Crazed

Looking for some advice here-

I had a 13-yr relationship with alcoholic. She hit rock bottom in April, and has been sober for almost 9 months, successfully dealing with her financial and legal consequences. During our time together, I helped raise her 2 kids (we had them every other week). They are now 16 and 19. Since she moved out, the kids have essentially cut me out of their lives. Despite multiple contact attempts, they have not responded back. Even to a simple "Happy Birthday" text that I sent to the 19 year old yesterday. It kills me, with a constant wondering of what I did wrong- I am not the alcoholic.

From their mothers perspective, they have limited contact. Even yesterday, on EXRAGs birthday (shares birthday with her daughter), she got a brief phone call from eldest daughter. Nothing from the younger daughter. She is crushed- daughter is home from college and off at the movies with step-mom, and doesn't even make the time to see biological mom- no cards, nothing.

Part of me is so angry and wants to call these kids and say "WTF- your mother needs you and your support. What is wrong with you for being so heartless." It seems like the kids are either punishing her, or purposely trying to oust her from their lives. The EXRAG is so crushed over and over by her kids lack of kindness, response, emotion, etc. She goes from crying so hard, to trying to practice acceptance and that this is a consequence of her actions. But it breaks my heart to see EXRAG suffering when she is trying so hard to do the right thing.

My thinking is that she needs to be open and honest with the kids- perhaps write a letter saying how their lack of contact hurts. Or even ask if they are trying to end their relationship with her. Her take (as well as her sponsor's) is that she should not do that- it is manipulative, and puts the kids in uncomfortable situations. At this point in life- it should be about the kids...

Any suggestions? What is your experience? How should I handle it regarding the kids- stop reaching out, or continue to let them know I still care? How should EXRAG handle things? Is this what she can expect regarding her relationship with her daughters for the rest of her life? Do they ever come around? Do they need to be confronted, or let the cards fall and just pray and have faith that things will get better?

Sorry for so many questions, but I am hurting by having the kids ignore me, and I can only imaging that the pain EXRAG is going through is 1000 times worse- and still trying to stay sober.

BlueSkies1

My daughter and I didn't do very well for several years, mostly high school, and a couple tense, or distant years in uni.
The thing is with kids is to nip it in the bud whatever is wrong. Anything left to fester continues to be reinforced with negative thinking.
Obviously this can't be nipped in the bud at this stage. However, time is of the essence.
The mom needs to reach out and say that she wants to hash out the issues with her kids.
Now, the kids still have the choice to reject that.
As for you...I'm unsure what role you play in their lives at this point. I understand that doesn't diminish your pain.
I suppose that you too have the right to ask for a sit-down, and LISTEN should you get that privilege.
However, again, they are old enough to refuse, and either of you must honor that.
I did hash it out with my daughter, and on several occasions. These types of lack of communication require more than one attempt to bring together a relationship again to reach a tete-a-tete.

If your love is endless, then endless birthday cards they will receive, whether they ever reply or not.
That is your choice should they refuse to answer, continue to send the cards, or stop.
I feel for you crazed. I think this is also one of those "set it free, if it was ever yours it will come back to you" situations.
It may take ten years to answer those birthday cards, crazed. Then again, it may take a few months of communication if they agree to a sit-down.

Hammer

I will give you this praise upfront, Crazed.

Even though you may not like what you hear, here. You come and get it.

As far as the kids . . .

GOOD FOR THEM!!!!

While you may not have had enough "A" crap, sounds like they have and have figured out how to handle it -- in the best way for them, right now.

I am thinking they are NOT so much fed up with you . . . but looking at how "persistent" you are, they may be, also. (You follow that persistent is not a good thing?) But it sounds like they are fed up with "A" crap, and you are directly and completed associated with it, so they have had to cut you off, too.

Smart Kids.

Consider they have had to go through all that crap with her drunk and they did not even have an aspirin for their pain.

SparkleKitty

As an Adult Child of an Alcoholic myself, I can tell you that I had recovery of my own to do. My recovery and my relationship with my mother is not anyone else's business. As someone who has been on the receiving end of being told what I "needed" to do and be in order to support my alcoholic mom, recovering or no, I can tell you that any contact or advice from you is likely unwelcome.

They may decide they want a better relationship with their mom someday. They may not. They are individuals, almost adults, and deserve the dignity of coming to their own conclusions about it, in their own time, without any outside pressure. Your XRAGF's recovery does not hinge on the actions of others, even her own family, and sometimes the consequences of a long drinking career include the loss of the people closest to you.

Lewis73

I know how you feel....my 17 year old just up'd and left to live my my parents this year. She and her mum speak if they see each other but that's hardly ever...and it's polite chat at best.

Their relationship is in tatters and mine is only just starting to get back. I think teenagers have so much going on in their heads (anyway) that it's sometimes just easier to blank out the issues and the people.

When I was 16 my brother had cancer...for a few yrs it was touch and go.....I just withdrew into myself - and I know it hurt my parents terribly that I didn't seem to care. I did, I just felt that I was protecting myself by shutting them all out. My parents and brother.

The problem with this theory is how on earth do you get through to them....I have no idea. I never really realised how screwed up I'd become until, at 19/20 I met my future soon to be exAW and unloaded it all one her. She saved me 20 years ago from that bottled up pain and I have no idea how my parents could have done the same....nor how I could get through to my daughter now.

As an aside....brother just had his first kid this year......so life isn't all bad.

Hammer says its smart.....I dont know if they are being smart or just protecting themselves (which,although smart.....is also bottling up emotions that need to be addressed)???

JustAGirl1971

The teen years are tough! Even in a healthy family, they are tough. In addition to the usual pressures of school, there's the added pressures of determining who you are apart from your family, what you want to do with your life, and where you want to go to college (or what to do after graduation.) Add in raging hormones, volatile tempers, and peer relationships and pressure, and it's enough to stress anyone out!

Now, throw in the years of broken promises and dysfunction from having a newly reformed A for a mother and you can see why the girls would feel hurt, angry, and betrayed by their mother. They are justified in feeling that way. Mom has a lot to make up for! 9 months of sobriety will not erase years of craziness. At this point, it's Mom who needs to be doing all the work - reaching out to the girls, making amends for the past, staying sober, working a program, and being a steady, reliable, functional mother. Every day she does that will be one day closer to reconciliation.

My 15 yr DS is currently living with my parents because of the dysfunction in our home. His father (my husband) has been sober for a little over a month but is not working a program. DS is angry at his father and angry at me. And rightfully so because I was the sober parent and did not take steps to protect him. My guess is that your XGf's daughters may feel the same way towards you. I'm sorry, I know it's painful. The best thing IMO that you can do is get help for yourself (from counseling or Al-Anon), and leave the girls and their mother to sort out their relationship on their own.

AnvilheadII

those KIDS went thru hell and back while their mother was steeped in her addiction. they have EVERY right to choose NOT to engage with her.........or you. you think YOU hurt? ever consider how THEY feel?

quit stalking them. leave them alone. let things be. let other people live their lives as THEY see fit. they have their reasons. poor little x(?)gf is dealing with the consequences of her choices and actions. that's how it is in the real world.

Greensleeves

Crazed, I love that you love those kids, and that you long to see reconciliation between them and their mother. Those instincts are good. But, they are recovering in their own way, at their own pace, and they need to figure out what's healthiest for them and their mom. Yes, she's experiencing the consequences of her actions as an A, and the best thing you can do for her, and for those kids, is allow that to happen.

atalose

Crazyed, your post is no different then the one you wrote awhile back regarding the exact same thing. it was when those kids ignored you when you insisted on acknowledging their birthdays and were hurt by no reply.........what made you think it would be ok this time?

You keep putting yourself out there to be hurt again and again, WHY? Why do you keep holding on to people who doesn't want to be held? What is going on inside of you that keeps you so attached to them when you know they don't want to be involved with you?

It's very disrespectful and stalker like.

Doesn't appear you are moving on with your life it's still all wrapped around people who are long gone.

fluffyflea

[


The kids have obviously made a decision to take care of themselves which is none of your business and none of their mothers business. As much as that may hurt you (if you let it) it,s their decision. The more you push the more it drives them away.

Just my E.S.H.


QUOTE=Crazed;4357879]Looking for some advice here-

I had a 13-yr relationship with alcoholic. She hit rock bottom in April, and has been sober for almost 9 months, successfully dealing with her financial and legal consequences. During our time together, I helped raise her 2 kids (we had them every other week). They are now 16 and 19. Since she moved out, the kids have essentially cut me out of their lives. Despite multiple contact attempts, they have not responded back. Even to a simple "Happy Birthday" text that I sent to the 19 year old yesterday. It kills me, with a constant wondering of what I did wrong- I am not the alcoholic.

From their mothers perspective, they have limited contact. Even yesterday, on EXRAGs birthday (shares birthday with her daughter), she got a brief phone call from eldest daughter. Nothing from the younger daughter. She is crushed- daughter is home from college and off at the movies with step-mom, and doesn't even make the time to see biological mom- no cards, nothing.

Part of me is so angry and wants to call these kids and say "WTF- your mother needs you and your support. What is wrong with you for being so heartless." It seems like the kids are either punishing her, or purposely trying to oust her from their lives. The EXRAG is so crushed over and over by her kids lack of kindness, response, emotion, etc. She goes from crying so hard, to trying to practice acceptance and that this is a consequence of her actions. But it breaks my heart to see EXRAG suffering when she is trying so hard to do the right thing.

My thinking is that she needs to be open and honest with the kids- perhaps write a letter saying how their lack of contact hurts. Or even ask if they are trying to end their relationship with her. Her take (as well as her sponsor's) is that she should not do that- it is manipulative, and puts the kids in uncomfortable situations. At this point in life- it should be about the kids...

Any suggestions? What is your experience? How should I handle it regarding the kids- stop reaching out, or continue to let them know I still care? How should EXRAG handle things? Is this what she can expect regarding her relationship with her daughters for the rest of her life? Do they ever come around? Do they need to be confronted, or let the cards fall and just pray and have faith that things will get better?

Sorry for so many questions, but I am hurting by having the kids ignore me, and I can only imaging that the pain EXRAG is going through is 1000 times worse- and still trying to stay sober.[/QUOTE]

Crazed

Thanks all- Much great advice, but also some perhaps non-intended judgements-

Persistent and stalker-like is harsh. My attempts at contact since around June-

Eldest:
1) Graduation card with $100 (which she sent Thank You note)
2) Text on prom night to say have a fun and safe time
3) Text yesterday on her birthday

Youngest:
1) Text stating good luck at state track meet finals

I hardly think 4 texts total over 7 months qualifies as stalking. These kids lived with me for 10 years. They were very close with my parents, my sister and her husband, my cousins kids, etc (big family). I provided for them, kept them safe, etc. They saw very little alcoholism from mom until about 2 years ago. And the have turned their backs on all but their father and step mother. They no longer associate with ANY family outside of dad, step-mom and step-mom's parents.

While perhaps they are "healing," I believe they are being selfish, and punishing. They have been taught by their dad that it is OK to systematically cut people out of your lives. There is no counseling, therapy or communication. There is just pretending that nothing is wrong, nothing wrong ever happened, and the best solution to any problem is avoidance. This is why I have a difficult time letting things play out- but I have and will.

Perhaps I am taking this statement out of context, but while maybe true for me, alcoholic or not, her children will always be her business.

Crazed

I agree fully with this statement, hence why I came here for advice before I push.

SparkleKitty

Crazed, it's impossible to say what they were aware of or not regarding their mother's alcoholism. Living with an active addict leaves a lot of scars, some we don't see for many, many years down the road. That was what happened to me. I just thought my Mom was angry, and that it was my fault. I understand your circumstances are different, my point is only that it's unreliable to assume we know what other people experience, and how.

Perhaps you are right and that they are just being selfish and punishing. C'est la vie. You don't have any control over how they are being, only how you choose to respond (or not). If they have learned that avoidance is best, it's possible they learned it because it was what they needed to learn in order to survive emotionally. That was I did. It took many, many years, and lots of therapy for me to move past that, and when I did, I had to do it on my timetable, not anyone else's. So yes, sure, her children are her business. But their way of dealing with what they have been through (which no one else should presume to even imagine they understand)? Sorry, that's not. That's theirs.

I'm glad to hear you say you will wait to see how this plays out. I know what a big step that is for you. And like Hammer I admire you coming here to discuss things even though your questions sometimes seem to trigger folks (like me, in this case, I admit). I wish you well in the new year.

AnvilheadII

try to imagine what it must have been like for a child whose mother behaved like this:

So I have been with my AG for 13 years. She has had periods of sobriety and clarity (max of about 3 years), but for the most part, not much serenity. We've had periods apart (not more than 6 months), then always end up back together. Even while not drinking, there has been chaos. A few months after first rehab in 1999, she decided to do 13 steps instead of 12. Also had another affair back in about 2004 (while not drinking). This was blamed on me not be available to her needs (we were both going through some crisis at that time). She began relapsing in 2007, and it went on until March of this year. Drinking consisted of 1 or 2 day periods when I was out of town, followed by maybe 1-5 months of sobriety, and the cycle repeated. She was active in AA the majority of time, and has a drawer full of white chips. Things came to a head in March, and finally told her she had to go to rehab or move out. The next day, she went to her employed EAP and did - rehab for 40 days. I visited, and also went through intense family counseling with her for a solid weekend (about 30 hours). We were very open, and I felt like we again were very connected. At "completion," her counselors recommended 90 days in a halfway house vs coming home, which she did. She finally came home in July, at which time we really connected for a few weeks. I was thinking all would be ok.

Over the next several months, things were not good. I travel frequently, and this is a know trigger. When my 6th sense kicks in (hear slurring on phone, she disappears for long blocks of hours), I am fast to accuse, and she is quick to deny. This results in crazyness, as I am never quite sure. Distance was growing between us, as she was attending so many AA meetings, and all other time was spent with us attending to the kids schedules. We finally had a few conversations at the end of October about our needs not being met and things we need to do to get the relationship back on track. On her way to visit her family out of town (3.5 hours away), she called and told me how she loved me, and was glad we were finally able to break down some walls. .... It turns out she was on her way to her ex-boyfriends from high school (we are in our early 40s). A week later, she moved out. The reasoning for moving out was based on discussion with sponsor and therapist, because our relationship was toxic and threatened her recovery. She needed to be alone so she could learn to love herself- No relationships for a year. It was also stated by her sponsor (of 3 years) that if she continued to see the ex, she could no longer be her sponsor, as he was nothing more to her than a "bottle with legs," and a detriment to her healthy recovery.

Fast forward to today - we still talk. If I have no contact for more than a few days, she texts and calls about loving me, is not worthy of me, and misses me dearly. She seems heavily depressed alone, but functioning well around work, etc. Not sure if she is again drinking, but pretty sure there is some form of self-medicating going on. Her sponsor has "fired" her, since she has continued the relationship with Ex (including sleeping with him) and lied to her about it. I also found out that she has been communicating with him since about 2 weeks after she moved back home- like 5 times a day, every day, all hours of the day, night, etc...

instability. immaturity. inconsistency. two priorities - Alcohol and Men. moving in. moving out. off to rehab. half way house. the kids never knew from one day to the next WHAT was going to happen, what new stunt mom was gonna pull, WHERE they'd live next and with whom. FIRST rehab back in '99 - that's 14 years ago. so pretty much the majority of their still very young lives. in relapse since '07, SIX years ago. multiple affairs. eventual loss of job.

nightmare of a mother. I can see why they are just DONE.

lillamy

My response, without reading any others, is this:

Get thyself to Al-Anon.

Not only is the alcoholic not your problem. (She never was, but she is even LESS now that she's an ex.) Her relationship to her children is even LESS your problem.

If you remember, they are the children. Children are not supposed to have to take care of their parents. The fact that you are angry with the children shows me that you have very little clue what it's like to grow up in an alcoholic home. The fact that they want no contact with either one of you makes perfect sense to me. She was drunk most of their childhood and you were apparently there in some respect and did what? I don't know. I mean, you and I are in a similar situation that we were the adult who should have been responsible and removed them from the care of an alcoholic and failed to do so. I thank God every day that my children still love me. That they don't hate me for all the crap I didn't protect them from. They would have every right to hate me. And they have all chosen to have no contact with their father the alcoholic. And they are absolutely in their right to make that choice.

atalose

This would appear that it's more about YOUR codependent issues at work here and not so much the children.

You have forgiven, you support, you take care of, you coddle her and try and make HER world as comfortable as possible so that she will appreciate and love you. Now because you do this behavior you expect her children to do the same and make HER world all loving and normal.

Those kids are damaged, damaged because of her choices. But it's far easier to justify it away by blaming their father and step mother.

You can continue to put her up on a pedestal just don't expect those children to. You are NOT her salvation and neither are they and to say you are angry with them because their mother needs their support and THEY are the heartless ones is truly one of the most codependent things I've ever heard.

Crazed

Thanks for the advice, for those that are really trying to help without harsh judgement.

NWGRITS

I'm in total agreement with this. Good for them! I wish that I had had the sense to get out of my home way earlier than I did. An A home definitely qualifies as one of Dante's circles of hell. The abuse and neglect of the children varies in severity and length of time, but none of it is good. Cutting off my family was the best thing I ever did for myself and my own children. Nobody deserves that living nightmare, and anyone helping to maintain the status quo is just as guilty in my book as the A themselves. So again, good for them for making healthy choices.

fluffyflea

Alanon Meetings Crazed, are the best thing in dealing with this.

Katiekate

How very hard and hurtful the fallout from the relationship with a sick alcoholic is.

It must be very hard, my hope for you Crazed is continued healing and letting go.

It takes us such a long time to come to terms with the mess.

Take care, Katie