Attorney Consult #2

Old 06-05-2013, 09:43 AM
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Attorney Consult #2

Good Afternoon, Friends,

I haven't had much time to post lately, or even read the posts here, but wanted to stop by and give an update of sorts.

Last week (with the P-I-T-A in-law still here), I had a 30-minute phone consultation with a family-law attorney. This one (as opposed to the one I talked to thru my company's EAP program) seemed more experienced and the firm focused only on family law, where the other guy was more broad-based in his experience.

This guy was very blunt, no holds barred, right to business. I liked that about him.

One thing I found interesting was that he said I should pretty much give AW an ultimatum: you have six months (or some sort of timeframe) to clean up your act, get into a program, get counseling for the PTSD and the alcoholism, and be present as a parent 24/7 - or I will file for divorce. He said this tells her that I have a concern, and that I will take measures to protect our son. He said to put it in writing so that she can't come back and say it was never discussed.

I'm not sure I totally agree with this approach. She stopped drinking for almost 2 years, from the time she found out she was pregnant until done breastfeeding. She 'might' be able to do it for 6 months just to p*ss me off, and then go right back to it. It would also cause a HUGE load of animosity in the household that the dear boy doesn't need to experience.

I think I should tell her, one more time, that I have concerns, and then let her figure out what to do with it. Then, if she does nothing, then file and get custody based on documentation I've been doing. I think sending a warning-shot over the bow will only incense her at this point.
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Old 06-05-2013, 09:52 AM
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The attorney wants you to LOOK GOOD in court.

It is a "victim status" worshiping world. Not the real practice, mind you -- just the look.

On the other side of things, it also looks controlling, which is then layers and layers more of rationalization why it is or is not. Again all based on Looks Good and Who Is the Victim.

You are well enough to know that is ALL just layers of BS.

Only one real sort from this side of the keyboard -- What is best for the kid?

Figure that is about where you are coming from, too, what with "dad" in your name.
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Old 06-05-2013, 09:53 AM
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I see your concern but "not drinking for 6 months" is NOT the same as getting "into a program" or getting "counseling for the PTSD and the alcoholism" or being "present as a parent 24/7". So just stopping to **** you off does not actually meet the requirement. What will be different about telling her one more time that you're concerned? She hasn't done anything with the information so far, and she's had it for awhile.

I think though it is worth considering...what would happen if she did follow the ultimatum to the letter? What if there was an actual effort at recovery? What would be different for you, if anything? Just something to think about.

Good on you for getting a second consultation and continuing to explore your options.
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Old 06-05-2013, 10:02 AM
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CoD,
What about putting the concerns in writing to her? (without the 6 month deadline)
It may serve the purpose the attorney had in mind without creating the animosity that you don't want at home for the sake of the little one.

Just a comment to share from my experience....I tried very hard to keep the peace in the home by not confronting my A (for years), all the while quietly and secretly thinking about how I needed to change my life. I believe with all my heart that my motivation was keeping things as peaceful as possible for my young boys. However, I know now that this was not my only motivation. The sake of the boys was the motivation that I could feel good about...my other motivations for avoiding taking certain steps did not make me feel as good. FWIW :-)

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Old 06-05-2013, 10:38 AM
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You have to remember that when it comes to court, it’s not what you know it’s what you can prove!!

This attorney is suggesting something in writing that clearly shows your concern and conclusion if she does not seek professional help.

We can all talk about moving forward, doing what’s best for ourselves and the children. We can get all our ducks in a row, have an attorney, a plan…………but it’s always the “saying it out loud part” that seems to bring us the most ambivalence.

With every action there is a re-action and how she is going to re-act is how she is going to re-act…….you can’t do anything about that.

And so, if she cleans up for a short period of time, who’s to say to don’t just continue on with the divorce at that point.
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:55 PM
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COD-

When it comes down to it, I think the question I would ask myself is, "Are you ready to leave now? Are you done with chances?" I think that by the time we consulting an attorney you are ready to have you marriage over. My feeling is that you would be able to testify to all the times you spoke with her about changing your families situation and her role in it and that would be just as convincing as a letter you wrote. Just my opinion though.

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Old 06-05-2013, 06:48 PM
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Did the attorney say anything about your responsibility to get professional counseling with a specialist in families of addiction now? Because I think if I were a family court judge, I would want to look at how the sober spouse had been directly addressing the issue of alcoholism in the family.

I don't know much about the law, COD, but out here where I live on the west coast, when cases like this end up in court, the sober spouse is often ordered by the judge into codependency counseling--sometimes for a full year-- and to mandatory attendance at Al-Anon as a requirement for custody. I have been in meetings with people who were mandated to attend them.

Maybe it would be a good idea to get a jump on those actions now?

There are members with legal expertise on the forum, and of course, plenty of people who have dealt with custody issues. You are in the right place!
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Old 06-05-2013, 11:18 PM
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I see his point but only you can best say how well the "action plan" would be received. You know your wife and if you think it would start WW3 and produce nothing positive then make a call based on your own experience with your wife. Here's where you have to manage your Lawyer to what you know what works and doesn't work with your specific situation, (as if you didn't already have enough on your plate).

If you decide to do the letter use email it so you have date/time stamps and any record of her response. You don't have to start with.. upon advice from counsel.. yada yada. You could always say putting it in writing let you compose your thoughts in a concerned and loving way.

Or you might just pull the trigger on filing an haveing her served like I did. But in my case she was expecting to be served at that point so it didn't just fall out of the sky.
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Old 06-05-2013, 11:53 PM
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There might be some legal or tactical benefit from that 6mo suggestion that is legit so I won't comment on that angle of it.

I did not really have a 'plan' (and that showed- ha!) but from an emotional stand point the 6mo suggestion has a lot of downfalls IMO. What if at the end of the 6mos she has, on paper, met many of your demands and yet you still feel like you want a divorce? As someone else mentioned, sometimes there is just to much water under that bridge. At other times we just 'know' when someone is manipulating us and the situation by 'meeting our demands on paper' and yet things remain very toxic, unbearable, unstable.

It is a lot to think about and the laws in your state will make a difference. Some states are easier to get divorced in than others.
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Old 06-06-2013, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by EnglishGarden View Post
Did the attorney say anything about your responsibility to get professional counseling with a specialist in families of addiction now? Because I think if I were a family court judge, I would want to look at how the sober spouse had been directly addressing the issue of alcoholism in the family.

I don't know much about the law, COD, but out here where I live on the west coast, when cases like this end up in court, the sober spouse is often ordered by the judge into codependency counseling--sometimes for a full year-- and to mandatory attendance at Al-Anon as a requirement for custody. I have been in meetings with people who were mandated to attend them.

Maybe it would be a good idea to get a jump on those actions now?

There are members with legal expertise on the forum, and of course, plenty of people who have dealt with custody issues. You are in the right place!
Ms. EG,

I did ask both attorneys if getting into some sort of Al-Anon program would help in regards to getting custody, etc. They both said that the court probably wouldn't care about that, but that if I feel it would be beneficial to me personally, then I should do it.

So, at least in Central Ohio, it doesn't seem to help me with the case. Not saying it wouldn't help me deal with 'life' better, but not in a legal sense.

C-OH Dad
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Old 06-06-2013, 04:35 AM
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Originally Posted by 4MyBoys View Post
COD-

When it comes down to it, I think the question I would ask myself is, "Are you ready to leave now? Are you done with chances?" I think that by the time we consulting an attorney you are ready to have you marriage over. My feeling is that you would be able to testify to all the times you spoke with her about changing your families situation and her role in it and that would be just as convincing as a letter you wrote. Just my opinion though.

4MyBoys
4MB,

I've been ready for quite some time - in my head the marriage is dead and gone. However, and it's a big 'however', there is the question of custody, and I want it all. And that's why I believe I need more proof and more documentation of her actions before I move forward.

I know I will leave at some point, and when God decides when that point is, I'll be ready. I'm a planner, I need to have a plan - that's why I'm having these consults, that's why I'm figuring out what my options are. I know that everything can't be planned out, but I need to be closer than I am now.

I thank you all for your support.

C-OH Dad
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Old 06-06-2013, 05:16 AM
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I personally like the approach of the attorney... It is clearly communicating your boundaries and gives the A an opportunity to make informed choices. There is a book called redemptive divorce that explores this path through a biblical lens.

That being said if you in your heart are "done" and you know it then why take that path? If you believe there is hope and you still "love" her (complicated subject as we all know) ... Then a great (not good) counselor might be helpful.

As we know the fairy tale endings often elude those of us who love As... My XA is drinking himself to death in Vegas and my brother got arrested for his 4th DUI last night.

Seek wise counsel... Pray... Follow where your HP leads you....
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Old 06-06-2013, 06:34 AM
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I am in the exact same situation with my DH. I visited a divorce attorney and got advice. I then saw a therapist to help sort out what I should do. The therapist I saw and a coworker who now works in addiction therapy both said I should confront my husband one last time and make it clear that if he does not get into a program and get help with his alcoholism that I will be filing for divorce. They didn't suggest adding a timeframe but I like it because it creates a sense of urgency. I did put it in writing with phone numbers to the local detox hospital program, AA and names and phone numbers of addiction therapist to follow the inpatient detox. I have my letter to ADH all typed up and ready to give to him this weekend. Since we have young kids I feel it is one last attempt to save the family before pulling the plug and filing for divorce. It helps me to feel I truly did everything I could to help the situation. I am also going ahead and getting my back-up plan to leave ready in case he doesn't agree or doesn't attempt to stay sober. This site has helped me tremendously since I found it. I feel stronger now and more in control. I know no matter what happens, I am going to be OK. I am hoping for the best and planning for the worst. Good luck in your attempts. It is tough but necessary for things to finally change.
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Old 06-06-2013, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by CentralOhioDad View Post
4MB,

I've been ready for quite some time - in my head the marriage is dead and gone. However, and it's a big 'however', there is the question of custody, and I want it all. And that's why I believe I need more proof and more documentation of her actions before I move forward.

I know I will leave at some point, and when God decides when that point is, I'll be ready. I'm a planner, I need to have a plan - that's why I'm having these consults, that's why I'm figuring out what my options are. I know that everything can't be planned out, but I need to be closer than I am now.

I thank you all for your support.

C-OH Dad
I feel the same about my marriage. That little voice in my head has been telling me "its over" and "you need to get out" for years. In my head and heart I feel he is not going to be able to stay sober longterm and I know I will be leaving eventually. But what is best for the kids is trying to give their dad a chance to get sober so at least for the future when he does have visitation there is a chance he will still be sober. I have ignored the problem for many years and only confronted him once a few years ago about it. This will be my final ultimatum and then I am ready to move forward and make the necessary changes.
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Old 06-06-2013, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by CentralOhioDad View Post
I know I will leave at some point, and when God decides when that point is, I'll be ready. I'm a planner, I need to have a plan - that's why I'm having these consults, that's why I'm figuring out what my options are. I know that everything can't be planned out, but I need to be closer than I am now.

I thank you all for your support.

C-OH Dad
I think that is a very healthy and realistic view of your situation ~

Basically admitting "it is what it is" and now I'm ready for the "Next Right Thing"

Being Honest, Open and Willing are great steps in taking care of ourselves ~

wishing you & yours the best

PINK hugs!
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Old 06-06-2013, 09:03 AM
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I had a number of "soft" conversations with Mr. Arch - warnings that I was not going to tolerate his behavior and that I would leave. They were about expressing my boundaries with fair notice - not making an ultimatum. I then created a list of my boundaries - my requirments for any person I woudl live with and on which I will not compromise. Then, I filed for divorce, had him served and told him that I was doing so because I love him, but will not live with him and his current choices. I told him if things stayed as they are, then I would procecute the divorce to the end, but that he certainly was free to make changes and see if I was still willing to talk. After a few days of extreme anger, he wanted to talk about my boundary list.

Who knows if anything will come out of it. He now knows that the clock is ticking. But I post this just to suggest that actually filing for divorce is not the end - but just the begining of a process. It certainly got my husband's attention in a way that no conversation before did. We are having honest conversations for the very first time in over a year and he has agreed to have a psych evaluation, follow any recomendations and go to family therapy, and I have agreed to a specific waiting period before we seperate to evaulate whether he is really committed to this or not.

The key for me clearly articulating my new ground rules for myself in writing, and making it clear that I was firm on these boundaries by filing for divorce. I think this made for a much better statement to him then an ultimatium - if you don't do this, I will do this.... Instead, he knows what I am going to do, and that he might be able to change my mind if he can meet my boundaries, if he is so inclined.

This, by the way, is a very freeing place to be. I know what my path is and I am not being tossed around by the desire to react to him.
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Old 06-06-2013, 12:53 PM
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I thought I would share with you what I did when I finally left. I had already consulted with attorneys also. They day came when I could not be around him another day. I did write a letter when I left. I wanted to be able to get all my thoughts straight and as clear as possible. I let him know how his actions had been making me feel and how unhealthy the way were living was for me, him and the boys. I believe I actually used the "I committed to marriage vows and not a suicide pact" saying I learned here, I think from Mike. I did spell out in the letter that I was moving out that day and gave my conditions that I expected needed to be consistantly met before I even thought about moving back or even working on our marriage any longer. ( this might cover your trying to fix things issues, I brought up marriage counceling etc.)

I was at a point in my marriage the "sticking it out" to see if he could change in any set point of time, was just not healthy for me any longer. I really did hope that he would get his act together, but alas.......

For your courtroom purposes, you can always take a screen shot of the properties of the word file to show when it was created. I did this for court after the fact. Right click the document and scroll to properties. You can see when it was created. Take a screen shot, Voila! Looks very official in court. I am great at this stuff if you ever need help. I'm a color coding, make visuals of missed visits, print out copies of every mean text kind of gal!

Also, if you can get yourself a councelor who has worked with the courts with children and divorces, find one for yourself ASAP. If you are a good match they will be invaluable. Mine has helped me to deal with my ex but also has given me tons of advice and eased my mind; many many times on ways to approach situations so that not only will I be doing the best by my kids but look good in the courts eyes.

Good luck COD. You will know when the time is right and how to do it.

4MyBoys
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Old 06-07-2013, 08:04 PM
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Documentation is always great for court. I think there should be a letter like your lawyer suggests. I'd make a few changes, though, namely...
(1) maybe instead of stating "sober for six months or I'm filing for divorce" to keep it a bit more wishy-washy (a.k.a. "reevaluate our relationship in 6 months" or something to that effect, as if you decide to a divorce anyway despite any of her efforts it doesn't look like you not holding up your end of the agreement
(2) be specific about your concerns especially with regard to how they affect your child but don't be specific about the resolution you're looking for. You don't want to give her a checklist to follow, you want to make her think about what she needs to do to resolve the issues you present, as her thought process in this will show you and the court whether she is truly trying or simply hoping to dodge her rightful consequences. If she has a checklist to meet, you can't show her motives as easily. (Of course I'd spell out the obvious, like not drinking when she's the only adult in the house watching your child, or no drinking and driving with your child if she has a habit of that, but leave the other things in the gray and let her figure out a plan).
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