pravchaw

Is our expectation for complete abstinence unrealistic for some of our addicted loved ones? If they are not ready to quit, is reduction a viable strategy? Of course some people cannot reduce, but some can. If some one who used to get high every day now But only does it on weekends, is he not improved? Has he not mitigated his negative consequences?

zoso77

Where to start...

Statistically speaking, most addicts do not find lasting, sustained recovery. Because of this, any and all expectations you may have for the addict in your life, statistically speaking, will go unfulfilled. It is what it is.

The only thing you can do, for your own sanity's sake, is to keep the focus on you and not the addict. You can be sane and well even if the addict is still using, but that's a choice.

ZoSo

Leana

In my opinion, if he/she is an addict then eventually weekends won't be enough. To me addiction centers more on "out of control" and "the inability to stop" rather than when or how much is used. So my answer would be no, reduction isn't a viable strategy.

AnvilheadII

in MY experience as a crack addict, we DID cut back, cut down, slowly reduce our useage....but the GOAL was to be DONE. we had the chance to move to a rental beach cottage that cost $1500 a month, compared to our 800 a month rental...we agreed the ONLY way we could afford that was to quit using so much.

so we did. we started getting powder instead of rock. we stopped using every other day and finally beat it down to the weekends.

then my daughter asked is she could come stay with us, after living in LA, til she got settled back in seattle, we said yes. and had to cut WAY back.

then we started looking at houses to buy, instead of renting. we knew we had to make serious changes in order to do so. and so we QUIT, and a month later bought our house on the lake.

we didn't cut back just so we could keep using. we cut back cuz we wanted to be DONE. and we are. 7 years now. but had we kept using? if crack cocaine was still a part of our lives???? we'd be chiefing full time. I would have lost my job years ago....I've been there 23 years now.

an addict that is determined to keep using....WILL. an addict that is determined to quit, WILL.

Dee74

I really understand you wanting that to be true Pravchaw.
I'm sorry that my words will not support that wish.

For me, my addiction was like a toxic relationship.

My 'partner' beat me, abused me and used me - and I let them because I loved & needed them.

I may try to escape and cut my visits back to weekends - things may even go well for a time...but sooner or later I know we'll be living together again and the situation will revert to the way it always was...because my partner, or my desire for it, always calls the shots not me.

I'm as under the spell with a toe in the water as I am fully submerged.

The only way for me to break free and to regain my power was to cut the relationship dead, never to resume.

It was tough, but I honestly believe it's not a task beyond anyone who wants to break free.

There may be some who've been able to dwindle their use slowly but definitively to nothing, and then never take it up again,. but I've never actually met anyone like that yet (edit Ok...except maybe Anvil ).

D

MIRecovery

Time spent controlling our addiction would be much better spent learning how to be abstinent as abstinence works 100 percent of the time and controling the addiction works 0 percent of the time

pravchaw

Not everyone is ready for abstinence at a particular juncture but most people are ready to improve their lives. As Anvil"s post above says it can be done. When you are ready you quit, in you are not ready reduce your damage. The concept of hitting bottom can be very misleading and dangerous.

AnvilheadII

I gotta disagree there...I was scared to f'ing death to go so far as to hit bottom. i'd ONLY used crack for 4.5 years...never THAT much, never days on end, I knew if I let myself go i'd fall into a pit I could not get out of. the thought of HITTING a bottom scared me. abstinence was my ONLY solution. I didn't want to REDUCE the damage, I wanted it to SToP.

it took time. hank had been using for 20 years when we met. he certainly wasn't READY to quit. it took time. he'd quit before and then the sh*t found him again and once again he'd be off to the races. it had him in a tight grip.

abstinence IS the only solution. no using, again, ever, no matter what. anything else leaves you open to the beast. there IS no moderation. no control. I live in utter fear of ever being in the presence of loaded crack pipe and a good lighter. it could kill me. I respect that. life or death. I don't wanna die like that.

KeepinItReal

I agree. I was doing coke everyday and selling. Doing x smoking weed and drinking everyday. I did this at my worst for about 3 years until we quit. We slowly stopped and tapered off yet continued smoking weed.
We felt we made progress. If you want to quit progress is progress.
I literally felt like I would die without coke. I needed weed everyday.
I haven't smoked in years bc I value not needing drugs.
If he keeps trying he will build inner strength. It isn't easy.

AnvilheadII

I remember, it was a Friday night we had smoked tough, finally came to life Saturday morning and said THAT IS IT, no more, we gotta quit doing this sh*t. bit later the phone rings, it's Kris, one of our dealers. what do you want? he said, look out your window. there was the escalade, both kris and kay, our dealers, IN our driveway, at 9am Saturday morning.

what do you do? say no? HA. our stomachs were already churning, heart rate increased, probably something close to drool coming out of our mouths. we had just SAID we were DONE. we had NO intention of calling them, our plan was to NOT use. but.....there they were. and away we went. at 9am.

our intent failed. miserably. the desire to not use, the plan, failed, because we had not yet MADE THE DECISION to be done no matter what.

that is the crux of recovery. to be done, for good, no reservations, no excuses, no matter WHAT happens. period. otherwise you are always susceptible. the door is always ajar. the beast can always get in.

cheekie

Yup...nope...somewhere in between.

allforcnm

As I understand it, one of the key factors in diagnosing addiction is the inability to stop using EVEN when a person suffers negative consequences in their life. We often hear about very severe consequences like criminal behavior, or abusive situations, but I think there are a lot of people in early addiction who suffer consequences less severe; unhappy spouse, spending too much money but not above their means, not functioning at full capacity in work or school but getting by. If this group of people was able to reduce their use, revert back to lesser quantities - would they really be addicts? Or would they be on the fringe and maybe pulled back? And what pulls them back?

The whole concept of a person needing to hit rock bottom is a dangerous myth, at least it is defined that way by the National Institute of Drug Abuse & I agree. People need to feel the consequences of their actions true. But it’s been proven the majority of people who enter treatment do so because they were encouraged by family, friends, employers, or the legal system. The whole concept of harm reduction by reducing the quantity of substances used helps raise the bottom for some addicts. Once the drug afflicted mind has less substance flooding it – it has more opportunity to think with clarity, which can lead to better choices and abstinence. There are therapists who begin with harm reduction to engage their patients as part of an overall plan of abstinence. So if we are family of the person who is on that course, do we look at the symptoms of the disease -to see if they are improving & if behavior now falls in an acceptable level for our relationship... or do we draw the line at a drug test that says negative. Personal choice at that point I think.

As I think you know, CRAFT method (community reinforcement and family training) seeks to change behavior through positive reinforcement, allowing the addicted person to find positive feelings when they reduce their use / choose not to use & instead pick a healthier alternative based on incentive. I.e pleasant evening with my wife when I'm sober.... I will get weekend visit with my kids if I'm sober... and the goal is a cumulative effect where the person decides life is better without substances, and they want to stop, seek treatment. (Simplified explanation of course). As part of an overall strategy I think reduction can lead to abstinence.

Statistically speaking, I think recovery rates are on par with other chronic illness IF the person is given proper treatment & it meets their unique needs. Then you get into a whole range of medications that may be part of that treatment. I think a lot of people started using to self-medicate. If there is really an underlying condition and it can't be corrected with behavior modification then I think a substitute drug may be necessary ( legal and monitored by physician).

LoveMeNow

Interesting thread on this topic.

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ter-story.html

Lily1918

I believe that some addicts need suboxone, methadone, or vivitrol to stay sober.

I don't think its ok to get these meds on the street and that it should be monitored by a doctor.

Sometimes the brain chemistry has been so altered that it is just too hard to get straight cold turkey.

using these medicines does help a lot of people. Using these medicines is not abstinence, but I believe that it is recovery. The addict is no longer breaking the law.

I don't believe it is too much to ask for an addict to not do drugs and not to drink. I don't think that addicts deserve a standing ovation for being sober, telling the truth, and not stealing. These are things that are expected of all adults.

I believe that if a person has some type of mental disability, then medication is often times necessary. I believe that abstinence is impossible for my son. He needs to be medicated in order to function normally because of his autism.

Im sorry if I am rambling. I guess my answer is yes and no. Should an addict be expected to abstain from using illegal drugs and alcohol? Yes. absolutely. Should a person who has a chemical imbalance in their brain seek medical help to find balance with medication? Yes. absolutely. As long as they take the medication as prescribed, and also seek behavioral therapy.

I hope I make sense

Taking5

There are many addicts that abstinence is too high of a hurdle - most of them are incarcerated or die because of it.

Upsetnneedhelp

Pravchaw, some reason I remember your son stole Grandmas ATM card?? "Pot heads" or even social addicts do not do these things. If he just gets high on the weekend that's fine. However, your inviting trouble and the odds are stacked against him. You have very high standards regarding life. You get passed for a promotion? Your son works some "manual labor" job??? It's a different economy and a new world. I hope you look at yourself in all this.

Tinks65

My son started with weed and then went on to experiment with ecstasy, mushrooms, cocaine and various other drugs ... he did cocaine every day for a year and when a good friend of his got hooked on crack it scared him and he quit doing coke. That gave him a false sense of control. He went back to smoking a lot of weed, and occasionally doing other things. He was never a drinker. He's only been drunk maybe twice in his life. Never liked the way it made him feel. He kept a job, managed relationships with family and friends and went through life relatively unharmed. I say relatively because he got a DUI once while driving high.

Then he tried oxy.

Within months he was shooting heroin. This led him quickly down a path that ended with five felony convictions, 18 months of incarceration and 20 years of suspended time hanging over his head. Had he never done oxy would he have been able to quit the others? I don't know. I do know that he has always been able to have a beer or two and quit. When he was smoking weed, he like thousands of others could do it without serious consequences. He never abused cocaine after he decided to quit. Are there people who can abuse oxy, percocet, or any other opiate but not get hooked? My son has said he absolutely cannot "just manage" opiates. One use and he is off and running, it is never a matter of cutting back.

What is the difference between a heavy drinker and an alcoholic? I think there are many people out there who abuse drugs and alcohol to the point that it causes significant problems in their lives. This pushes them to find help and they do, many in AA, NA or other treatment centers. They find abstinence clarity and peace for their lives. I think this muddles the water for addicts and their loved ones. Why do so many find sobriety while so many others are chronic relapsers?

Kindeyes

The critical part of your question in my opinion was the underlined portion. Expectations breed contempt and resentment. Learning how to let go of expectations has been (and continues to be) a very difficult process for me but one that is important to my recovery and to my relationship with other people.

My expectations of another person is an ego based desire for them to do what I want them to do.

My focus is on controlling my own thought processes and interactions (which is tough enough).

In a recent conversation regarding my son's relapse he asked me "would it be acceptable to you if I choose to smoke pot occasionally? I don't want to do meth." My response "you are an adult, you don't need or require my validation."

My responsibility is to stay out of the way if there are consequences. Do I "approve" of him smoking pot? I ask myself........does it matter?

I'm in a weird place these days.......Nar-Anon emphasizes that we "cease trying to change them". I'm done trying to change my son. I love him. I wish he didn't want to use any substances......and I accept that it is out of my control.

My goal is to be the best person that I can be.....not to try to force my son to be the person I want him to be. I choose to strive toward serenity.....whether my son continues to use........or not.

gentle hugs
ke

pravchaw

Is this really necessary? We don't really know how addicts recover. Though many organizations and processes like to take credit for that.

We know there is something called "readiness to recover" which must come before recovery. Anybody who discovers the secret to conjure up readiness in an active addict will deserve a nobel prize (the discovery will be on scale of the discovery of penicillin and insulin).

hopeful4

Sadly, I think the answer is no. My AH is a binge drinker. He did drink much more heavily before than he has in the past couple of years. That being said, I don't believe he can actually control it. If he would go to your home and know there is alcohol there, he would drink it. HE CANNOT CONTROL IT. So he has to abstain completely.

He gets very upset because he does not think I give him credit for how much he has reduced. It is good, I know that. I also know that even if he drinks now and then it is going to lead to trauma for me in that he will act a fool and most likely cause me alot of emoational turmoil. For that reason it is not worth it for me anymore. I still love him, but I hate the emoational mess even more, so if he drinks he has to go. End of story, it is my qualifier that he be sober. If not we separate. After all of these years, I am tired of what it has done to ME. For once I am not putting him and his needs first.

My heart is with you. Hugs!