wpainterw

Many folks might agree that, in the early stages of recovery, there is a need for structure, discipline, direction, humility, sometimes described as “tough love”. This seems wise in view of what has usually happened to the body and brain as a result of heavy and prolonged drinking and drugging. The body chemistry and physiology have changed to depend on alcohol and the more primitive parts of the brain, such as the “midbrain”, exert an enormous influence over the alcoholic’s distorted thinking. The recovering alcoholic needs direction and leadership to start to get out of this mess. Alcoholics Anonymous provides that structure, with its Twleve Steps, Twelve Traditions and Sponsorship. Can this be available to agnostics or atheists without an emphasis on “God” as a “Higher Power”? And must one believe that the exclusive “causes” of alcoholism are “character defects”, which only a “Higher Power” must remove?
Taking the “cause” aspect first, perhaps the “cause” of alcoholism can be more simply stated. Alcholism is “caused” by the drinking of alcohol. And, if one drinks enough of that you will developing lots of character defects, like lying cheating, stealing, drunk driving, etc., and end up like a child screaming for its bottle. Beyond that, perhaps the important thing is not to speculate further about the “cause” but turn to the question of what to do about it.
So to get out of the mess sometimes a person may need a bit of “tough love” and, even though not believing in a conventional “God”, can still get direction, structure, guidance and humility by following a benevolent and firm counselor, who can also be a friend and companion, helping in times of crisis and uncertainty. Hopefully a counselor or sponsor can be found who is willing to provide some "tough love" without insisting that the only way to sobriety is reliance on God. One can also get help from folks at meetings, watch their progress, get tips from them and benefit from the experience of those who have longer sobriety. This can be supplemented by ideas from other programs, like Rational Recovery with its emphasis on AVRT, the concepts of which are not necessarily inconsistent with AA when broadly construed.

W.

dwtbd

I don't know about what 'most folks' would agree on, but if this attitude is theirs then I am not one of them.

About three weeks ago I had 'enough' as the saying goes. Looking back just getting to point of realizing enough was enough was the earliest stage of my recovery. Finding this site which then lead me to finding out about Rational Recovery and AVRT(thank you Al Gore for your invention of the 'net) and taking the free crash course was my second step in recovery. I ended my addiction/physical dependency to alcohol, not a very comfortable few days. I have since become more familiar with AVRT and am using it to stay recovered. The discipline came from me, the stucture , humility and all the rest came from me. Whatever I do going foward(Onward!) will come from me, it has to be this way. I don't think I am an exception that 'proves the rule' , I just think most folks don't know enough for me to trust them.

Mirage74

I think it's important to be diligent and find what works for you. If it is keeping you sober, then keep doing what it is you're doing.

wpainterw

dwtdb wrote:"I don't know about what 'most folks' would agree on, but if this attitude is theirs then I am not one of them."
My actual wording was not "most folks" but "Many folks might agree".
That's great you've succeeded thus far. If it works for you then that's just what you should do.

W.

UnixBer

Interesting thread wpainterw. Even if alcohol was never invented, people would propably always still have these so called "character defects" and turn to overeating or other drugs. In my honest opinion if any such character defects do exist and are problematic, then there is always a way to transmute or fix them without the need of any higher power. That is one thing.

Secondly, if this higher power is now a completely new thing to us as we let's say enter AA.. wouldn't it take years of practise to be able to wield it somehow sufficiently? Or would a simple consideration of it with a desire and prayer do? I have the kind of feeling that what would be such a power, would require quite some training in order to use it effectively. That's just me though.

"Tough love" is propably sometimes the best, even when it is unintended, sort of by accident.. what it results in ultimately, is what matters then.

I think God is often addressed here since many people are thought about God since their childhood and it gives people hope and something to lean on when they feel weak. It can have at least a psychological advantage this way no matter what the viewpoint. And well, I do not think God needs to be involved with recovery in order for it to be completely successful in all areas including healing of the mind. Imo it a word used too often in such contexts (the word 'God') that it has lost its true meaning long ago and is now made into an entity and so on.

And it is most likely all about those bodily changes that alcohol use has caused... and the behaviours that have compassed addiction as mentioned "crying for the bottle like a baby". That is true. I think counseling can work for some just as well as group-therapy such as AA for some. For that matter, I think support is invaluable, however not in all cases entirely needed.

wakko

Excellent stuff and I wholeheartedly agree. The true test of any program is does it work. Not for days or months but for years and decades and most importantly a lifetime. The single scariest thing about alcoholism to me is how it had changed my thinking. I was absolutely convinced that I was right when in reality I was totally wrong. I could not have made it without the structure, the hand holding, the guidance of people with long-term sobriety, and yes the tough love.

jazzfish

I think the structure of the AA program can be very helpful. Looking at the steps, they provide specific actions, a life purpose, and a way to begin rebuilding self-esteem and responsibility. Many alcoholics usually in need of help in all three of these areas when they are at the point of quitting.

As for the higher power, I think it can be a useful tool for managing our thinking. I do not find the concept of a benevolent being "out there" wanting to help me any more irrational than thinking there is beast or a lizard inside my head trying to make me drink. I've also never heard of anyone being able to "turn it over" to God and get out of having to do the actual work.

There is no magic in the solution. Don't drink and find the tools that help keep your thinking in order. I find the support of a group to be very beneficial to keeping me motivated and accountable, as well as a great source of "tough love" and experience on living sober.

IOAA2

Great post!
"The body chemistry and physiology have changed to depend on alcohol and the more primitive parts of the brain, such as the “midbrain”, exert an enormous influence over the alcoholic’s distorted thinking. The recovering alcoholic needs direction and leadership to start to get out of this mess. Alcoholics Anonymous provides that structure, with its Twleve Steps, Twelve Traditions and Sponsorship. Can this be available to agnostics or atheists without an emphasis on “God” as a “Higher Power”? And must one believe that the exclusive “causes” of alcoholism are “character defects”, which only a “Higher Power” must remove?"

I believe my character defects developed from the time I was crawling on the floor watching/observing what was going on around me on a daily basis. Neither of my parents were even light drinkers. My observations were absorbed and came out as fear, anger, control, insecurity and on and on. These in themselves didn’t make me an alcoholic however when alcohol was introduced to me I liked the effects on these fears by reducing them which led to drinking more as time progressed. In going to AA I eventually got on my knees and asked for help in stopping drinking. I was not nor am today a religious person however I have a higher power which I feel has protected me from using alcohol and pointing me to stay in AA for RECOVERY which has resulted in +30 years sober/dry. In my case these defects are not gone and every aspect of my life is not wonderful. Life is life and I learned to accept it without escaping to alcohol or drugs one day at a time.
Many in this generation don’t like Tough love, fine, I didn’t either and continued drinking for 2 years because as was said “your misery is refundable if you don’t like How our way works.” Today I’m in the tough love camp as I’m in pain when I read and see in person so many doing what I did to no avail, until they surrender to the beasts.

Threshold

I am in 12 step. I am an atheist. "God" is not my HP. Character defects...yup, I have them, like the magical thinking that something from the outside booze, pills, food, sex, cutting or suicide is going to fix my life. That's one of them. I need something to free me from THAT pattern. As well as many others, like living from a place of fear, etc. My HP is Sobriety. Sobriety in all it's aspects frees me from living those wronky thoughts that F'd up my life.

Not everyone needs that. There are many ways. That IS the program of 12 step, for people who need it and want to follow that program. If a person doesn't need that method and structure, then 12 step isn't the program for them. People can be court ordered to attend meetings, but even then they are not forced to DO the program. Only an individual can make that choice for themselves.

There are atheist, agnostic, secular and every other stripe of 12 step program out there if the language of the Big Book is a stumbling block. It was for me.

AA/12 step is what it is. No harm, no foul. If it isn't attractive or doesn't work for some people no one is going to force them to do it. People who have found AA didn't work for them, went on and started other programs for people like themselves. LOTS of options.

littlefish

It's my impression that it is not stated that way in the literature. The most consistent reference to the cause of alcoholism, when discussed in the big book, is the the allergy to alcohol. The character defects are usually described as behaviors we have that pose a hindrance to recovery. Just my take on it.

wpainterw

It's nice that we can discuss this issue so calmly and helpfully. My view is that not everyone needs or can benefit from so called "tough love". But it may help some in the earliest stages of recovery. Some people in AA can provide that but there is always the risk of upsetting or alienating agnostics or atheists. The point I was trying to make is that providing structure, direction and loving guidance need not involve insisting on a commitment to a particular God or to any God at all. It is that some people who suffer from this illness may have a better chance of long term recovery if they are able to start out with some guidance instead of having to go it alone, all by themselves. Allow me to use a metaphor. I have seen a video of a particularly talented rock climbing specialist climbing the North face of the Eiger in Switzerland by "free climbing", solo, that is by himself, without a rope. He made it in record time. But anyone who knows about the Eiger knows that it has been notorious for killing people. There are many climbers who still live today because they had a rope, the support of other climbers, some of them with considerable experience. If they believed in a God that might have helped them too but who would say that only a belief in God could get you to the top of the Eiger?

W.

dwtbd

I too like calm and helpful discussions.

You mention AA, is there a point in 'recovery' when a person is no longer in need of participating or practising( if that is the correct term).

This is an honest question, not trying to bait or goad anyone into an argument.

IOAA2

For the most part we are not cured only recovering alcoholics. After a period of time in AA I find I need, along with most others in the fellowship, continued maintenance meetings as it’s often said our dis-ease is always waiting for us to lose focus on our non drinking needs. Meetings are a social outlet for some and a guide in their lives because being human we have a tendency to forgot the pain that caused us to get sober. It’s very often told how drinking after years of sobriety takes off very quickly to the point of where we stopped drinking and worse.

dwtbd

Isn't that a dreadful way to live, or view life?

That is the impression I have , that that is what it's like and the reason I never wanted to go, even though I thought it was the only way

NoelleR

"...Alcoholics Anonymous provides that structure, with its Twleve Steps, Twelve Traditions and Sponsorship. Can this be available to agnostics or atheists without an emphasis on “God” as a “Higher Power”? And must one believe that the exclusive “causes” of alcoholism are “character defects”, which only a “Higher Power” must remove?..."

I got recovered in a group of atheists within AA. Believe me, there was NO emphasis on "God" as "Higher Power" and nowhere in AA (neither in the literature nor from any other recovered AA's) does it say anything, or did I hear anything, about "character defects" being the exclusive "causes," of alcoholism. I never heard that characters were even a small part of the cause of alcoholism.........sorry

(o:
NoelleR

Mirage74

There are alcoholics with 20-30 years of sobriety who still go to meetings and participate in AA. There is no rule that says you have to. They continue to go because they enjoy the fellowship and it reminds them what it was like when they were still drinking. They enjoy being around other people they can relate to, other alcoholics. They also go to spread the message to newcomers who want to get sober but don't know how to. According to the Big book, the number one way to stay sober is to work/talk with another alcoholic who is struggling. If you think about it, it is the same premise behind SR, even though SR doesn't endorse AA.

Eddiebuckle

I am an alcoholic, and from what I understand of the disease and have witnessed first hand in my immediate family and working with others in recovery, I don't think I can ever drink again without either quickly spiraling out of control or having to put a tremendous amount of energy to control my urge to have "just one more."

My experience is that character defects are the manifestation of my ego when it is left to run the show. I did not drink because of my "character defects", but after a certain point in my drinking career, the two became so intertwined as to be both cause and effect of the other. Regardless, without outside guidance, tough or otherwise, I was not capable of seeing how distorted my thinking had become. That distortion of reality, of the space where my actions and those of the world around me intersected, is where I began to see the distinction between abstinence and sobriety.

AA does not require belief in a deity, though many in the fellowship use that perspective as the foundation of their program. Others are able to give up drinking without working with other alcoholics or working the 12 steps. But for those who are unable to quit on their own through other means, AA and the 12 steps offer a way out. The fact that they are unable to quit through the alternatives does not mean the alternatives don't work, it just means the alternatives don't work for them.

The fact is this: you have to work your recovery harder than the disease works to thwart it. The later in it's progression one starts, the harder it is to stay sober. For some of us, anything less than "tough love" is simply inadequate.

dwtbd

I would agree that in the early days, weeks on quitting drinking, there seems to be theraputic bebefits to fellowship and sharing.
And I found myself to be more emotional, perhaps from the years of cutting off of most, if not all emotional responses.
But things like SR(fantastic site gratetful for its existence) are for those things and that the reliance or theraputic value will diminish with time.
At least I hope this is the case, I certainly do not want to be obssessed with concepts like alcoholic, recovery ect for the rest of my life. I have other interests and want to use my time in pursuit of them.
People who no longer struggle with but now can just enjoy their sobriety and wish to help others attain that goal are fantastic, and I am grateful for those here who welcomed me, truly.
But I guess to paraphrase Groucho Marx's line, I do not want to be a 'lifetime' member of a club that would have me as a member.

Mark75

Good question.

Tough love frequently blows up in my face. Probably because I don't how to do it right, LOL... In fact, I am pretty sure.

I think it depends who one is working with. I can't make somebody not drink. I can't make someone spiritually awake, heck, a lot of days I am not as awake as I should be myself!

Honest feedback, helping another sometimes means pointing out that what they are doing may not be working for them, and having them consider doing something else. Maybe I can offer my own experience, mistakes and success. And honest feedback sometimes can hurt another's feelings, especially if they are caught in the grips of the tyranny of self centeredness and ego. If that's tough love, well, then, when done with love and kindness... I am all for it.

visch1

"But I guess to paraphrase Groucho Marx's line, I do not want to be a 'lifetime' member of a club that would have me as a member."

For me it's far better than looking up at the grass roots or the continued pain involved in continued drinking or the horrendous death process of alcoholism. Being honest with myself and being comfortable in my own skin is a reward beyond what I ever thought would be available to me. True many have other priorities and will go their way hopefully remembering the path back if needed. BE WELL