peaceofpi

How do you forgive someone when remorse and an apology are highly unlikely?

Two years ago, I was ready to forgive and go on with life with my alcoholic spouse, despite the chaos and despite the adultery I'd recently discovered. But then - whether from shame of my finding out the adultery? Hatred of me for knowing flaws? - the alcoholic (diagnosed NPD) heaped emotional and verbal abuse onto the fire, and our marriage burned down with it.

Best lessons from therapy during this time: Forgiveness without remorse is just excusing. Going to marriage counseling without the alcoholic first going into rehab is just a waste of time (and can allow the alcoholic to heap more abuse on you). It was sound advice, and if it can help anyone else in SR, please take it.

Today, I came across a great children's book about forgiveness: Desmond and the Very Mean Word by Rev. Desmond Tutu. A boy, Desmond, asks how he can forgive some boys who haven't said they're sorry.
"You don't need to wait until someone says they're sorry to forgive them. You have the power to forgive whenever you are ready," Father Trevor says. "When you forgive someone, you free yourself from what they have said or done. It's like magic."

I know my ex likely will never apologize or show remorse. With the main warfare of our divorce over, I do know I am ready to forgive and free myself. I try to be "BIFF" (brief, informative, friendly, and firm, per the excellent book Splitting) in communications about our child, but still get blaming and veiled bullying at least once or twice a week, to which I don't respond.

So I am not sure if it is forgiveness - like a full pardon - or just acceptance of the reality that the alcoholic has two diseases, one being addiction and the other being NPD/lack of empathy or remorse. It would be easier without the constant quacking. Thoughts?

lillamy

Well, first, I wonder if we were married to the same man?

Secondly -- I am here
As for "forgiving" here's the "forgiving" I've been able to get my mind to agree to:

Forgiving doesn't mean that you say "your crimes didn't mean anything or didn't have consequences, and it's OK that you committed them against me and our children." Forgiveness says "regardless of what you did, I have decided to not hold it against you and persecute you for it."

It's not a carte blanche saying "I'm going to pretend it never happened" -- if you've been bitten by a dog once, you may choose to not report it in order to prevent the dog being put down, but it doesn't mean you blot the incident from your mind and decide to snuggle with the pup the next time you see it. I can't do the Divine Forgiveness that God does.

But I can do the "I'm not going to bring the past up and smear it in your face; we're going to look forward from here."

That's probably a compromise but it's what I've been able to do.

Remorse, I don't think we can expect. Ever. So any forgiving we do (however, on whatever level) has to be based not on his insight that he did wrong but on our insight that we don't want to carry the anger around anymore.

hopeful4

I read about this for quite a while last night. What you have to remember is the forgiveness is for YOU. You are freeing yourself from the burdens you carry and the old hurt you carry from all of this. Forgiving and forgetting are not the same thing.

I too have alot to forgive and have work to do before I am truly there, but I wanted to pass on what I read. Good luck and God Bless to you!

lizatola

I worked through a book on forgiveness, mostly over some stuff my dad did or said to me. My dad had passed away the year before. He never apologized for what he said as he was so drunk, I'm sure he doesn't remember. He thought it was funny that he put me in my toy box and sat on the lid for 10 minutes while I screamed to be let out (I always wondered why I was claustrophobic until he told me he had done this, I blocked out the memory).

Anyway, I found that writing things out, vomiting all the crappy negative stuff on paper was very cathartic. The book took me through specific exercises but I'm sure that just journaling about it and maybe trying counseling would be helpful to work on for you. Letting go is FOR YOU, not for them. If you can train yourself to let go (and yes I have to train myself to do this because it doesn't come easy) then you can have peace, no matter what that person did or didn't do.

Hammer

I think folks sometimes get confused on:

1. Forgiving -- like a when someone goes bankrupt -- the debts are set to zero at the end -- but there is still not good credit . . .

AND.

2. Actual Acceptance (by the wrong-doer) of what was done. Admission of the Wrong. Apologies for the Wrong. Amends for the Wrong. And per the full Jesus 101 model -- Go Forth and Sin No More.

For most of *us* we would Love *them* all the more, but that is not how it tends to play out.

We (the Alanon side) RARELY see the second type. Unless an A is really, fully working a legit program -- do not really expect to see the second type. That is a short-hand version of Steps 4 through 9.

http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt5.pdf

As Mrs. Hammer's dad says of Mrs. Hammer -- She rarely says Thank You, and NEVER says She is Sorry.

This is not untypical of folks with Personality Disorders. Especially Cluster B:

Personality disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

To acknowledge they are wrong is a complete crush of their fragile, damaged personalities.

lillamy

[QUOTE]Forgiving -- like a when someone goes bankrupt -- the debts are set to zero at the end -- but there is still not good credit/QUOTE]
Brilliant. I had never heard that before. Thank you, Hammer Man!

NYCDoglvr

Try looking at forgiveness as letting go, which you haven't done yet. By hanging on to the drama you're letting him live rent free in your head.

peaceofpi

Thank you to everyone for the replies and memorable analogies. God bless you all!

Forgiving two years ago, without repentance (step work) or even any remorse, would just have been excusing. It would have been me trying to keep the marriage intact out of fear for our young child's safety with a drunk.

Forgiveness in the past year has been more like the process of disarmament. I've tried to put down the weapons (bitterness, grudges, resentments, revenge, persecution, anger) and lay down the alcoholic rope (responding when the inevitable drama/bullying begins with the NPD/Cluster B alcoholic).

I'm trying to work on a more compassion-like forgiveness, e.g., "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and "he can deal gently with the ignorant and misguided, since he himself also is beset with weakness." I am beginning to deliberately set aside time to think of my ex-spouse with kindness and think of positive traits; I know I likely wouldn't do this if we didn't have a child. I say positive words about the other parent to our child: "You're going to have fun! I'm glad you're excited. That sounds like a yummy dinner!"

Positive thinking gets difficult, though, when a new drama ensues and the ex-spouse twists facts and tees up our child to be mad at me. Sigh. A new game, with the rope twined around a child's neck. Even more reason to not pick up the rope.

I have the power to forgive, the power to be kind, and the power to free myself from anything someone else has said or done. I can spit out the bitter to avoid the poison. Hopefully I can teach these lessons to my child and others, to help them become resilient and happy (and non Cluster B!) people.

LifeRecovery

I read a book that helped a lot, because it gave me the option of not forgiving. That opened up a world of choices for me, because at the time I was beating myself up because I could not forgive yet. Actually I still can't, though I am in a much closer place to it.

It is by Janis Abrahms Spring who specialize in affair work (which was part of what I was struggling with), but her book "How Can I Forgive You, and the Freedom Not To," was not affair specific.

It talks about four types of "forgiveness" one of which was what I had usually done, forgiven without a lot of change from the other person coming, and heaping blame and shame upon myself. It just helped.

I also did a book on grief (The Grief Recovery Book) which was very helpful in getting some of this hammered out for me.

I am 3.5 years out, and I have not yet forgiven, BUT I am taking care of myself and working on this. I learned that forgiveness is not a one time act but a letting go in pieces which I am not quite ready for, but much more ready for then I was some time ago.

Flicka57

Hammer:
So perfectly said--I am posting that on the fridge to remind me what forgiveness is all about! Thank you!

allysen

I like this description from the Al-Anon book, Courage to Change,

"Instead of thinking of (forgiveness) as an eraser to wipe another’s slate clean or a gavel that I pound to pronounce someone “not guilty,” I think of forgiveness as a scissors. I use it to cut the strings of resentment that bind me to a problem or a past hurt. By releasing resentment, I set myself free."

It means you aren't going to let the past continue to harm you. It means you aren't going to continue to be angry and bitter over past wrongs. It means YOU are moving on. Sounds like the same message that children's book you read has.

peaceofpi

Thank you LifeRecovery and allysen for the book recommendations. I like the scissors analogy.

NWGRITS

That was our topic in meeting two weeks ago. The analogy stuck with me (and I think many in our group).

HealingWillCome

Many years ago, my xah left me and our three young children for a girl half his age. I struggled with forgiveness for many years after that.

Looking back...I wanted so badly for him to accept responsibility. To say he was sorry. To acknowledge the deep pain and upheaval he had caused in our family. But, now I realize that even if he had apologized, accepted responsibility for all of his wrongdoings and the pain he caused, etc., I don't think I would have been able to forgive. It wouldn't have changed my circumstances. I was hurting deeply over the rejection. I was working two jobs, running a household by myself, trying to raise three babies alone, and for a long time I didn't make time to truly work on my myself, to work on my emotional and abandonment issues that had allowed me to marry an alcoholic in the first place. The forgiveness had to come from an authentic place within me.

Everyone here has said it well...forgiveness is for yourself. Like the saying goes (I've seen it credited to a lot of people, so I'm not sure who said it first): "Holding a grudge is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other person to die."

The key for me was finding my own healing. Once I was able to do that, I was able to completely forgive my xah. I still don't believe that any of his behaviors were acceptable...but I have accepted the hand that I was dealt, and I have moved on.

He and I get along just fine now. We can have a conversation and agree, disagree, laugh, discuss our now young-adult and teenage children, and I don't hold any grudges toward him. He is still an alcoholic, getting progressively worse. He is miserably married to the girl he left us for. You might think their miserable marriage brings me satisfaction, but truthfully, it doesn't. I guess because I worry about myself now and not how others are living their lives. My happiness is determined by me and how I choose to respond to circumstances in my life.

One other thought on forgiveness...education about addiction was key for me also. Being part of the SR family has helped me to learn forgiveness. Education...knowledge...is so powerful. Understanding the sickness of addiction has helped me to separate the alcoholic/addict from the demon. I hate the illness, but not the person. It has been easier for me to forgive all of the A's in my life because of what I have learned here at SR.

I wish you the best, peaceofpi, and pray that you'll find your forgiveness sooner than later. It's a peaceful place to be.