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Old 07-02-2013, 10:26 PM
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Empathy is Revolutionary.
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Recently, I decided Mr. Hero and I needed to have a discussion about some questions, comments and concerns I had about our relationship.

Over the course of the conversation, I decided to ask,"What was your alcoholic creation story?"

When he told me he was an alcoholic I accepted it without question. I assumed it was a slow progression from adolescence to adulthood based on his early experience with alcohol.

Typically, I would've asked questions due to my inquisitive writer's mind-frame. However, my innate "fixer" nature and volcanic appetite to seek out "broken" men overrode my want to inquire.

It didn't dawn on me until I was having a conversation with one of my best friends. We were talking about Mr. Hero who had mentioned to me he wasn't an alcoholic in his last relationship (in another conversation) which was only a couple years ago.

Seeing as how we've remained friendly, I remembered him being sober then instantly. We were both having relationship issues at the same time. With that epiphany I realized I never actually asked about the conception and process of his alcoholism.

Mr. Hero being the logical and honest armored critical thinker he is, answered by telling me it took him only two and a half years for him to become an alcoholic. This happened after his relationship ended. Not from sorrow, anger, abandonment or anguish but from nothing else to do.

I asked him,"What was the process like?"

He explained,"It started off drinking with friends at events/special occasions, to hanging out with friends drinking all day for fun and ultimately drinking alone."

What I found interesting was the
friends he had that didn't support his alcohol endeavors he pushed away. Instead, he hung out with the other people who liked to drink.

I asked him,"Did you or have you noticed a change in yourself."

He informed me that he understands he's different he's just not sure how.

I asked him,"What was the emotional and physical change he's noticed from his alcoholism?"

He told me, emotionally he changed because he'll wake up with tears in his eyes and will cry for no reason at times.

Physically, he said he just feels terrible.

I asked him,"When was the first time he realized his alcoholism was serious?"

He said his first realization was after he got his first DUI. He felt really crappy. And it still bothers him till this day.

I asked him,"If you could go back and change it so that this never occurred, would you?"

Surprisingly, He replied,"No, because I wouldn't know what I know now."

That statement made me smile, even though I was still slightly frustrated with him about some relationship issues.

I responded,"I also believe sometimes it is our mistakes that define us and craft us into who we're meant to be."

He agreed.

In that moment, I remembered at the core of our authentic selves we both believed in awareness and consciousness. This is what aligns us. This is what fuels my love for him.

In addition, Mr. Hero has slowed down on his drinking. He's trying ease himself back on the wagon. He was back to his awakened, connected and engaging space.

As always, all perspectives, statements, comments and concerns are welcomed. All feelings are valid and I understand tough love generates real love. Thank for allowing me to be honest.
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Old 07-02-2013, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by MetallicThorn View Post
Over the course of the conversation, I decided to ask,"What was your alcoholic creation story?"
Alcoholic creation story? It's language like this that really irks me. I know if I were in his position, I would feel like I was an insect under a microscope or a test subject... You say he's a person but your language (intentionally or not) makes him sound a bit like a case study. (Not a judgment just an observation).


Originally Posted by MetallicThorn View Post
I responded,"I also believe sometimes it is our mistakes that define us and craft us into who we're meant to be."
I want to be really clear on something here. Mistakes DO NOT have the power to define us - we are defined by how we choose to deal with those mistakes or moments of trauma.

No two people who go through the same thing or make a mistake will have the same outcome. That comes from their context, their morals, their character and a whole host of other things that make someone who they are.

Life may deal us a great hand, and we could choose to play it wisely or with reckless abandon. Life may deal us a bum hand and we can choose to accept those cards and just muddle as best as we can... or we can turn it into a royal flush.

Your Mr Hero has told you some very important facts about himself. He has told you that he accepts that he as an alcoholic and that it was a "natural progression"; he has told you that he feels relatively crappy and that he cries a lot. So he is neither healthy nor is he stable. He maintains that he would not change anything because otherwise he wouldn't know what he knows now. My question is: what does he know? Maybe he has a heightened sense of awareness of his problems but if he chooses to do nothing with that knowledge than he is no better off than before.

Originally Posted by MetallicThorn View Post
In that moment, I remembered at the core of our authentic selves we both believed in awareness and consciousness. This is what aligns us. This is what fuels my love for him.
Many people might believe in awareness and consciousness - that does not make them an ideal match. It also doesn't make him any less of an alcoholic. He is just as destructive as any A. When I broke up with my ex fiance, I started therapy. My therapist asked me what I looked for in a potential mate. I told her, I did not want to be beaten, raped or abused. That was my yardstick for a good boyfriend. She told me that the criterion I had mentioned are simply what is expected of a decent human being.

So maybe your mutual belief is what aligns you and fuels your love for him but that alone does not make him a good partner, and is not a good enough justification to stay with an alcoholic.


Originally Posted by MetallicThorn View Post
In addition, Mr. Hero has slowed down on his drinking. He's trying ease himself back on the wagon.
This is great ! I think it is fantastic he has slowed down on his drinking and is trying to ease himself back on the wagon, as you put it.

Originally Posted by MetallicThorn View Post
He was back to his awakened, connected and engaging space.
This is just called being Sober! And you have contradicted yourself here because in other posts you have commented that he is in a heightened sense of connectedness, etc when he is drunk and that he allows you in to his intimate space, etc.

When someone is drunk, most things they say should be taken with a grain of salt - you have not found a window to their innermost soul; you have just sat and listened to the ramblings of a drunk and tried to turn it into something more inspiring.

I also disagree that tough love generates real love. Love is not generated. It is felt and earned and it grows and nurtures your soul and takes you somewhere beautiful... And only REAL love can inspire REAL love - not tough love.
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Old 07-02-2013, 11:58 PM
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Well, if the writing doesn't work out, you could consider Talk Show Host.
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:23 AM
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Metallic Thorn, I follow this forum because of concern at my father's growing dependence on alcohol, and I have also this year decided to quit alcohol myself.

You have said that you welcome perspectives so I will gently add my own.

The key issue that strikes me as arising for your posts is that, at present, this is all rather theoretical. The alcoholism is already causing issues for you and the bf but as you are both young there is not yet the added complication of, for example, full time jobs, children, and so on. So you are currently not being hit with genuine crises that require immediate or remedial action and that have arisen from the drinking.

In another post you referred to emotional awareness -v- emotional involvement. You explained the difference between these in the terms coined by the authors of a book you recommended. That is, the book defines emotional involvement as recognising an emotion (I feel sad), and emotional awareness as, essentially, the embracing of that emotion and the working through it (I recognise my sadness and I will work through it by feeling it. Strangely, I would have put these definitions exactly the other way round as that appears more logical to me.

But using the book's definitions, emotional involvement would for example have you thinking "I am despondent", whereas emotional awareness would have you thinking along the lines of "ok, I will stop the world, cancel my appointments, and allow my mind and body to fully embrace my despondency in order that I can set it aside in a healthy way".

I have to say that this is fine if you do not have a demanding job, children to take care of, elderly relatives or other pressing matters, but if you do, you have to deal with emotions in an efficient way. I'm afraid I don't have time to read the book, and I could have entirely the wrong end of the stick, but it is a small leap to see that crisis after crisis brought on by an advanced alcoholic will not afford the luxury of time for the processing of emotion within the concept of emotional awareness (as that term is used in the book you refer to).

I would, secondly, like to add some gentle advice about the "verbosity" to which many posters refer, and find irksome. In one of your lists I see that one day you plan to be a professor at Oxford University in the UK. I studied there, and I have to say that Oxford professors are not what one might imagine. They are, by and large, extremely down to earth. Sure, they can switch on the verbosity at will, and they can ramp it up ad absurdiam, but the key - the real key - to conveying meaning is the ability to express that meaning in the simplest terms.

I would make a suggestion that you practise re-phrasing, simply try out different ways of saying things. Or study Latin, for example, or another foreign language to gain the ability to distill foreign language concepts for which there is no direct transalation into the English. I think what I'm saying is that people should not have to mentally "translate" your posts or refer to separate texts to understand your meaning. If they must do so, they are starting from a point of frustration or irritation, and this will presumably flavour their replies to you.

As an example, your phrase "In that moment, I remembered at the core of our authentic selves we both believed in awareness and consciousness..". I am not personally sold on the idea that awareness or consciousness actually require "belief" in order to exist, but that aside could your phrase retain the exact same meaning if you simply said "deep down we are on the same wavelength", or even "we click on a deep level"?

I hope you do not take this as any form of attack, it is offered with a genuine desire to help you get more out of your posts and responses.

Snowie
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Old 07-03-2013, 04:25 AM
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MT, glad you have the dialogue with him. Many of us sort of settle into isolated silence.

I thought "Creation Story" was a fairly clever description. So many here wander through the "Why, Why, Why" desert for years, but never really find anything. Sometimes an interesting to visit but no place to live.

Yesterday one of my kids was asking if I "regretted" meeting [their] mom. Heard my heart telling them I had no regrets. Wish she were well now, but would not have likely done anything different.

Best to you. Try not to mind the folks who find your style odd [to them]. Folks have to get through this stuff anyway they can, and most generally are doing the best they can.
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Old 07-03-2013, 07:50 AM
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Responses 1

I wanted to come and answer some questions, comments and concerns I received.

Jad3d made the comment,"This is just called being Sober! And you have contradicted yourself here because in other posts you have commented that he is in a heightened sense of connectedness, etc when he is drunk and that he allows you in to his intimate space, etc."

Allow me to add clarification to the statement. I went and found the quote for you in hopes of clearing this misunderstanding.

This is what was stated in my post,"What's interesting is when he's drunk, there's an open window of opportunity into his core that he rarely accesses. Though he is always honest with me, sober or not, he then becomes emotionally available to me. ...And it makes me want to get to know him better now."-Underground King.

Jad3d asked,"Alcoholic creation story?"

I'm glad you asked. To be honest, it was simply the way my mind formulated the question. I didn't know another way to put it. I thought much like anything else, there's a beginning. And "alcoholic creation story" is what configured.

Argnotthisagain stated,"Well, if the writing doesn't work out, you could consider Talk Show Host"

Thank you for the compliment. I never thought about that as a possibility in terms of a career. Though it isn't something in the plans, if life(God,Universe) points me in that direction, who am I to say no.

Snowie71 stated,"I hope you do not take this as any form of attack, it is offered with a genuine desire to help you get more out of your posts and responses."

Oh, absolutely not. I can tell you truly meant it from a positive place. I will admit, Snowie71, you are right in your advice.

However, I have two respective concerns with this.

In my perspective,"rephrasing" my language would be dishonoring my integrity and authentic self. The way I formulate my language is what comes naturally to me and to deny that would compromise my sense of self.

Moreover, one of my convictions is, "Being and inhabiting the change you wish to see in the world." I think the world would be more aware if society didn't promote the deduction of intelligence and consciousness. And instead of speaking my truth, I've decided to live in it.

I appreciate each and every one of you. For those who simply read my post, "Thank you."

For, Jad3d, Argnotthisagain, Snowie71 and Hammer for responding, "Thank you."
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:33 AM
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i am really not on the attack here. hell, i'm an alcoholic so feel free to disregard my point of view.

my take on this is that mr 'hero' is enjoying the attention. you, in turn, are enjoying the 3-act tragedy of your relationship. this is the epitome of codependence.

i would also add that the verbosity of your posts borders on pomposity. read your posts back in 5 or 10 years and you'll see what people are trying to tell you.
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Old 07-03-2013, 01:01 PM
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Mr. Hero's drinking is not a "mistake". It is a conscious decision to pick up a container of alcohol, pour it in his mouth, and swallow it. Anything short of acknowledging that is an "excuse".

The "why" of it all can be interesting (or not...*yawn*), but the "why" has no bearing at all in ending an addiction.

The way to stop being addicted to alcohol is to stop drinking it. Period.

(See the Buddhist parable of the poisoned arrow for an apt analogy of the necessity of teasing out "root causes" or "unresolved issues" to ending addiction.)

If one wants to explore ones psyche after that and revel in existential angst...knock yourself out, but it has not one thing at all to due with ending addiction. Authentic soul searching and meaningful introspection cannot effectively take place in the presence of an intoxicant.

Round and round discussions are what addictions thrive on. They serve to allow the addiction to continue. Those kinds of interactions do not get the addicted individual closer to resolution, quite the opposite. They allow the behavior to continue openendedly, because hey, you know, i just "cant figure out why I do this". I'm trapped in this cycle until I can "figure it out". That's total hooey. The answer starts with this: Stop. Putting. Alcohol. In. Your. Body.

Less talk, more action. Mr. Hero needs to quit drinking for good.
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Old 07-03-2013, 01:38 PM
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Response 2

I just wanted to come and honor a recent response.

Soberlicious made this statement,"Round and round discussions are what addictions thrive on. They serve to allow the addiction to continue. Those kinds of interactions do not get the addicted individual closer to resolution, quite the opposite. They allow the behavior to continue openendedly, because hey, you know, i just "cant figure out why I do this". I'm trapped in this cycle until I can "figure it out". That's total hooey. The answer starts with this: Stop. Putting. Alcohol. In. Your. Body."

I do believe you could be right. I can admit that I can be 100% wrong. For me, I just like to give every method a try before ruling it out. If in fact, it turns out this path is leading Mr. Hero in the wrong direction, I have no problems shifting gears.

In spite of it all, I was so moved by your ending statement I had to reach out.

Soberlicious stated,"Less talk, more action. Mr. Hero needs to quit drinking for good."

This is such a powerful and vehemently transcended statement. It encompasses my intention wholly for him in terms of alcoholism. Whether or not I'm aware of how to achieve this is still an ephemeral thought. By allowing God to move and breathe through me, I can only hope my answer will be an emulation of my intention.

I could say more but my point to all of this is,"Thank you, Soberlicious."
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Old 07-03-2013, 01:47 PM
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If in fact, it turns out this path is leading Mr. Hero in the wrong direction, I have no problems shifting gears...

This is such a powerful and vehemently transcended statement. It encompasses my intention wholly for him in terms of alcoholism. Whether or not I'm aware of how to achieve this is still an ephemeral thought. By allowing God to move and breathe through me, I can only hope my answer will be an emulation of my intention.
These quotes are A+, A1 codependency in action. Your intentions for him. Achieving goals for him. Leading him in the right/wrong direction.

The first things we learn here are that we didn't cause it, can't control it, and can't cure it. It's out of your hands. Nevertheless, you're neck deep in controlling and curing this man. Any progress you have in this relationship or in spite of it will come from there.

Any progress he makes will be despite your best efforts. Despite your best efforts.

Good luck.
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:18 PM
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Oh, dear MT....

thank you for including me in your benediction, and for giving me the gift of your appreciation for my suggestion.

At this point, I'm really not concerned with diluting my thoughts with socially approved niceyness. You want frank appraisal? You're gonna get it.

I see a pattern where you are ignoring meaningful reflection of your blind-spots offered to you in the spirit of this board.

First, you claim to welcome all responses, and that you practice some kind of elevated moral awareness far above that of mere mortals, but then reply only to a very select few posts. That they are the comments which you can most easily intellectualize and manipulate to grandstand your super-intelligence has not gone unnoticed.

Second, the only feedbacks you are addressing are those questioning your verbosity. You claim that you are only being faithful to your muse, and expressing your true self, but your selectivity hints otherwise.

Ignoring questions and discussion regarding the real-life anguish people here are processing and sharing with YOU is highly insulting. You show brazen disrespect for people who have decades of life and experience beyond yours. From my perspective, you are experiencing all of this--your boyfriend, alcoholism, abuse, and us, the human beings you purport to be so empathically concerned for--as an intellectual game.

I would go so far as to say you appear to be using this board as an arena for your performance.

You remind me of a girl I knew decades ago who showed the same scrupulous Ethical Humility(tm) and over-intellectualization. She held her Multiple Personality Disordered boyfriend on a pedestal far above the rest of humanity, and by her understanding and Radical Empathy (she called herself An Empath), made clear that she regarded herself above the rest of us fat and greasy citizens.

Of course, as you, Gentle Reader, may have guessed, she was simultaneously conducting a clandestine affair with my boyfriend while pretending all manner of innocent motivations to the group we were involved in at that time.

You sound very much like her with your self-involvement and your mask of humility, and so--yeah, you trigger the hell out of me.


Finally, as to your writing:
As a fellow lover of polysyllabic sesquipedalianism, let me now kindly offer you three pieces of academic advice:
1. Spell and punctuate correctly (innocent typos excepted).
2. Use the correct word. i.e. "I think the world would be more aware if society didn't promote the deduction of intelligence and consciousness. And instead of speaking my truth, I've decided to live in it." You would sound less silly if you knew the difference between the word, "deduction" and "denigration".

That is only one example of many, just so we're clear that I'm not nailing you on an aberration.

3. Use the active rather than the passive voice. This is just a generally accepted tenet of good writing. Certainly you are free to disregard according to your muse, but understand that readers will respond negatively to it. The passive voice renders your writing less immediate, and more flatulent. Pardon me. I meant "florid". And tedious.

I thank you humbly and hope this is taken in the spirit in which it was intended.
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by MellaticThorn
Whether or not I'm aware of how to achieve this is still an ephemeral thought.
Thats's where your logic is flawed. You can't achieve something for him.

Others often say an addicted person can't quit for someone else. I don't agree with this 100%. When the possibility of losing my children was very real, I decided that was indeed important enough for me. That initial reason gave me just enough of a foothold on quitting to get some clarity. Now many years later, never drinking is my chosen path, but its now way beyond just for keeping my children.

It's because I decided. I decided it was time.

I'm sorry to tell you that it doesn't matter what you do or don't do, what path you take, what strategies you use, what you learn about addiction, how far you delve into his childhood, it's all moot until he decides he is done.

How much control do you have in helping him to decide he is done? Much less than you think, unfortunately.

I believe you are correct in honoring his choices. It's his right to drink himself, even to death if he chooses. So standing by him is also your choice. If spending time with him drunk outweighs not spending time with him at all, then carry on. When and if it doesn't though, you'll know it's time to move on. In the meantime though, consider your relationship a poly amorous triad...you, him, and his addiction.
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:44 PM
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May I also add:

You not only appear to be using this board as an arena for your egotistical posturing, but your boyfriend as well.
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:48 PM
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Argnotthisagain,

Though I could be one hundred percent incorrect, I do believe she meant the elimination or the removal of that aspect of a person. I also feel that we all need to step away from mere assumptions and questions if that was the person's intent or whether the meaning we drew from their words match with how we perceived it.

MetallicThorn,

It seems like you're still inquiring to have a better understanding of the situation. You have such colorful wording, but I am pretty sure you will be able to find the best way to express yourself; as I would always say, whatever feels comfortable for you and it is up to the readers to question if that was your intent or if there are hidden meanings between the lines and behind your words. I am grateful that you had this chat with Hero, maybe you've gained more insight to him as a person.

Also, from my own personal experience, I can understand where you are coming from when you state that you're gaining more insight on what might have contributed to his drinking and whether or not he simply was incapable of dealing with the current or past issues and felt it was much simpler to drown out and numb those exact feelings you're trying to find out. From my situation, I would have never known what my mother endured if it were not for her drinking and having loose lips and telling me painful truths of her past that no one else within our family would divulge.
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:55 PM
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Some write in flowery language, some very dramatic, and some use only a few words and expect it to tie into a whole philosophy. What is important is only that you are true to yourself, and somehow what you share here helps you along your journey. We all learn as we go, grow and change.

Personally I think it is good news that your boyfriend is trying to moderate his alcohol use. It is also good that you can have conversations about his alcoholism, when it started, how he feels about it. I don’t hear disappointment, shame, or blame when you speak to him. You are just opening dialog so he can share his emotions and thoughts. I agree talking can become circular with no progress being made, but sometimes we cannot judge when it is a person takes steps towards progression; change starts somewhere. It happens is stage I believe, and it starts in the mind and the soul.

I also do think addiction is progressive; and especially in the early stages, our love does have power in helping those we love identify their problem and make changes. In fact there is a whole program for family that is based on our providing positive reinforcement and encouragement of non-drinking, non-using behavior. It is called Craft (community reinforcement and family training) and is proven successful in getting people to moderate their drinking, and also with the ultimate goal; their seeking treatment. Your views, and interaction with Mr Hero seem in line with this process, and there is nothing wrong with it. Its even recommended by the National Institute of Drug Abuse. If your interested in learning about this, please send me a note and I can provide resources for you.

Here's wishing a Happy Independence Day to you and Mr. Hero.
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Old 07-03-2013, 03:10 PM
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Response 3

I just wanted to come and respond to some questions, comments and concerns.

Florence made the comment,"These quotes are A+, A1 codependency in action. Your intentions for him. Achieving goals for him. Leading him in the right/wrong direction."

This could be true. It could be my "fixer", "planner", or "codependency" coming through. To be quite honest, I don't believe these are "flawed" character traits. This, of course, is my perspective.

Alcoholic relationship or not, I believe there is a balance to the world. There are independent people, codependent people and dependent people. Each has a very important and intricate role to play. If the world was full of independent people there wouldn't be no need for team building exercises taught throughout life.

It could also be perceived that people in,"Alanon" and in other support groups have become codependent on them. Though, this is just a perspective and differs from person to person.

Soberlicious stated,"Thats's where your logic is flawed. You can't achieve something for him"

As I've stated before I could always be wrong but I want to try every method first.

Before I depart I wanted to address this statement,"You sound very much like her with your self-involvement and your mask of humility, and so--yeah, you trigger the hell out of me."

Argnotthisagain, though I wish your pain could be wiped clean I can't take ownership of your emotions. Perhaps, the book,"The Heart of the Soul: Emotional Awareness" by Gary Zukav and Linda Francis could help you.

I empathize with your past pain and my greatest hope is that one day it can be resolved.

Moreover, I think the quote by Snowie71 will also help you.

Snow71 stated,"Your last post triggered the hell out of me - so much so that I couldn't respond and deleted the app from my iPhone. That's my stuff, not yours"

To allfourcnm, SecondMilitia, Florence, Soberlicious and Argnotthisagain, "Thank you."
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Old 07-03-2013, 03:17 PM
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Not guilty - not my quote, someone else's?
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Old 07-03-2013, 03:27 PM
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I do believe you could be right. I can admit that I can be 100% wrong. For me, I just like to give every method a try before ruling it out. If in fact, it turns out this path is leading Mr. Hero in the wrong direction, I have no problems shifting gears.
MetallicThorn,

I think you could be getting it.

First, based on my years of personal experience with my own addiction and that
of friends and family members, she is absolutely 100% correct when she says,
The answer starts with this: Stop. Putting. Alcohol. In. Your. Body.
It is the only way to begin the journey to recovery. Everything else is just words.

What path is it that you think Mr. Hero is on now, and what other "methods" are you
considering for him?

It has already been stated, but I will add to that chorus,
nothing you do, nothing you say, no feelings or emotions you have for Mr. Hero
will make him stop drinking if that is his choice.

Did you read the story/analogy about Buddha and the poisoned arrow?
I am interested in your take on it, and how it might relate to your position on Mr. Hero's alcoholism.

Also, since Mr. Hero is so honest, have you asked him if he wants to be an alcoholic?
Does he see that it might take away from a true relationship with you?
Speaking from my own experience, I could not be in any true relationship with anyone
when I was actively drinking.

Beth
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Old 07-03-2013, 03:30 PM
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MT,

Well bless your heart.

your behavior triggers me, but does not send me into an emotional upset, thanks for the concern. It serves to help identify. Recovery work includes learning to identify red flags.

So, I consider it a good thing that I see the red flags!

Anyway, that was perfect. I would have expected nothing less from you. Your empathy would sound sincere if it wasn't the lone demonstration. Specifically, if you demonstrated such big-heartedness towards others who have shared their pain, but not dealt you a narcissistic blow.
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Old 07-03-2013, 03:32 PM
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Correction-Jad3d stated the quote,"Your last post triggered the hell out of me - so much so that I couldn't respond and deleted the app from my iPhone. That's my stuff, not yours."

Thank you, Snowie71 for informing me.

Also, thank you to Jad3d for that quote.
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