ArniesMama

I first want to say I am so thankful that I came across these forums. What a HUGE help and comfort they must be to all that come here and that can relate and seek support, help, comfort and friendship in all aspects of their journey, whether it be a personal one or a friend or family member.

I am the mother of a soon to be (later this month) 34 year old son. Without going into detail this first post, I will cut to the chase and say, he has been for 2 weeks (yesterday) clean and sober...recovering from both alcohol and drug addiction. The alcohol being the primary source since it is when he is drinking that the urges for the coke etc. come. BUT, he is also a daily "weed" smoker...pretty much high all of his waking life.

He has decided to quit, and we are here to offer all the support we can, to help him accomplish this. We told him we would be here for him, but that he had to come to us asking for help, when he was ready, and he did reach out. He has reached out and fallen in the past, lasting only a few days in detox before walking out. Once a few years back, another just very recently. It was the "binge" after walking out this last time that made him see how badly he needed help, and scared him enough to come looking for it.

Here is where I am having a problem in understanding what to expect. He is in severe psychosis and has severe paranoia. It was that pretty much, that finally had him reach out to us for help...he is truly scared for his life. He truly feels that he is being hunted, and that all kinds of people/forces are watching his every move, waiting around every corner to get him. It is especially bad when he has an appointment, because they "they" know he has to be in a specific location at a specific time, and they will be there for him.

The doctor says it is normal for the style of life he has lived for over half his life already, and he is on two types of (low dose) meds. We would love to have him attend a wonderful rehab facility, but it is an "open door" facility in a city far away, and he is very scared about it. He said that he will just disappear, and they will just tell us he walked out, and we'll never know the truth that they took him. It's like he feels the entire world is in a conspiracy of some sort to "get him", and the only people he can fully trust are his family. It is very hard to see him like this, and we are trying to work through it. It seems the ideal place to help him through this, would be that rehab center where they have just about everything you can imagine, in the way of things to do, as well as counciling etc. for all types of disorders and addictions. The problem is, how we can convince him to go there, that he needs that help they can offer, not only for his addictions, but for his mental well-being as well. The doc said it would be a good 30 days before we started to see improvement.

My question/concern that I am asking all of you that have experienced similar situations is, how do you know if it is indeed a temporary thing, or a permanent thing, maybe brought on by "bad" drugs? How long did you/your loved one exhibit this type of behavior after going clean and sober??

Thank you in advance.

Tuffgirl

Welcome, Arnie'sMama. I don't have this kind of experience, but did want to extend a warm welcome to you.

What I am very familiar with is bi-polar disorder, and what you describe sounds similar to that or a schizophrenia-type mental disorder. My loved ones who have severe bi-polar will get very paranoid during the manic phases, and drink to self medicate. But the disorder is the main diagnosis, not the alcohol abuse.

Does he act this way when not under the influence of any substances? Or is it brought about when under the influence?

For you and your family, Al-Anon (and Nar-Anon) may be good resources. Check out meeting dates and locations here: http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/how-to-find-a-meeting

Keep reading and keep coming back!
~T

LexieCat

Yeah, Tuffgirl voiced my thoughts. While paranoid delusions aren't uncommon during withdrawal (as in, the first week or two at most), and they are also common when abusing CERTAIN drugs, what you are describing sounds more like schizophrenia. I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist, but I have had to educate myself a bit because of my former job as a prosecutor. I've known hundreds of alcoholics and drug addicts, many with SEVERE addictions, but none of them hallucinated as a normal part of recovery (past the acute detox stage).

I think he would benefit from an in-depth evaluation by a psychiatrist. You can have schizophrenia or another mental illness and still recover from an addiction. There are rehabs that specialize in this kind of "dual diagnosis."

Seren

Hello ArniesMama, and Welcome!!

You will find SoberRecovery to be wonderful place for support and shared experience.

My stepson is an alcoholic, crack addict, and polysubstance abuser currently in recovery. He is 32. He has detoxed in a hospital twice now, and the hallucinations and paranoia lasted about 36 hours and began about 24 hours after his admission. I have to agree with the others so far--I hope your son will agree to a complete physical and psychological evaluation.

Sending hugs and prayers for you and your son.

wolfpackfan45

Hi ArniesMama. My 22 year old son is a recovering alcoholic. He also suffers from generalized anxiety disorder, depression, and panic attacks. When he hit his bottom he was away at college. He called an ambulance. They told us that he was screaming that someone was trying to get him. It went away as soon as they detoxed him overnight in the hospital. We brought him home to our house where he stayed for several months. He had nightmares for several weeks, but nothing too awful. He never mentioned the hallucinations again and is fine. The alcohol caused his anxiety to spiral out of control. On the other hand, my nephew was found hiding behind a dumpster in his boxers in the snow. He was hiding from the people who were out to hurt him. He had been telling my sister for months that someone was trying to get him in his dorm. He named the guy and what he looked like. After she got a call from the hospital psych ward she went to talk to the university too. There was no one by that name or appearance in the dorm. My nephew had a complete psych eval and he's bipolar with schizophrenic episodes. The alcohol and drugs he was taking at school exacerbated his symptoms. He had a mental illness and the substances were self medications. You all need to get to the bottom of what your son's problem really is.Did the alcohol/drugs come first, or the mental issues? It makes a big difference in how they treat the addiction. He needs a complete evaluation by a psychiatrist. If he has a diagnosed mental illness then they need to treat that in addition to the addiction. Otherwise He'll just go back to self medicating.

ArniesMama

Thanks to all for your warm welcomes and replies. On one of our trips to the ER with him at the end of May, the doctor on call, just a general practitioner, thought he showed signs of bi-polar, and it was him that prescribed the first meds, Quetiapine. There was also a crisis worker called in that same night, and after speaking to our son, he felt he showed signs of ADD/ADHD. I sort of found more sense in that one, since even though, by the time ADD and ADHD had become "popular" as a diagnosis, our son had already left home, but I can remember hearing the "signs" they spoke of in the diagnosises, and saying to myself, "Wow, that is just like our son". Growing up, he acted just as they described, only at that time, this disorder was not "out there". Anyway, our son refused to fill the prescription, and so it sat here. I was really hoping that they would see the side to him that we saw, and force him to be evaluated/assessed or whatever you call it.

Then a few weeks later, he left here again, and got into his mess. He called, was messed up, and said he needed help. I called my sister that happened to live in the town he had gone to, and asked her to take him to the ER and sit with him until I was able to drive down there. (We live about 2.5 hours away) The doctor there said he needed to detox, and nothing could be done in any way as far as having him assessed, until he was detoxed. Again, I had hoped they could force him, but that was not the case.

I was feeling VERY frustrated, feeling like the "system" was failing us, because he was asking for help, I was getting him there, and felt they were not taking us serious...in my heart and head, I felt he NEEDED to be seen by a psychiatrist, but he would have to be forced against his will, before that would happen. So, from the hospital, I took him to detox, where he lasted less than 3 full days before walking out. He went on another tear, and then was supposed to go back to work, got on the bus to go, and ran off, with only the clothes on his back left to his name. He called me so scared,again, I ran to that town in the middle of the night to go get him and bring him here to stay. I told him that if he was wanting help, and going to stay here, that he had to agree to have the prescription filled and take the meds. He agreed.

A couple times during this period of a month or so, I had gone to see people at the Canadian Mental Health Association (we live in Canada) to discuss this, and for the sake of my own sanity as well, as I was feeling so overwhelmed and let down. I had read about the symptoms and I was sure he was displaying clear signs of Schizofrenia. The lady there and based soley on my description of his behavior, said she felt he was showing a textbook case of psychosis, and that it could be brought on by the drugs/alcohol and not necessarily Schizofrenia or Bi-polar.

I ended up taking him to see a local doctor, since he would now be on meds, he would need to have a "family" doctor. Again, a general practitioner. He did not think that he was necessarily Bi-polar or Schizofrenic either, saying he would need a proper assessment/evaluation before that could be said, and that he felt it was due to his starting and stopping and starting and stopping of the drugs and alcohol. Not withdrawl symptoms, but yet due to being on them for so many years. He feels it is normal. He did write another prescription though, to help with it, this time it was Clonazepam. He went for a return check-up after just a few days, and has another appointment in 2 weeks again.

He seems totally "normal" in all other ways...he can carry on a conversation, has the same intelligence as he's always had, has memories, but it's just like out of the blue, he starts talking (what I perceive as) nonsense about the people that are out to get him...the military, the police, his boss/company, "big brother", they are all in on it.

I really wish there was a way I could FORCE him into a place for a thorough psychiatric evaluation, but the way the laws are, my hands are tied. Unless he is a threat to himself or others, they will do nothing. He is not suicidal, and he is not in any way threatening to us, however, as has been seen in the past and proven on the news, just how do you know...suddenly someone just "snaps", and they look back and see all the tell-tale signs were there...so WHY does it have to be something bad like that to happen before help becomes available?! Yes, I am very frustrated! LOL!

EDITED TO ADD: A little more to the story. A year ago this past Father's Day, he was away at work and he felt he was "touched"...by God...had a spiritual encounter. He said he felt a hand on his shoulder, and someone saying "It's OK", and repeated it twice more. He said he cried and at that moment, felt the pain that he had ever caused to anyone. He knew then that he needed to change, that he was given this chance, and then went back into his old ways.

We saw him at Christmas, and in January of this year, and he seemed "normal" at that time. So as far as we have been able to pick up on it, it happened between early January and late May of this year. His fiancé (they are no longer together) said that he would go away to work (Diamond Drilling) and come back, and he'd be that way for anywhere from 2-7 days, but would come out of it. But now he is not coming out of it, so not sure what has changed. So in answer to the question, as to whether he is this way (paranoid etc.) when he is clean and sober or under the influence, I have not seen him under the influence...only when he's been coming off of them, and then after he's been off of them.

allforcnm

So sorry you are going through all of this. I was curious if it was powder cocaine, or crack cocaine? Crack usually having much more erratic behavior from what I understand. My husband used powder cocaine during his time of drug use. He never reported having anything like this happen, but he did say it caused paranoia. I believe it went away shortly after he came down from it. My husband also went into rehab and stayed 90 days. They did a full medical evaluation on him once he was there. Have you contacted the rehab and talked to the doctors there? They should have some experience with this, and could offer some suggestions. Depending on the type of rehab facility, many offer liberal visitation and contact, or if that’s not their norm, perhaps something could be put in place where he could have contact with you on a daily basis while they try to determine and treat his medical conditions. It might give him more peace and help him stay to obtain treatment. After about a week, my husband and I were able to talk on the phone, and use skype during certain hours of the day. His rehab was in a different state than where we live, so these communication tools helped, and then I was able to visit on weekends.

HopefulmomtoD

I have a relative that abused crack cocaine and even though he hasn't used crack for quite a few years, it left him with these psychotic episodes of paranoia/delusions.

In addition to addiction, your DS does have psych issues now- they may lessen/go away once he's clean. But, I agree with PP, if you can get him into a rehab, find one that does dual diagnosis.

Just a word of caution (and I don't want to be too much of a downer), but your son's problems are not going to be easily fixed or solved. A rehab is mere drop in the bucket in the amount of work that needs to be done to get his life back on track. Many that attend rehab, relapse and go back to drugs/alcohol. Rehab can be a great start and a place to learn tools to beat an addiction. It might be place that can help some of his mental health issues. But, they are expensive. Don't pay for it if you don't have the money. I've heard stories of people taking out loans, second mortgages, raiding their retirement, etc. and it makes me so sad.

ArniesMama

Allforcnm, I think he used most crack cocaine because (from what I have heard) it is less expensive. Being less expensive, it makes it more readily available, but I have also heard, being synthetic it is a far worse drug than "real" cocaine?? I know he has done both kinds and also, right before he detoxed this last time, he said he (for the first time because he couldn't find or afford the coke) used something called "hydro-morphine"...he said it is an opiate. The way he described it to me, I am guessing it was must have been a strong prescription drug by way of a capsule as he said they were little balls that he snorted. :-( He said he did not like it.

The rehab center we are hoping he can get to, is, and if driving straight through, just under 19 hours, therefore, it would involve his having to fly there and of course, visiting in person would be "out".

When I got him to the doctor, I did tell him I thought we should have a full blood panel and work-up done, and he brushed me off, saying it was the last of his concerns at this time, and nothing that needed done right now. I am sure he saw the look on my face, plus I told him I read that improper care of his body for so many years, coupled with the lack of sleep and not eating well/properly could cause his Vitamin B1 or B12 (I forget which) to be low, and that we need to test all his levels and get him on whatever vitamins he may be lacking to start to level out his chemistry again. He also tested for transmissible diseases such as HIV and Hepatitis A & B etc. This is why I feel so strongly about getting him into that particular rehab because there they have a multitude of professionals to get all the tests and evaluations done. They have psychiatrists, psychologists, doctors, councillors, group, peer, individual councilling etc. They also allow the Skype and phone calls, but I think like you said, they try to get through the first week without. I believe (but not 100% sure until I double check this again) that they also can do or get them to have done, the CTs and MRIs.

ArniesMama

Thanks Hopefulmom. This does shed some light on things, as to his behavior and also sort of solidifying my concerns. That is what I was afraid of, that he may have permanently damaged his brain. :-( I do remember back when I was a teenager, a friend's brother caused himself some permanent brain damage from his use on drugs, and of course, that is what I fear when I look at my son.

Yes, I understand all about the rehab and how people relapse...we have a fair bit of alcoholism in our close and extended family, so even though have not experienced much for drug rehab, have seen the reality of alcohol addiction and relapses etc.

Since we live where we do, this rehab program, including the testing, counciling etc., would be covered by our health, as would the transportation to get him there and back. There are a few of "extra" costs not covered, and that would be going from a 4 bed unit/room to a semi-private or private which we would not do, and maybe prescriptions (which we have to pay for anyway at this point, but might be covered while he is in there) and other things like supplies for crafts, phone cards, personal items etc.

HopefulmomtoD

I'm glad to hear you're going into this with eyes open. I'm always worry that people (heck, I did) will think one trip to rehab and all of the addict's problems are solved. The reality is that for most of us, its a lifelong disease full of ups and downs.

It sounds like you've done your research and rehab sure could help your DS get started on the road to recovery.

Florence

In my experience, the religious visions are indicative of schizophrenia. I'm not a doctor though. My AH is dual diagnosis bipolar and alcoholic and EXTREMELY erratic when he's au naturel.

It's difficult to tell, though, until the addict is free of drugs. An inpatient rehab and long-term recovery structure is what they recommended to my AH. He would do the rehab, but would never commit to sober living like I prayed he would. I think this may be why he has yet to be successful maintaining sobriety in the long term.

Tuffgirl

This place sounds perfect, if your son decides to go and stay there for the entire program time frame.

He really needs a full evaluation and physical. We here can only share our experiences, and what you describe sounds very much like my experience with bi-polar, even the religious aspects of it. But it could be something as simple as malnutrition from years of not eating well. The only way to know is to get him care.

Fingers crossed this works for you and your family. And don't forget, in the midst of it all, to carve some time to take care of yourself, too. Stress and worry are also very hard on us, mentally and physically.

ArniesMama

Thank you all so very much. I will keep you updated as time goes on. Also, I was not aware of the little "thanks" icon in the lower right corner of the posts until I saw that "wicked" was saying "thanks" to those that posted here. Please know though, I am VERY thankful to all that replied, and thanks also to wicked for making me aware of that handy little icon. Have a great day everyone!

Jazzman

Welcome to SR. I'm not sure but it almost sounds like you're trying to project manage his rehab. Maybe too much of a hands on approach? I could be wrong?

Here's a favorite sticky from the best of section. I followed each step like my own sanity depended on it and it actually worked. Good luck!

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...l-problem.html

ArniesMama

Thank you Jazzman for directing me to that page. Yes, very helpful and informative. Unfortunately, I think you are right to some extent. He is living back here now, as he had nowhere else to go. He has also been staying with his sister who lives about a half hour from here for the past several days. If he is willing to give it an honest shot at quitting, I see no reason to throw him out on his butt, BUT, he knows that if he starts, he will be out. We are not providing him money, and we are "running a tab" of his expenses and he understands that it is to be repaid at some point after he is able to get back to work. He is doing a little work around home to help him "earn his keep" (room and board) and buy his cigarettes as we told him we are not going to be supporting that habit.

Jazzman

The best advice I ever heard was set firm boundaries outlining what you can and can't live with, and stick to them. Don't make an ultimatum unless you're prepared to act on it.

ArniesMama

Thank you Jazzman. I totally understand. The boundaries are quite simple. If he stays clean and sober, he is welcome to stay while rehabbing, until he can get his life back together again, but if he starts using either again, he'll be out on his own. Sounds mean maybe, but that is just the way it is going to be.

allforcnm

The rehab sounds wonderful!

It actually sounds a lot like the one my husband went to. It was based more on addiction medicine / private therapy & was intended to treat the whole person. My husband had a group of doctors also, and formed a very close relationship with them. But I know when he first went in, those first couple weeks he was not necessarily accepting all they had to tell him. But they got through to him. His use started after an injury and a couple of surgeries that were not quite successful. The rehab had him work with a physical therapist on his injury while he was there, and had him examined by a specialist.

The rehab experience for us was actually good overall. I mean as much as rehab can be. His rehab assigned me a therapist, I worked with her on Skype a couple times a week. Then when he was about half way through his treatment, they wanted to start us on marriage counseling. So I actually moved to be near the rehab for about 7 weeks. I could have done it long distance, but in person for this was a lot better. They also did a great job transitioning him home. Part of marriage counseling was so that he was coming home to a stable environment where we had worked through a lot of our issues, and were reconciled so to speak. And he was working before he went into rehab, so his last few weeks they had him travel home for a meeting with his employer, meet with coworkers, get caught up on things, and then he was able to come back and explore all those feeling with his doctor. So when he got home and went back to work it was much more relaxed, and safer for him. They also had him do outpatient the last couple weeks while I was there, and we lived in the place I rented with our little boy. He would talk to his doctors every day, and we still did counseling and it also helped with the transition. They had him have sessions with family and friends mostly by phone or Skype. But all of it was intended to make coming home easier. And also, they helped set him up with a doctor for therapy when he came home. That was his mode of follow up care. They picked one, updated him, and did joint sessions while he was still in rehab. So when he got home it was a smooth transition with this doctor and he felt comfortable. I don't mean to go on.. but I wanted to share because rehabs can really do a lot overall; its just that some of them have different philosophies in my opinion. All of this really helped my husband though, and me. So as you go through this process, think about all these things too... transitioning home, helping set up relapse prevention plans, relapse plans.

and I also think what HopefulMom said is correct; treatment for addiction is not necessarily a one shot deal. I think of it like other medical conditions now. If you have cancer, it may take rounds of treatment for example. If you have bipolar then it may take trial and error on medications, and time for therapy to make an impact, etc. I think if more people realized this going in, then it would prevent a lot of disappointment at least. My husband has only had the one round of rehab so far. 3 months, and he has been clean 15 months now. But we have plans in place as much as possible in case there are future problems.

anyway, maybe TMI but the rehab sounds so much like his, that I wanted to mention some of this stuff just for reference. Prayers are with your family tonight.

ArniesMama

THANK YOU so much for your detailed account of your husband's (and your) rehab. It sounds like an awesome system was in place, by caring people that WANTED to try to ensure the chance of relapse were as minimal as possible. Wishing you both many years of clean and sober living together so you can enjoy life with that little boy of yours.