MetallicThorn

Even though I'm not willing to end my relationship with Mr. Hero, I still want to use this platform to vent and express my thoughts, notions and feelings on my relationship. I think it's more than okay to agree to disagree when two perspectives don't align.

I had a conversation with Mr. Hero. He raised a statement that I couldn't help zeroing in on.

The statement was,"I just want to sleep, drink and shut the world out."

This made me curious and wonder what did the world ever do to him?

Year's ago, he told me how his parent's argued and ultimately ended in divorce. Before they divorced, all the arguing left him emotionally drained and at nine years old he emotionally shut down. His parents sent him to a therapist but by then it was too late.

What's interesting is when he's drunk, there's an open window of opportunity into his core that he rarely accesses. Though he is always honest with me, sober or not, he then becomes emotionally available to me. ...And it makes me want to get to know him better now.

It's such an oxymoron to think I have to get access to him drunk, so that I can understand him sober. Moreover, understand why he run's from sobriety.

I know that there's a physical change that causes people to become alcoholic's. I'm also aware that adulthood is here to address the unfinished business of childhood.

Of course, I expressed how I'm apart of the world. He assured me he had no intention on shutting me out.

I acknowledge that other's can possibly perceive this as fantasy, fallacy and denial but as I've stated on SR before,"Mr. Hero doesn't lie, sober or not."

For me, the biggest thing that plagues me when he begins drinking(besides him drinking) is his memory loss. He had no recollection of the conversation we had last night. All I know, is that I love him anyway.

As always, all opinions, perspectives, comments and concerns are welcome. I understand that tough love generates real love and everyone's perspectives and feelings are valid.

Thank you, for allowing me to be honest.

owathu

I feel that you are looking at him as a project and not as a human being with a very real addiction. My husband was also open "emotionally" while drinking, but that still doesn't mean that he was emotionally available. Because he wasn't. And isn't. Your person isn't "fixing" anything by giving you access to his drunken thoughts. He's drunk and therefore not available, and therefore also "shutting you out". One cannot be present in a relationship or life while drunk. And even when he "sobers" up for a day, he is still technically drunk. So, you really have never met who he really is.

What you do know: He's an alcoholic, and he's not making active steps to get sober. That is who he is. And who he will be until he works a program. And that person is not emotionally available in any way.

soberlicious

He is not emotionally available when he's drinking. He's drunk and maybe more talkative, but there's a difference, as evidenced by the fact that he has exactly zero recollection of these deep and meaningful talks you are having when he's drunk.

"I just want to sleep, drink, and shut out the world" is actually very common thought among the addicted. Many of us have even fantasized about holing up in a hotel and using or drinking into oblivion. It has nothing to do with being damaged or having pain from childhood. I mean its nice to couch it in those terms to try and make sense of it, but thats not the "reason". It's because he's addicted to alcohol and that comes first.

There are millions of people in this world that have had unspeakable things happen to them as children that do not become addicted to alcohol. There are people that have extremely difficult circumstances every single day...physical, emotional, financial challenges, who don't become addicted.

As a side note, active alcoholics are often depressed. Not a shocker really, alcohol use can create depression. Many of us find the brain resolves itself when we quit drinking.

fedupbeyondall

I too have had this experience with my AH. (ahh the fun acronyms I'm learning all of a sudden) He is way more willing to talk to me about his feelings when he's drunk. He also has no recollection of the conversation the next day, or at least won't acknowledge it if he does. Which makes it all the more frustrating. I really feel he could make more progress to resolving some of his issues (his childhood was ****** to say the least) if he could acknowledge those feelings while sober. He can't or wont. I guess we need to figure out how to reach the men in our lives while they're sober so some real progress can be made.

fluffyflea

It sounds like he;s using his childhood as an excuse for his behaviour..
It is never too late for us to work on things from our past if we want to.

Springs

Have you considered how nice it would be to be in a relationship with someone who wants to explore the world with you, not shut it out? And someone who wants to be emotionally available to you sober or not?

ZenMe

If you think you are cracking the case by accessing him drunk you have another thing coming.

Eventually you will get tired of accessing him drunk because you will realize it's just a part of the addiction and not anything rooted in reality.

MetallicThorn, what do you want out of life? I think you need to start asking yourself this question if you haven't already. From other posts and this one you seem whimsical and so disconnected. You need to reconnect with you.

And if I'm way off base, then disregard and thanks for sharing =).

AnvilheadII

on the one hand you say how open he is when he's drinking, you THINK you have a window to his soul.....but then he doesn't recall any of it.

he said - I just want to drink, sleep and shut out the world. that is HIS reality. yet you ask what the hell life did to him? he spoke, we assume, in honesty....but instead of just accepting that, you seek for ways to invalidate and in fact minimize HIS reality. evidently he didn't suffer ENOUGH damage as a youth to warrant his pain today.

see that's what it is...for many addicts/alcoholics....pain. and drinking becomes a balm to that pain. it can be called self-medicating, poor survival mechanisms, lack of emotional maturity. that doesn't invalidate the pain beneath. but it also does not EXCUSE the behaviors generated by one in the throes of active addiction.

you speak of him as a scientist poking around a petri dish. he's a human, he's flawed, he has issues that he is dealing with in his own way. he's an alcoholic and yet you say that when he is drunk, you have better "access" to his interior space.

for some perspective, lest you think i'm just spouting off...the first 4.5 years hank and I were together we smoked crack. crack made hank very chatty....he is not normally THAT chatty or self disclosing. I pretty much heard his life story....I came to KNOW the people in his stories...I know Raz, and Kayleen, and Twinkle Toes....and thru those stories I did learn a lot about his story...but I would NOT today think fondly for a minute that when he was high on crack, I had access to his inner landscape.

Kimmieh

I read through your previous posts and it's uncanny how much I relate. For 6 years I thought I could fix my ABF because I felt all this compassion and empathy for the human underneath the addiction. He was sexually abused repeatedly by his brother and another man, beaten by his father, he suffered traumatic experiences while in the military, overcame crack addiction (well, replaced with alcohol), and much more. He truly had a troubled life and I just could not leave him. So I stayed and tried and tried and tried. Nothing changed although he attempted to quit a few times. When he was drunk he would open up and I felt exactly like you about believing to have access.

After six years, my new job meant I had to move away to another country and because of visa issues, he couldn't come with me. We didn't find out until we had moved out, so I dropped him off at his family's and went to settle down by myself. And what do you know - in the 8 months during which I have only talked to him on the phone, I have not heard him drunk once. He takes care of things, makes enough money, works through bureaucracies, has his drinking under control (for the time being), supports his cousin whom he lives with.

I never helped him! I kept him safe from suffering the consequences of being a drunk, which only made things worse! My conviction that this grown man would be helpless without me didn't help at all. He is perfectly capable of handling himself. And I have found that lavishing my empathy and compassion on my dogs is much healthier for me AND him!

wicked

No. It does not work that way. As long as he is drinking, he hears your voice like
Charlie Brown hears his teacher.
A muted horn, mumbling in the background.
Nothing matters except getting drunk.

The idea that you are getting any real information or emotional connection with
someone who is not there is well, ludicrous.

And then, that same man tells you the next day they remember NONE of it?
Anyone that is a blackout drunk (like I was) was not there.
Physically, I was standing there, or sitting there talking.
But I was on autopilot.
I tell you there are so many nights I drove in that condition!

You will not love anyone out of addiction.
It will not happen. Ever.

MetallicThorn,

We are all in the restaurant, on the hill, frantically waving at you to get away from
the spilled gas.
But you continue to light the cigarette and throw down that match.
BOOM!

Is it love for this guy or a thesis you are writing?
We are not agreeing to disagree, we are not even talking about the same thing.

fedup,
No progress will ever be made by you about his drinking.
Drinking is his problem.
I was married to a drunk and a crack addict.
Nothing I did would change him.
He has to make his own progress, decide to drink or not.
You have to decide what you will live with.
Drunk guy or drunk guy who gets recovery.

Beth

ShootingStar1

You have a narrative about what you believe the purpose of being human is, and that is that people grow and evolve so that they can actualize their inner potential and become the most that they can be.

You translate this into a narrative about people's lives, and, on this thread, about your alcoholic boyfriend's life in particular.

So, for you, your ABF is not defined by who he is and how he behaves at a particular point in time.

He says: "I just want to sleep, drink and shut the world out."

That is his self definition. That is who he is and who he wants to be. How he got there, why he is this, if he will always want to be this, none of that matters to him.

This is a flat definitive statement of existence. It is his existential self identification.

You, on the other hand, believe that any moment of existence is merely a transitory temporary landing place on the passage way to full evolution and expression of a human being's potential.

Therefore, his statement about who he is, seems to you to be just one point on the continuum of a very long line leading ever onward.

Because he gives you no more detail, no past, no present, no hope of what he wants, you invent it. You fantasize about what happened in his childhood to make him stuck in this bad point on your long line. You fantasize about the potential in him to become whatever he - or you - want him to become. You judge that as he is now is less than he should be, less than he could be. You find that unacceptable.

It does not fit with your theory that all life is about evolution toward greater and greater realization of one's potential.

Therefore, to you, his flat statement of the bedrock of who he is - "I just want to sleep, drink and shut the world out." - is incomplete, imperfect, and unacceptable. It does not fit with your world view of the purpose of life. And it must fit, in order for you to be comfortable.

But none of that is real. Your view of life, to many who have posted on this forum, is idealistic and naive. But it is yours, and you are entitled to it, and entitled to live your life in its context.

What makes people see you as unrealistic and in some ways unreal, is that you insist on capturing another person's identity in your context. Even when they tell you flat out they do not fit into your context, they do not ever want to fit into your context, and your context means nothing to them at all.

The condescention that people are referring to comes from your inability and refusal to accept the reality of who someone else is. And to accept that the other guy has the full right to believe that life is just one point. No line. No continuum. No evolution of human spirit. No actualization of potential.

Your alcoholic boyfriend has that right. To be just one point. Nothing else.

You can delude yourself by inventing a long narrative about him, an imagined historical and prospective narrative about what happened to make him the way he is, how he could be something more, something different.

He doesn't care.

It is this that makes people feel that you are living in a fantasy land.

Part of growing older and wiser is giving up our own arrogance that we know best and that our views apply to everyone around us. This humility also frees us to see the truth, to make our decisions based on the truth, and to live in truth.

From what you have said here on the SoberRecovery Forum, your alcoholic boyfriend is exactly what he wants to be as he is right now.

What does that say to you about what you want your life to be? That is the real question that SoberRecovery helps us address: who are we and who do we want to be in light of the truth?

ShootingStar1

wicked

Okay, I read this and remembered. Sometimes I just talked and made things up.
Lies. All lies and manipulations.
I can admit this now, sometimes I told stories just to get a reaction, or attention,
or better yet some pity.
Pretty sick yes?
Drunks and addicts lie.
I did it sometimes just for sport.

Okay, time for some alanon cds.

Beth

MetallicThorn

I'm just updating and responding to some questions, comments, statements and concerns.

In term's of the comment,"I feel that you are looking at him as a project and not as a human being with a very real addiction."

On some level, my authentic self agree's with you to an extent. By nature, I'm a "fixer" and nurturing. In the past, I've sought out men that are broken but that doesn't take away the care I felt for them. I do see Mr. Hero as a human being yet I know my nature to fix still slips in. This is something I don't know how to change about myself.

Another comment was,"you speak of him as a scientist poking around a petri dish. he's a human, he's flawed, he has issues that he is dealing with in his own way. he's an alcoholic and yet you say that when he is drunk, you have better "access" to his interior space."

I think what you're perceiving here is my "fixer" nature coming through. As I've stated above, my innate need to fix can, unwittingly, reveal its self without me being conscious of it. Often times, it's second nature like a reflex. I am working on that though.

A statement that was made was," It has nothing to do with being damaged or having pain from childhood. I mean its nice to couch it in those terms to try and make sense of it, but thats not the "reason". It's because he's addicted to alcohol and that comes first."

This is exactly what I was struggling with and conflicted about. I understand and acknowledge this. As I stated, I know there is a physical change that occurs and causes people to become alcoholics. I just wanted to look at every perspective.

Another comment was,"I really feel he could make more progress to resolving some of his issues (his childhood was ****** to say the least) if he could acknowledge those feelings while sober. He can't or wont. I guess we need to figure out how to reach the men in our lives while they're sober so some real progress can be made."

I too believe if they addressed they're feelings while sober, some real progress could be made. Mr. Hero, in my perspective, doesn't know how or refuses to accesses those emotions slithering below his logical armor.

Finally, this statement was made,"It is never too late for us to work on things from our past if we want to."

I'm a firm advocate for this statement. "It is never too late."

A question that was raised was,"Have you considered how nice it would be to be in a relationship with someone who wants to explore the world with you, not shut it out? And someone who wants to be emotionally available to you sober or not?"

Yes, I've considered and thought about that. And despite me only being twenty-two, I've had a chunk of experience in the dating world. Believe it or not, I've had far worse situations dating someone sober than I have with Mr. Hero. I've known Mr. Hero altogether about seven years. We met as teen's and started dating but it fell through. We remained friends though. So, I've known him before the alcoholism. Which is why, I'm also adamant about not giving up on him.

A question was poised,"MetallicThorn, what do you want out of life?"

•Get my M.A in Psychology.

•Move out to California. (After five years of working.)

•Finish writing and publish my first book in a series, I'm working on.(In the next four years)

•Have my first child.(By the time I'm 28)

•Publish my second book.(At 29)

•Open my own practice. (Five years after moving to California.)

•Have my second child.(At 33)

•Publish my third book.(At 34)

•Start saving for my move to London. (For the next seven years)

•Get my Doctorate degree in Psychology. (By the time I'm 40)

•Move London. (At least by 45)

•Have two homes. One in London and the other on the countryside.

•Be a professor at Oxford university. (For at least ten years)

This is just the blueprint of my plan, things and dates are liable to change.

A comment was phrased,"From other posts and this one you seem whimsical and so disconnected. You need to reconnect with you."

I actually enjoy introspection and reflection. I relish in my alone time and do quite a lot of soul searching. I believe in cultivating my most authentic self. In order to become whole, I have to continuously build upon my observing ego.


Here are my thoughts after reading everyone's response.

On this topic, I can understand where a lot of you are coming from. Perhaps, my empathy and love for him could be stifling him. I am not one to deny this. It is simply my perspective at this point but I could always be wrong. I've read posts where once people stopped giving as much empathy that's when their alcoholic got it together. This could prove true for Mr. Hero. And in fact, if it is, then I understand. I just want to give this route a try before throwing in the towel.

Thank you all for taking time to respond to my post. As always, all questions, comments and concerns are welcome.

MetallicThorn

There is a post, I'm quite in awe of. It shocked me to my core and I must admit, left me speechless. Rarely, am I ever without a thought to something. It held a lot of truth to it. Even the truths I was unaware of, now vividly and elegantly poised in front of me.

The only thing I would've changed is,"You have a narrative about what you believe the purpose of being human is, and that is that people grow and evolve so that they can actualize their inner potential and become the most that they can be."

I believe we are sourced in spirit and are spiritual beings having a human experience. In my perspective, the soul is our real nature. Moreover, all of nature is resurrection. Thing's die so that new thing's can be born from their ashes. Our soul's continue to evolve spiritually because of resurrection.

This, however, is simply a play on words.

My point in this response is, "Thank you." This has revolutionized the way I see myself.

Thank you for the response, shootingstar1.

Brokentapestry

MT, this is not an honors level class, where class mates are meeting to debate the existence of the soul. Many people here are limping through their days as their wives, husbands, children, and families are destroyed. You have a quote about empathy on your posts, but you seem to be lacking in that quality. You may be in pain yourself, but you come across as if you are researching your partner and those of us here, and therefore, it is difficult to take you seriously. If you are here for help, then get real. If you are just interested in your own eloquence, then perhaps you should start a personal blog.

MetallicThorn

This is another update on the questions, comments, statements and concerns from your responses.

Someone made the comment,"Hubris."

I'm not quite sure where they got this perception. By no means do I think I have excessive pride or self- confidence. I do stand firm in my thoughts, notions, feelings and convictions but I see nothing wrong with that. I am, as I've stated before, open to all perspectives. I don't say who's right and who's wrong. I do, however, say that's different. I can also agree to disagree with other's.

Another comment was,"It seems like you just want to debate here instead of really LISTEN and be humbled by the sage advice you are receiving."

I assure you, I am not here to debate. As I stated at the beginning of this thread, I would still like to use this platform to vent my thoughts, opinions, notions and feelings. I acknowledge and hear all perspectives shared. In spite of this being a thread, I also thought this was a conversation. What I perceive as a cohesive conversation is being experienced as debate. For that, I do apologize.

Finally, this statement was made,"If you are here for help, then get real."

All along I've said I am here for a heightened sense of awareness of alcoholism due to my relationship. As far as "getting real" is concerned, I've been completely open and honest with everyone. I'm not quite sure how I can be even more open and honest than I am right now.

Thank you for taking time to respond.

ZenMe

Your last post is a rebuttal and now that I think of it i've read similar language somewhere else that you are passing off as your own.

There's something you aren't telling us some strange motive for your behavior in your posts.

In dire reflection of the idiosyncratic dichotomies that have morphed from archetypes of yore synthesized here I am unequivocally convinced you are wasting everyone's time.

Delete.

MetallicThorn

A statement was made,"There's something you aren't telling us some strange motive for your behavior in your posts.

In dire reflection of the idiosyncratic dichotomies that have morphed from archetypes of yore synthesized here I am unequivocally convinced you are wasting everyone's time."

This bothers me deeply. I joined this site in hopes to gain some awareness about alcoholism, in hopes of expressing my feelings and thoughts on my relationship and in hopes of broadening my consciousness to possible paths my relationship could go down. Yet at every turn I somehow seem to be apologizing for how I'm being perceived though my intentions were pure.

I have been open and honest throughout my brief time here. What I know for sure is that I have broadened my awareness of alcoholism, I have vented about my relationship and I have broadened my consciousness to possible paths my relationship could go down.

Now, I feel as though my time has run its course and though I'm not delighted to go, I feel that is the right thing in this case.

My greatest hope is for everyone hear to find their path, my greatest wish is that everyone here find awareness and my greatest blessing is that everyone here remember that empathy is revolutionary.

Thank you all for reaching out to a stranger. I have been both humbled and honored by each and every one of you.

lillamy

I'm focusing in on a couple of things that might seem like details, but still: I would question this. I would question the "it was too late" part. That sounds to me like a rewriting of history. Like his explanation for why he is the way he is, like an excuse for why he can't change and why you should just let him drink and shut out the world, because he's beyond help and has been for a long time...

I said the same thing about AXH. That he doesn't lie. What I found out was that while he believed his own stories, they were fabrications. He created stories to explain to himself why his behavior (drinking, abuse, etc) was OK for him even though it wouldn't be for anyone else.

I do think that you're falling into the trap of the "terminally unique" -- believing that your relationship and "your" alcoholic is different and that different approaches/attitudes/ideas have to apply to you. I'm saying that with a great deal of understanding, because that's exactly how I felt when I first came here. Like nobody could possibly understand because MY AH was different. Sort of a better type of alcoholic because he was an intellectual and functioning. Unfortunately, that changed.

I applaud you for coming back and continuing to talk, even though you're getting quite a bit of pushback from us oldtimers. I came back and left and came back and left here many times because I kept being told things I didn't want to hear. I hope I'm wrong and that your situation is different from everyone else's -- but just in case it's not, please keep coming back.

sunnshinegirl

My AH is so angry and drinks so much, I've spent many years wondering what must have happened to him growing up to make him that way. Now he won't talk about it whether he's drunk or sober and for a long time, I used that excuse to forgive/excuse his behavior. I came from a highly dysfunctional family and I believe we are on a journey all our lives to higher awareness. What I finally realized is I'm on my own personal journey to evolve which means taking care of me and while I might wonder all night long about what happened to make my AH so angry, in the end all that matters is I take care of myself. My AH has no memory either. In a way, whether or not they are abusive or just pitiful, drunks do shut you out. I keep going back to what my therapist told me is that their relationship is with the alcohol. I admire all the goals you have set for yourself. You can love someone with all your heart but it doesn't necessarily work.