardest thing of all to learn to live with.

As for how we administer to our loved ones---I believe that each of us has to consult our own highest counsel....at our core.....where we have our relationship with the powers at play in this Universe. It is very personal. In the end, we all have to live with ourselves. Do what your heart and soul tells you, I say.

What I, the dandylion, thinks, doesn't matter one twit.

dandylion

cynical one

What is your definition of tough love and where are you getting the definition from?

Tough love is not something you "do" to others (addicts/non-addicts/whoever). Tough love is something you practice on yourself and doesn't even have to involve other people.

soberhawk

I am suspicious towards the term “tough love” when people talk about it as something to provoke a reaction. I think that could bring you to be entangled in some manipulative games and I am not sure it is healthy. On the other hand I find it very wrong to let other take advantage of one – I am not blaming the victim, but I think we should be aware of this and take care of our selfs when we can.

In the end upset I do not see it that much as what you do. Whether you give him a tv or 20$ or not. It is more whether he is pushing you around in the arena or you are doing what you find right and fair.

OnawaMiniya

On thefreedictionary.com tough love has been defined as:
The use of strict disciplinary measures and limitations on freedoms or privileges, as by a parent or guardian, as a means of fostering responsibility and expressing care or concern.

The definition that popped up on Google was:
promotion of a person's welfare, esp. that of an addict, child, or criminal, by enforcing certain constraints on them, or requiring them to take responsibility for their actions.

Is this what you mean by tough love, OP? It seems that there is confusion as to how you define it, and/or what actions constitute tough love.

There also seems to be confusion whether you are confusing tough love with loved ones of alcoholics saving themselves. Sometimes actions taken aren't about the alcoholic; they are about/for the loved ones.

Please clarify.

OnawaMiniya

She's talking about her ex husband, and you are talking about your child. I think that makes a big difference. She didn't raise him. She married him.

Do you feel guilty in some way about your son's drinking? I'm not saying this to judge you, I'm just curious about the big picture.

She has just as much of a right to "give up hope" as he has to drink himself to death, and hurt everyone around him while he does it.

About the statement,"You are not that powerful to say that he will never recover." The thing is, NO ONE, no matter how much hope they hold out, and on the other end of the spectrum, no matter how bitter they are about someone's drinking, has the power to say whether anyone won't or will recover...

That's up to the alcoholic, ultimately.

Stung

I agree about defining tough love. To me that falls under disciplining a child, as in a person who is under 18 years of age.

Tough love is taking a pacifier away from a toddler because you know it's bad for their teeth even though its soothing/comforting to them. That's my take on it at least.

I have never used "tough love" with my AH because he's not a child and certainly not my child. It's not my role in his life to teach him.

Hopeworks

I think the healthy way to define what many think tough love might accomplish is boundaries.

It should never be about trying to control another adult person but is all about how we choose to live our lives and allow others to impact us by their choices and actions.

I eventually chose to not allow my A loved one to cause me extreme distress and anxiety by removing myself from his toxic lifestyle and choices. Was it "tough" ... yes ... for both of us.

But he continued to choose to drink and maintain that lifestyle for over two more years. Now he is sober. But he chose to stop drinking because HE CHOSE IT... and he stopped just like that. After decades of rehabs, detoxes, programs, jail cells, handcuffed to hospital beds, doctors pronounced his life in serious jeopardy, lost families, loved ones... chaos, confusion and even close to death numerous times NOT WORKING... after I spent years... four long years trying to force sobriety with complete and utter failure.

He decided to stop. Just like Forrest decided to run and then decided to stop running. Simply the worst alcoholic I ever met... could keep time with Bill and the Oldtimers... fully qualified hopeless alcoholic.

Quit. Got a job. Got a home. Saving money. Normal guy in active recovery. Because now he wants it more than his next breath. He wants it and is willing to whatever it takes.

It can happen. But they have to want it and be willing to the do the work. All the hovering, helicoptering and running interference and fixing their world and loving them to pieces won't stop them from drinking if they want to drink.

And that is what I learned after years and years of hell trying to stop my A from drinking. Lois said it. Love is not enough. Create boundaries and take care of yourself and your children. The A and his HP can figure it out. Or not.

Upsetnneedhelp

I thinking cutting off a loved ones finances does nothing. I never gave my son money for booze or dope. He never stole from me either. He did bring around some of his gang friends which I never really likes. They seemed to have a negative influence on him. Alcohol is a very cheap drug and any good alcoholic can gather up enough money for a 12 pack. If "tough love" is for us codies than I guess I misunderstood. Because "tough love" for the alcoholic or addict just makes them spiral down more.

Lulu39

As is my right. His drunken behaviour was abuse of me and my children. I have every right to "give up hope" for the drunk who is slowly killing himself and ******* up my life and the lives of our children.

I am not here for advice on HIS RECOVERY. He is an active addict in denial.
I know from experience and from reading here and Al Anon that I am powerless. When you realise you are powerless it is actually very freeing.

I am POWERFUL enough to make sure his addiction and his drunken behaviour doesn't financially, emotionally and verbally abuse me and my kids.

I chose me and my children, he chose alcohol and drugs. Sucks to be him