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Trouble?

Old 12-09-2013, 09:48 AM
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Trouble?

Hey guys. I wrote the other night about my decision to go out then my deciding against that. I'm on my 133rd day and here's where I'm at:

I just got off the phone with who I presume is now my ex-sponsor. I told him Saturday that because of my lack of physical evidence and being 22, I needed to test the waters again. He said that he had a conversation with another guy who took him through the steps yesterday that said that I absolutely had to go and test the waters. Hearing this when I made the decision not to after saying to myself and others I was going out to drinking and smoke a joint that night was SO ******* frustrating.

I've been involved in AA up until this point, but I honestly attribute some of its policies that are in the literature and spread by word of mouth to my feeling like I should go out the other night. In the past few weeks I've heard people talking about "earning their seat" and how people without extensive or destructive histories haven't yet, either by their own decree or by others. Well, after the other day of having to look over my decision, I felt my conscience overrun by the feelings I had when I was smoking weed on daily basis and drinking in excess at certain points. This reversed my decision.

I'm at the point now where I'm still going to go to AA meetings because support of another is absolutely necessary as far as I'm concerned. Am I entirely powerless over drugs/alcohol though? I don't think so. Is this a reason for me to go back out there? NO! Will this inevitably mean that I'm doomed to go out there regardless, eventually? I hope not, but I'm sick of feeling like this is the case because people in AA tells me it's so.

As far as a belief in a higher power... The other night I had this idea that my "God" would be simply that pull towards what I consider the right thing in the midst of internal conflict. It's not necessarily a higher power, but instead the best of my morality. It's still my will, my free will, that ultimately ends up making the decision. I absolutely refuse to believe that just because I ask for a sign from God and then my tire blows out on the road that that's an answer. As far as I'm concerned, it's the most egotistical thing for a person to believe that just because they're an alcoholic and give up their "will" to god that whatever that is just starts answering calls like a messaging service. Sorry if this conception offends anyone, it's just how I feel.

Anyway, I have a question. Has anyone had experience with taking themselves through the 12 steps? I'm thinking I want to do this and go over step 5 with my psychologist, who understands me and my history. Anyway, thanks to all for listening and their support recently. It really has helped immensely.
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Old 12-09-2013, 10:21 AM
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If you want to do the steps give it a go. I started it but sort of drifted away because I felt unsuited to it. The thing i liked about it however, was that in the beginning, the groups I attended happened to be a bunch of really nice people, so the camaraderie and not being alone spurred me on. Doing steps with your psychologist is something different. If you think it will help, go for it.
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Old 12-09-2013, 10:34 AM
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The third tradition of Alcoholics Anonymous, "The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking".
I'm no AA expert, but additional requirements to 'earn your seat' don't seem to align with the third tradition.
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Old 12-09-2013, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Nonsensical View Post
I'm no AA expert, but additional requirements to 'earn your seat' don't seem to align with the third tradition.
It does not, indeed, but having heard this numerous times by AA members and being someone with only a few months of sobriety, it in part with other notions took hold of me.
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Old 12-09-2013, 11:00 AM
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No offence I tented friend. I am not an AA member.
But this sounds like this is about you more then AA. Call it what you want, powerless might not resonate with you and that's ok. But if you have lost control then find a name, your own name if you wish.

See for me it's exactly like Hulk coming out. I loose control over my emotions and self control. Powerless? Maybe not but how do I keep the beast from coming out if not from an external source of help and inspiration? Choice is clear, whatever gets me there I will embrace. Even if it involves stepping on my ego for a minute.
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Old 12-09-2013, 12:39 PM
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Hi. I and many others "earned our seats" in AA by way of all the personal losses and pain suffered before achieving sobriety. That and the work needed to remain long term sober.

BE WELL
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Old 12-09-2013, 12:45 PM
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I have to say, being younger in AA was hard for me, but I wished I would have stayed in. Do not let anyone take away your chances to recover. I you have a problem with alcohol and have the capacity to be honest, than AA can work for you.
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Old 12-09-2013, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by IOAA2 View Post
Hi. I and many others "earned our seats" in AA by way of all the personal losses and pain suffered before achieving sobriety. That and the work needed to remain long term sober.

BE WELL
This attitude, pervasive at many of the AA meetings I have attended, has alway turned me off. It conveys a sense of superiority, and tells new members "you're not welcome here". If it's not intended that way then the messengers might want to rethink their message.

For the OP (PO) - there are numerous paths to sobriety. Find the one that works for you.
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Old 12-09-2013, 01:11 PM
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Thanks for the responses. It's all helpful, in one way or another.
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Old 12-09-2013, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by PaulOwen View Post
Hey guys. I wrote the other night about my decision to go out then my deciding against that. I'm on my 133rd day and here's where I'm at:

I just got off the phone with who I presume is now my ex-sponsor. I told him Saturday that because of my lack of physical evidence and being 22, I needed to test the waters again. He said that he had a conversation with another guy who took him through the steps yesterday that said that I absolutely had to go and test the waters. Hearing this when I made the decision not to after saying to myself and others I was going out to drinking and smoke a joint that night was SO ******* frustrating.

I've been involved in AA up until this point, but I honestly attribute some of its policies that are in the literature and spread by word of mouth to my feeling like I should go out the other night. In the past few weeks I've heard people talking about "earning their seat" and how people without extensive or destructive histories haven't yet, either by their own decree or by others. Well, after the other day of having to look over my decision, I felt my conscience overrun by the feelings I had when I was smoking weed on daily basis and drinking in excess at certain points. This reversed my decision.

I'm at the point now where I'm still going to go to AA meetings because support of another is absolutely necessary as far as I'm concerned. Am I entirely powerless over drugs/alcohol though? I don't think so. Is this a reason for me to go back out there? NO! Will this inevitably mean that I'm doomed to go out there regardless, eventually? I hope not, but I'm sick of feeling like this is the case because people in AA tells me it's so.

As far as a belief in a higher power... The other night I had this idea that my "God" would be simply that pull towards what I consider the right thing in the midst of internal conflict. It's not necessarily a higher power, but instead the best of my morality. It's still my will, my free will, that ultimately ends up making the decision. I absolutely refuse to believe that just because I ask for a sign from God and then my tire blows out on the road that that's an answer. As far as I'm concerned, it's the most egotistical thing for a person to believe that just because they're an alcoholic and give up their "will" to god that whatever that is just starts answering calls like a messaging service. Sorry if this conception offends anyone, it's just how I feel.

Anyway, I have a question. Has anyone had experience with taking themselves through the 12 steps? I'm thinking I want to do this and go over step 5 with my psychologist, who understands me and my history. Anyway, thanks to all for listening and their support recently. It really has helped immensely.
Paul - Note, i am not in AA, but have huge respect for the program and the millions of people it has helped. Many of these people I would hardly consider "helpless" and "powerless" but, they are alcoholics. AA isn't for everyone, believe me i understand, but sometimes it's not the program but that specific meeting. Can you find a meeting where you feel like you click better before you go it alone completely. In my city, there are always at least 10 meetings going on at the same time... I haven't gone to any yet, but i know they are there.
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Old 12-09-2013, 01:32 PM
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Maybe I am in a different AA crowd but I have never had anyone look at me and say I have not suffered enough yet to have earned a seat in AA.

The only requirement for membership is the desire to stop drinking not how much you have lost or suffered due to said drinking.

There are many that have suffered more and longer then I and there are those that are getting off the ride to hell before they get that far. I applaud them. They must have either more intelligence or courage than I did. Or maybe they just have already gotten sick and tired of being sick and tired. Or maybe they just want to stop drinking.

I understand the comments that people or sponsors make, "go out and have some more fun, you are not ready yet" because I went to AA and went back out for nine years, I was not ready yet. That said I would not have understood it unless I had went back out.

The plain fact is that nobody can make you do anything. This includes drinking or not drinking. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
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Old 12-09-2013, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by PaulOwen View Post
Hey guys. I wrote the other night about my decision to go out then my deciding against that. I'm on my 133rd day and here's where I'm at:

I just got off the phone with who I presume is now my ex-sponsor. I told him Saturday that because of my lack of physical evidence and being 22, I needed to test the waters again. He said that he had a conversation with another guy who took him through the steps yesterday that said that I absolutely had to go and test the waters. Hearing this when I made the decision not to after saying to myself and others I was going out to drinking and smoke a joint that night was SO ******* frustrating.

I've been involved in AA up until this point, but I honestly attribute some of its policies that are in the literature and spread by word of mouth to my feeling like I should go out the other night. In the past few weeks I've heard people talking about "earning their seat" and how people without extensive or destructive histories haven't yet, either by their own decree or by others. Well, after the other day of having to look over my decision, I felt my conscience overrun by the feelings I had when I was smoking weed on daily basis and drinking in excess at certain points. This reversed my decision.

I'm at the point now where I'm still going to go to AA meetings because support of another is absolutely necessary as far as I'm concerned. Am I entirely powerless over drugs/alcohol though? I don't think so. Is this a reason for me to go back out there? NO! Will this inevitably mean that I'm doomed to go out there regardless, eventually? I hope not, but I'm sick of feeling like this is the case because people in AA tells me it's so.

As far as a belief in a higher power... The other night I had this idea that my "God" would be simply that pull towards what I consider the right thing in the midst of internal conflict. It's not necessarily a higher power, but instead the best of my morality. It's still my will, my free will, that ultimately ends up making the decision. I absolutely refuse to believe that just because I ask for a sign from God and then my tire blows out on the road that that's an answer. As far as I'm concerned, it's the most egotistical thing for a person to believe that just because they're an alcoholic and give up their "will" to god that whatever that is just starts answering calls like a messaging service. Sorry if this conception offends anyone, it's just how I feel.

Anyway, I have a question. Has anyone had experience with taking themselves through the 12 steps? I'm thinking I want to do this and go over step 5 with my psychologist, who understands me and my history. Anyway, thanks to all for listening and their support recently. It really has helped immensely.
Paul, we have about the same sobriety time - your a bit a head of me and I can relate to EXACTLY your experience. For me it was the people and not the program but this was difficult for me to see at first. Also, after I went through a rough patch, last week actually it helped me accept step #1. I was actually moving away from the program subconsciously with the hopes of drinking again one day. As this grew in my mind the obsessions came back with full velocity and hit me hard - I stayed sober but this was what I needed to understand who I am and who I will never be.

I find a typical response in AA if you have a question is "go out and drink, you will be back." I don't think this is the program but the Fellows who state this always go back to the BB as a rationalizing. Again, this is the people not the program.

If you have had a relatively high bottom, as it sounds like you may have, it is difficult to stick with the program bc of the what ifs. At least this was the case for me until this past Friday. If you have lost everything then AA serves as your only life raft and you hold on with every once of your being.

The Steps go back in time in many religions - try reading Happiness Hypothesis. I think doing it on your own is not being honest with yourself - truth be told. You want another perspective and you open yourself up to cutting corners and in step #7 you can do more harm than good in Amends - it helps to go through it with someone. So before you entertain it solo, I would suggest finding another sponsor and other meetings too.

You may want to check out Rational Recovery, which has worked well for many on this site. Again, for me I am sticking with my step work through AA but I am not arrogant enough to discard other good programs out there.

Good luck
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Old 12-09-2013, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by PaulOwen View Post
Am I entirely powerless over drugs/alcohol though? I don't think so. Is this a reason for me to go back out there? NO! Will this inevitably mean that I'm doomed to go out there regardless, eventually? I hope not, but I'm sick of feeling like this is the case because people in AA tells me it's so.

As far as a belief in a higher power... The other night I had this idea that my "God" would be simply that pull towards what I consider the right thing in the midst of internal conflict. It's not necessarily a higher power, but instead the best of my morality. It's still my will, my free will, that ultimately ends up making the decision. I absolutely refuse to believe that just because I ask for a sign from God and then my tire blows out on the road that that's an answer. As far as I'm concerned, it's the most egotistical thing for a person to believe that just because they're an alcoholic and give up their "will" to god that whatever that is just starts answering calls like a messaging service. Sorry if this conception offends anyone, it's just how I feel.
I don't agree with these tenets of AA either, Paul, and I felt then and still do now as you do. I examined them and then quit drinking anyway. I do think however that we each need our own plan of some kind, whether we follow steps or find something else that makes sense to us. What is your plan going to be?
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Old 12-09-2013, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by PaulOwen View Post
Hey guys. I wrote the other night about my decision to go out then my deciding against that. I'm on my 133rd day and here's where I'm at:

I just got off the phone with who I presume is now my ex-sponsor. I told him Saturday that because of my lack of physical evidence and being 22, I needed to test the waters again. He said that he had a conversation with another guy who took him through the steps yesterday that said that I absolutely had to go and test the waters. Hearing this when I made the decision not to after saying to myself and others I was going out to drinking and smoke a joint that night was SO ******* frustrating.

I've been involved in AA up until this point, but I honestly attribute some of its policies that are in the literature and spread by word of mouth to my feeling like I should go out the other night. In the past few weeks I've heard people talking about "earning their seat" and how people without extensive or destructive histories haven't yet, either by their own decree or by others. Well, after the other day of having to look over my decision, I felt my conscience overrun by the feelings I had when I was smoking weed on daily basis and drinking in excess at certain points. This reversed my decision.
If we keep in mind that not everything said anywhere, including AA, means everything to everybody, then it's easier to realise everybody has an opinion, right or wrong, and so on and so on.

Forget about "earning your seat" in AA. No requirement to worry about any of that noise. Some folk for whatever personal reasons like to use the phrase for leveraging their opinion of others. None of their business, really. It's every persons own call at what brings them to AA, what keeps them with AA, and as well, what has them moving on from AA.

Me, I never tell anyone they need to go back out and use and abuse some more, as if they'll learn something. There's nothing to learn again about drinking if you've made up your mind to quit, imo. Others disagree, fine by me - it's not about me what opinion others have about other people going back out.

Things can get twisted around when it goes around, lol. It's always advised to not take for granted the source of whatever, imo. Nothing beats being informed - and each of us are the best judge for ourselves if going back out, even for a single drink or toke, is justifiable or not. Nothing out there is worth the risk of experimenting. Sure people can drink if they have set their minds to it, it is what it is for any of us - it's on us to make that call for ourselves. My advice would be for them to reconsider, change their minds for the better life.

As for working the steps alone, that would be a tough go of it, I'm thinking. There are plenty of other AA people around at other meetings you can relate to before going alone within AA program makes for a good choice. Not everybody in AA will rub you wrong, so give yourself as many chances at as many meetings as makes sense for you going forward.

Interesting thread. Good on you for not going out, Paul.
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Old 12-09-2013, 02:24 PM
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I always maintain it's more about the motivation you have than the program you choose. If you want to stop drinking and live a sober life, then you can do it and we're here for support.
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Old 12-09-2013, 03:58 PM
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I found a power greater than I after I got through step 7.

Whatever works for you, go for it!
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Old 12-09-2013, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Nonsensical View Post
This attitude, pervasive at many of the AA meetings I have attended, has alway turned me off. It conveys a sense of superiority, and tells new members "you're not welcome here". If it's not intended that way then the messengers might want to rethink their message.

For the OP (PO) - there are numerous paths to sobriety. Find the one that works for you.
That's interesting... I actually didn't take IOAA's post that way- I took it as the people in AA have "earned their seat" simply by their own personal experiences. I think it's the term "earn seat" that is misleading. I could be wrong though

I have to be honest, I have never felt that way when I attend AA meetings... that to say, everyone has different experiences and I would also wonder if there are other AA meetings you can attend that have a different culture?

All the best, good luck.
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Old 12-09-2013, 04:42 PM
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Ah, the catch phrases meant to deliver a message that actually end up giving a person with an alcoholic mind who is trying to quit an excuse to drink.

In the past few weeks I've heard people talking about "earning their seat" and how people without extensive or destructive histories haven't yet, either by their own decree or by others.
Let me start by saying that first, I agree with your thought process. If people would stop using catch phrases and just say what they mean this wouldn't happen.

In the days that I was still battling having to quit drinking my entire interpretation of that quote would be that I still had some drinking to do. That I hadn't earned my seat yet, I needed to do some more research to realize that I needed to be done with it. Boy oh boy, would I take that and run with it when the urges were present.

Now I look at that phrase, purely because I'm done with drinking, and see that they're trying to say that they had been through enough to finally get to the point where they had it. They were done. This is meant to imply that if you can't put down the drink and stay away from it then you just haven't gotten to that point. You have to be sick of it, I mean really and truly sick of it to succeed in quitting. You have to make up your mind that you're done and that's it, it's over. There is no more choice involved. They are trying to deliver a "message".

The message is "You are still drinking so it's possible that you haven't fully grasped the concept of what has happened or will happen to you due to your alcohol use. They're telling you that's what happened to them that made them finally quit. You can continue on and cause more harm or come to the realization now. You need to figure out what it is that you need to get there".

So there ya go, straightforward, to the point, saying exactly what it means. No chance to misinterpret.

Let me add the disclaimer that I am grateful for AA, it's assisted me in building my sober network and I enjoy learning from people who have been through this.

You know how they usually say "Don't shoot the messenger?" Well in this case I'm saying "Don't shoot the whole program".
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Old 12-09-2013, 04:51 PM
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I took a fair bit away from the early days in AA but it was the catch phrases that got my goat a bit. I found it a bit precious and wanted to say, just say what you mean normally!! I didn't understand half of the jargon. x
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Old 12-09-2013, 04:53 PM
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One of the things that drives me crazy about AA is the way that people get told that they need to go out and drink some more--or that they need to go out and hit a real bottom.

They said the same things to me and I believed them.

I think my recovery really started when a small voice inside me said "**** you" to that. One day, I just decided that they were full of it and made a decision not to listen to just anyone.

That was an important step for me. I think it can be for you as well.
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