stella27

What are the trademarks of non-addictive, non-abusive relationships? I feel at a loss because I don't know what normal really is. All I have experienced while being married to an AH with bipolar and a porn addiction and a big dose of narcissism was alienation and abuse.

RhodeIsland

Mutual respect, both in actions and words is the base, the foundation of a good relationship. Mutual attraction, though this can diminish with age and at a point, it works for some that the romantic relationship turns into companionship, sense of belonging, and a deep caring for each other.

It is not perfect in terms of wonderful small talk all the time, nor an appreciation of the same kind of movies, politics, or even some values* (if these values do not interfere with the relationship. It is caring about how the other person feels. It is both parties making reasonable sacrifices reach a harmonious relationship. It is appreciating stable, loving partners and not acting under impulse at another that seems more interesting and attractive.

Please realize his verbal abuse was not provoked by you being you. Suffering abuse can lead to feeling a unrealistic, low self worth. Evaluate who you are, and work to fix what you want to change. Not what he's used as mortar to abuse you. Are you still in this relationship?

RobbyRobot

I think good relationships look broadly weathered and yet bright and warmly respectful of the players. Working relationships look like they are working towards each players benefit - without an air of exclusivity or servitude towards either player.

Working relationships look like they have an inherent energy all their own - like as if at the worst of times the essential goodness of the relationship protects and preserves its own - no one is expendable.

I do know for myself coming from a dysfunctional and abusive childhood a good healthy working relationship looks like a miracle.

blackandblue

The opposite of what I just went through for the last 4 years.

stella27

Thanks, RI.

No, I'm out now for four years. I have 3 young children and so I haven't dated much since leaving the marriage. I do have a lot of male friends and I have healthy family members and friends in happy relationships. I just feel ill-equipped to recognize the good stuff, or to be able to tell it from the not-exactly or the something's-really-wrong-here.

I know that it wasn't my fault he was abusive, but when I was in it, I felt like I had screwed something up and that was why he was always angry with me. Still, the verbal and emotional abuse and alienation and stonewalling conspired to make me unsure of myself in many male-female interactions.

amy55

stella,

I'm right there with you. I have been away from my EXAH for almost 4 years. I have plenty of friends, both male and female. Have not been in a relationship since I left my ex. I'm pretty sure that I can pick up on red flags now, what I have problems with are my "triggers". After being in an abusive relationship I am very unsure of myself. You always feel like you need to think of the "right answer". Just a question of "where would you like to go for dinner", this just makes me crazy. My mind goes a mile a minute, trying to think of what kind of food the other people like, did they just have pizza or chinese recently. Should I just say something like fast food because it is not too expensive. or ..... "What would you like to do today"? It would be like, what!!!!!!! Why did you have to ask me that. My trigger on these is that I would start to think that I was in a "no win" situation.

I don't know if you still have these feelings or reactions, but I am also very interested to the answers in this post.

RhodeIsland

Are you currently in a relationship?

When dating, I feel it is best to keep things open and see other people. I don't mean be promiscuous, but make it clear early on exclusivity is not what you're looking for. I've seen it with a number of women, including some in my own family jump back into a relationship or settle down quickly into unhealthy relationships. I don't know what is is, but it seems women who are in abusive relationships attract, or perhaps the men sense those who it's possible to abuse. I'm not sure I'd even share that the ex was an A/manipulative to potential mates - the manipulative among, or those with alcoholic tendencies will mask their behavior.

After a date, you should feel attractive, confident, intelligent, and those first 3 dates going great can happen with a lot of men. It is important not to box yourself into a relationship. Even when exclusive, I think it's a mistake to cohabitate without a long term of dating for a number of reasons, not least of which are if children are involved. It also gives the other side a chance to show their true colors - controlling (ie rush to move in / "get you off the market"). Experience the market, that is a good thing! It's your chance to find someone who is willing to exchange the highest amount equal amount of love and respect with you!

What I'm trying to say here is that a lot of men are manipulative, suck, and all that. But don't get to the point the can get away with it without manipulation first. On the other hand, there are a lot of good men out there. Which means after a few date a guy seems great, and wonderful and what could be wrong, well, there are more men out there like that too. So keep it open. I think women making it clear dates are not exclusive (even after 10 dates) helps keep the crazies away. However, I would recommend going in 1/2 /every other on an date expenditures. Reduces the guilt and breaking it off, and sets the ground that "I see myself as an equal"

RhodeIsland

Dates, if near an area with a nice downtown can be as simple as walking and coffee. Good for the health, and the exercise reduces anxiety, and cheap/free.
edit: Museums too.

It's all about conversation, feeling a person out, and feeling comfortable.

stella27

I'm not in an exclusive relationship now. I have a lot of male friends and I do go out with some of them, but it seems more platonic. On the other hand, I'm not sure how I would know. That's what I mean when I say I feel kind of at a loss about what normal relationships are like.

Co-habitating isn't going to be an option due to my children's living at home with me. They are young - elementary school, and I would never want to allow them to get too attached to a man I'm not married to.

I like what you said about how after a good date, a woman should feel attractive, confident and intelligent. That's a pretty good indicator of having been noticed.

RhodeIsland

well, I can't edit the post, 15 minute limit, so here is what I had wrote I had added.

After a date, you should feel attractive, confident, intelligent. Whether the first or the 50th, this should remain a constant. you should feel listened to. you should feel safe. It should feel free of negativity. the good stuff can be awkward at times, it can be fun, it can feel right. What makes it good is the consistent respect and appreciation, a respect for boundaries, and for beliefs.

When the putdowns, insults, or even disregarding your ideas or feelings starts, that isn't an "off day" It is a sign of things to come.

For the men you are unsure whether seeing them is platonic or not - I'd ask. Ask the ones you're interested in. It clarifies for both parties if seeing each other is strictly platonic, or something more. And it's no slight against you if the want it to remain platonic.

Tuffgirl

Although I understand the point being made here - I have to weigh in and say a woman should feel attractive, confident, and intelligent before a date, and after a date, because she feels this way all the time and doesn't look to others, men or women, to validate her and her self worth.

If you feel this way- you naturally develop strong boundaries and little emotional attachments to dating, because you are looking for a high value man to compliment your high value sense of self. If a date goes badly, its a learning lesson and goes no further than that. If it ends well, you feel happy but if he never calls again, so be it. If after 5 dates, you decide he's not the one, that's ok. You know there are plenty of other fish in this sea, and you refuse to settle for less than just to be in a relationship with a warm body.

To me, a healthy relationship is based on mutual respect, shared values, and a willingness to weather the day-to-day challenges that life brings. To be emotionally present. And to live with a high level of integrity in the relationship, i.e. my words and my actions match and vice-versa.

And for what its worth - I didn't date much when my kids were young, because of the very reasons mentioned already. And I have no regrets about that. Probably one of the wiser decisions I've made over the years!

funkynassau

I've been married to a great guy for 30 years. He is honest, loyal, devoted, trustworthy and a good friend. He's funny and smart and clever. He treats me like gold and I treat him the same. He doesnt run around, has never had a girlfriend on the side (I'd know if he did) and he has a beer now and again and usually one at a restaurant. He's a good guy, I know he loves me and I love him.

I couldnt put up with a drinker or a drunk. I did have a friend who'd been a drunk for 30+ years, long before I met him. I ditched him after just over a year because I could not take his constant state of being hammered and refusing AA or anything else that could help.

I knew the beauty of a good relationship before this guy came along and I treasure it now. I'm not worried about my husband going off the rails.

I came here looking for advice about my alcoholic friend and I have learned a lot here, and I am thankful for the advice I have been given. We all owe it to ourselves to get away from the drunk in our lives and continue to move forward with the help of friends and relatives and Al Anon. Nobody needs to live with an alcoholic of any sort and I'm glad I bailed before it got worse.

BookNerd

*sighs dreamily* That sounds lovely, funkynassau. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who read that and felt maybe a wee bit jealous. I wonder what it feels like to be treated like gold...

NYCDoglvr

Trust and respect aren't part of a toxic alcoholic/codie relationship but they define healthy ones.

funkynassau

Book nerd I used to not believe in myself, I had a big inferiority complex and thought I didnt deserve anything good in life. My mother was the driving force behind my lack of self esteem. Long story. Anyway I had a bad first marriage and after I left him I was on my own for a while then I started dating my now husband. At first I thought he was just using me, I didnt trust him or myself. But I figured it out, and let myself love him and he in turn loved me. Even now, all this time later, I wonder how I got this lucky. I dont really know, right place at the right time maybe. I've learned to feel good about myself, tho it did take a while.

I never get used to being treated like gold; he is just a really nice guy. They are out there, dont settle for crap, believe in yourself and keep looking for that special guy. Settling is the worst thing a person can do - been there done that.

stella27

"At first I thought he was just using me, I didnt trust him or myself. But I figured it out, and let myself love him and he in turn loved me. Even now, all this time later, I wonder how I got this lucky. I dont really know, right place at the right time maybe. I've learned to feel good about myself, tho it did take a while."

This kind of describes the way I feel in relation to my gentleman friend. I keep telling myself that he needs me for this or that. I don't know how to tell if he is lonely or if he really "likes me" likes me.

Your posts are inspiring. Thank you.

funkynassau

Thanks Stella. Have you actually talked to your gentleman friend about your relationship and how he feels about you? Asking questions is a good way to find out.

My husband wasnt lonely when he met me, he was a total car guy, wrapped up in his British cars and was a good mechanic when I met him. A short while after we started going out he told me that he was so wrapped up in his cars that he didnt know he wanted to have a girlfriend He was about 23 at the time, I was 24.

From that time on he's been with me and with his cars! There's room for everybody it seems! We have a solid relationship built on trust and love and give and take. We almost never argue, we just get along really well.

Talk with your fella! You could be pleasantly surprised at what he says.

Lulu39

I don't know!

I think some trademarks might be: (I've bolded the important bits, the rest are just my typical, codie, crazy, passive aggressive nasty b*tch bits )

If you are sick he stays with you instead of going to the bar.

If there is something important to do, like paperwork for the mortgage or say paperwork for him to appeal being sacked from a job, then he sticks around to complete it before the deadline rather than saying "You finish it, I have to go to the bar" when there is 30 minutes before the thing has to be submitted and then getting mad with you because you couldn't finish it without his signature and so it never got submitted. All my fault those times...

He doesn't get sacked from jobs for being late, faking sick or showing up drunk too many times and expect you to pay his way. (Can't believe I did this over and over and over again).

For your birthday he buys you something he knows you love, rather than a REALLY expensive set of skincare (before giving it to you he DEMANDS that "You'd better not complain about this, I spent a heap of money on it") and when you open it you can see he must have been drunk when he bought it because it's very expensive skincare for MEN!

When you ask for help he doesn't say "later" or "I'll do it tomorrow".

You know if your car breaks down you can call him and he'll come to help rather than saying "Leave it there and get a cab, I'll do something about it tomorrow" - tomorrow never comes, so you end up doing it all by yourself.

If he is "fixing" something in the house he finishes the job. He doesn't leave one kitchen cupboard unpainted and not attached. He takes off the masking tape from where he drunkenly finished "painting".

He doesn't DEMAND you go to dinner with him on a Saturday night when he is blind drunk and then launch into a tirade about how mean and unsociable you are when you politely decline his invitation.

He can find, apply for, attend interviews for and get his jobs on his own without your "help".

At social gatherings he will NOT deliberately embarrass you and say things like: "I know when you have your period because if I use the bathroom after you I can tell because your lingering pee smell smells disgusting" - that time all I could do was like OMG, I felt like launching into a discussion about the foul odours and stains alcoholics leave behind after their liquid bowel movements but, I was just too stunned to say or do anything.

At your father's wake, when all your work friends are there, he doesn't bang on and on about how it was so nice to see his photo amongst the other family photos shown at the funeral (truth be told, it was a nice photo and to blank his stupid head out of the photo would have ruined it, so I let that one go through). Can't find anything wise to bold in this one, except perhaps he doesn't come to your father's wake: arrive drunk, crack a beer before the service, drink all the beers he brought with him in his little backpack and then start drinking the drinks I put on and paid for for the guests.

At your father's wake, when all your work friends are there, he doesn't try to make it all about him by trying to play the piano LOUDLY or the drums LOUDLY. I was in the bathroom when he started and was about to run through the house with my pants down to make him STFU. My brother and another male friend made him STFU and then the male friend took him home to his hovel apartment as per our prior agreement.

I still don't know what a non abusive relationship looks like. As far as I can tell, for me, I'll know it when I see it and he will stick around because he cares more about me than alcohol or me paying for the alcohol (the mortgage, the cars, all the bills etc.).

BookNerd

Wow, Lulu! I feel for you, having had to endure that. I guess you certainly do know now what a good relationship does NOT look like!

I was thinking of this thread last night laying in bed, and I thought to myself - I think a good relationship would be one in which each person involved thought equally of themselves and the other person. That is, they both put the other person first some of the time, and their own self first some of the time. Both partners would be equally important.

In my own marriage, it's been so hard because he always put himself first, and ignored my feelings, and I always put him first too, and ignored my needs. It's been extremely unbalanced and unhealthy. One person should not be more important than another.

MsPINKAcres

Before, during and after my divorce ~ I asked my HP to change me.
I knew that I had a horrible track record in the relationship department and it wasn't always the guy's fault ~ it was about "who" I was attracted to. And I didn't even know why or how it turned out that way.

if I wanted something different I had to do something different.

I spent a lot of time working on ME ~ learning to be ok with just me and my HP.

I prayed for discernment, for the ability to really see the Red Flags this time and to be honest with myself.

It was a total change for me and it helped me to recognize some of my patterns and do things differently.

and apparently my HP & Mr. Pink's HP got together and worked this thing out - because somehow, some way - we found each other thru old circumstances at a chance meeting ~

Our relationship isn't perfect, but it's perfect for us ~ he gives where I need him to and I give where he needs me to ~ it's the beauty of two people working together for a mutually beneficial goal ~ at almost 50 yrs old this is the first time I have had this in my life and I am extremely grateful for the gift.

Don't give up ~ if it can happen for me - it can happen for you ~ follow your HP's leading
miracles can happen ~ I pinch myself daily because I can't believe I'm living one ~

pink hugs to all