Mizzuno

I was thinking of the theory Nature Vs. Nurture the other morning. This theory has been around for centuries. A child can come from a very wholesome environment, and wind up destroying their lives with addiction. Then, there is the child that comes from abuse, poverty, and drugs, rising above the situation to have a very productive life.
This opened my eyes up to choices, and how we operate in the world. Even though I came from a traumatic environment, I still pushed hard beyond all the circumstances to make some progress. I did not just lay down and say " This is what I was taught. This is what I know." I have fought against addiction my whole life in one way or another. Even though I am Alcoholic, is this a coping mechanism, or is it genetic disposition? Is it because I was shown that ignoring problems and using was the answer? Is it about choice? What is your take on the Nature Vs. Nurture Theory? And your take on the others?
( I am tying a few thoughts and questions into the Theory)

Any takers?

ClearLight

To me it's 50-50.

Plus a great deal of luck, or rather, chance. I've had good, and bad, things happen in my life due to being in a certain place at a certain time.

That's how it looks to me.

Olive1

This is me.
I suppose I am Nature rather than Nurture.

doggonecarl

I don't think it explains my addiction problems.

I got high. I liked it. I keep getting high. I got hooked.

I would love to claim I'm a victim of a loving, nurturing childhood, but it doesn't help my recovery.

Soberpotamus

Well... there's genetics, DNA, and all that... and of course there's environment and learning and all that... and they both come into play, can't really separate them and do an experiment I mean, I guess you could do a really crazy unethical experiment but...

I don't want to comment on that part of your question though.

I come from what I'm sure is a fairly long line of alcoholics... lol. Irish, Native American stands out to me as the obvious genetic disadvantage (if you look into how those people process the alcohol molecule) along with German, Italian, English, and god knows what else thrown in... and I mean, I have alcoholics on grandmother's side (the Irish & Native American), grandfather's side... all that other stuff, Dad's side (English).

So while I was raised in a dysfunctional sort of environment (mom was a crazy kind of in your face alcoholic though smart and lovable... she put me through things I'd never put a child through...and she had lots of guilt over it too), I was also taught by my sober grandfather ("dry drunk" more than likely) and grandmother to NEVER drink. I was taught that I "just can't drink"... and "leave that stuff alone"... "don't EVER let your grandfather catch you drinking"... etc. Basically, while my mom dragged me through crap and drank, I was told NOT to drink and so as a child I was terrified of alcohol and all that came with it.

So what did I do? As soon as I was offered a wine cooler at age 15 I guzzled it right down. Why? How did I go from fearing it and hating it to drinking it? Adolescence. And feeling that I was different. It wouldn't be a problem. It might be fun. I was curious. And it was forbidden. Plus, I had lots of social anxiety at that point... having been dragged from school to school system and out of state because of a crazy alcoholic mom. So initially I used it just because it was there, I was curious, and it was a social lubricant... I was outgoing and funny and got lots of great attention when I drank it.

There is a book by Claudia Black entitled It Will Never Happen To Me. And that is EXACTLY what I thought... that what happened to mother would never happen to me. I was smarter. I would beat it. I drank "sophisticated" wine, not the vodka she guzzled. I wasn't as "bad" as her... all those things I'm sure I felt. And I really believed it.

So, despite the hell, despite the warnings from my grandparents (who absolutely knew what they were talking about! and were right!!), I drank it anyway. And so I had the genetic predisposition already, grew up in the dysfunctional environment, had the social anxiety in school... it all clicked perfectly into place.

How on earth did I manage to survive? I believe my intelligence is mostly what saved me all along. And I simply "knew better" and I always knew I was playing with fire, and had a limited amount of time with the substance. So, in the back of my mind... beginning in college, I knew I had a problem. I do think this kind of awareness early on prevented me from spiralling out of total control later and following in my mom's footsteps (she is dead today from her addiction).

So... maybe that kind of shows an example of genetics, environment, personality, intelligence, etc. all coming into play. It's my experience anyway.

Mizzuno

Will someone please teach me how to pull sentences out of quotes, so that i dont have a wall of text to make my point??

I agree. I really think that it comes down to personal responsibility. I too, was of the mind frame that I would never do what my parents did. I didnt travel as far down as them, but I could have. My brain thought better of it. I like this Theory. Thinking about it is entertaining.

upandup

I can't stay on long right now, I'll post more later. But I was adopted as a baby, and when I hit six months sober in August I'll begin the search for my biological family. I can tell you there are some behaviors that I learned, and some innate qualities that are so vastly divergent from my family that I strongly believe I was born with them.

Olive1

I just delete all the stuff I don't want between the [quote]'s. Don't know if that is the right or easy way.

Soberpotamus

Ohta is right. Just delete out what you don't want to quote. As long as you have the text you want between the it will work.

Soberpotamus

oops... lol

" "

Soberpotamus

well nevermind... guess there's no way to type it without it reading it as code

iwh

this is an interesting discussion. though i forget much of the nature vs nurture theories at the moment and see we are simplifying something complex in the discussion.

i think nature and nurture are both good words and work well together.

to comment on some of what you said, it seems you found tools on the way and used them well to help yourself.

i can't put anyone down anymore for anything. i just want to chime in and make friends, this is a good place for me to come to.

Nuudawn

Interesting topic. For me there are a whole lotta layers to that onion. Addiction is very much part of my DNA so I figure I'm a predisposed to a similar brain chemistry that found relief from substances/food etc. But the actions of those who raised me (one being addictive and one being co-dependent) created the perfect breeding ground for me to find solutions to my difficult wiring in those same substances. Emotions and self expression was not tolerated or understood. I came from a stand up and suck it up sort of environment so my remedies were self focused. What can I do to fix the way I feel? Therapy and medications were for the weak..yet drinking was not only okay but somehow offered as a right of passage. I couldn't wait to grow up and go to bars and drink. That was soooooo adult. I didn't get healthy models on "how to deal". It was "survival" mode mostly in my family. It was a weedy ole garden of judgement, criticism and competition and money and appearance were things of worth and value...rather than the virtues of love (that was also kind of viewed as weakness), kindness, connection with others etc.

Soberpotamus

Ahh... that type of environment... I can relate to very much, Nuudawn.

iwh

that's a really great post nuudawn. i'm dealing with a lot of that too.

mecanix

By asking this question are you infact asking why did it happen?

For me i haven't the foggiest idea about why . Maybe the answer would lie with the children of people who are alcoholics , who have been sober for the whole lives of their children , even then different influences might be at play .

Quite often i turn the question round and ask why am i asking it, as for me this can offten lead to more insight on myself .

I know that wasn't the answer to your question but i hope it makes sence,

Bestwishes, m

Mizzuno

Well, recently I had to write a paper on this Theory. I was wonderring about others views, and see that they are all so different. I am not of the opinion that I am asking why? So much is tied into this theory. Genetics, environment, so on and so forth. I like other people's thoughts, and find this Theory interesting. The original post did not tie in all of the subject matter to this. Anyways, only having conversation. There is a lot of well thought out answers. It all depends on the person when it comes to this subject matter.

Lyoness

As an adoptee, I definitely believe both are at play along with the epigenome theory which says that certain genes either do or don't get activated, and how, based on how our environment interacts with our epigenome factors affecting our DNA. (Clear as mud?)

I grew up in an adoptive, alcoholic environment and was seriously abused by many perpetrators. I also think my birth mother was an addict. I don't have proof but do know she died from complications due to viral hepatitis in the '70s. To me that sort of screams needle act which in my case is like mother like daughter.

I have many of the known increased risk factors along with the above including being female, lesbian, deep rejection stuff (abandoned at birth, adoptive parents rejecting, etc.), and of course the ongoing trauma of my childhood.

On the one hand, it is possible I could have not become an addict, could have been one of those miracle people who come from horror and become amazing, highly successful people. On the other, I could be dead. (I have never, once, wanted to pass along my abuse, never had desire to be anything like my perpetrators.)

Well, I'm neither. I am a human being doing her very best given a whole pile of challenges in life. Some days I feel amazing, that it is a miracle that I am still alive and have been committed to healing my entire life. Other days, well other days I go to the depths of despair and suicide.

I have an addictive personality and feel my very first addiction was to sugar. My first drinking experience pretty much sealed my fate because I LOVED it. And over the course of the next 40+ years became addicted to various substances.

This topic, this question is endlessly fascinating to me. Because there are so many factors, so many ifs, so many tiny things and big things that can change the course of a human life.

Lyoness

I definitely think that part of familial addiction has to do with the fact that using substances to deal with life is modeled as the only possible way to deal with life's challenges. (Here, again, being an adoptee is what brought me to this way of thinking.)

I had the whole codependent thing, too, in that my adoptive mother's entire life, and therefore ours, revolved around my adoptive father's drinking.

Mizzuno

Interesting thoughts. When I choose to reflect, I see that my own biological parents used substances in various degrees to escape the life they were living. My bio-father would drown himself in whiskey because of his emotional pain, and my bio-mother was using meth (to get high) and to also run from her childhood, her mother, her children, her everything. Only now do I see, and I am only speculating, that she has co-morbid disorders that are being masked with drugs.
Jennie has stated that even though it was ingrained into her to not use, she found herself using. I am in the same boat, and told myself that I would never be like my mother, or my father. There are so many things at play in all of this. So, I guess I am realizing, other than being an alcoholic, that on a deeper subconscious level I am acting in ways that I was taught to act. This can be rectified by the determination that I have to make my life the best possible life. I am not making excuses here, and this is not set in stone. I am thinking about ingrained ideas, or messages that I received.
I have to go back to the idea that Nurture played into my development as an adult. I was a very sensitive child, and my mothers rejection broke my heart. She was the first person that I truly loved in the world. This rejection set the stage for a lot of running. I ran from place to place seeking solace. Now, being that I am older, and I am my own parent. I am taking great strides to heal the inner child. Nurture, or lack of nurture played a huge role. Human experiences are so complex.
I must put on the table that I am completely responsible for all my decisions as an adult. There is no victimization involved. I would still most likely be an alcoholic regardless of the lack of nurture. I think that lack of Nurture caused many troubles, and I sense that my emotional growth has been stunted. Im working on it.