the person inside..
Member
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 5
IMO t's a waste of time and energy. It won't make him stop drinking, and he knows the person he is inside much more than you or anyone else, and he probably despises him. From what I've read/observed A's almost universally have an extremely low sense of self-worth.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 17
anvilheadII
I know can do nothing to change the thoughts and life choices of another person.. My struggle lies in.. when to I give well deserved support, when do I turn away and wait, when are they really being "real", how do I know when what they say is truly from the heart??
I know can do nothing to change the thoughts and life choices of another person.. My struggle lies in.. when to I give well deserved support, when do I turn away and wait, when are they really being "real", how do I know when what they say is truly from the heart??
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,452
The alcoholic is not two people. The person inside and the person outside are all one person. You cannot wish away the half you don't want.
They have made the choice to be who they are. They own that choice.
They can choose to stop drinking, stop all addictions when - IF - they want to. If they don't make that first choice, to not take that drink, their alcoholism will progress. That is the nature of the disease.
You can't stop it. The three C's are:
You didn't cause it.
You can't control it.
You can't cure it.
It is heartwrenching to be the partner of an alcoholic. At first, we feel that if we try hard enough, we can reach in and find them, the real them, and pull them out again. We can't.
Then we feel that it must be our fault that we didn't try hard enough to get through to them. It isn't our fault.
Then we feel that we must have caused their problem or made it worse and if only we were better or different or something that we aren't, then they would stop drinking. We are not that powerful.
Then we become angry that they are treating us so badly and we try harder to control them and get them to stop. We can't.
Then we realize that they will do what they will do, and there is nothing we can do to alter their course.
Then we begin to wonder what we can do, and we eventually realize that all we can do is mind our own path, make our own choices.
And finally we realize that they have the right to choose their own path, whether or not we think it is healthy, bad, wrong, destructive.
Then we give them the dignity to choose their own life and we focus on choosing our own life, for ourselves, not for them or for anyone else.
Sometimes our alcoholic partner will then choose to never take another drink. More often they will continue on their alcoholic path.
By now, we have some realization of where our own choices enabled them, as alcoholics, to not face the consequences of their actions.
If we are wise, we let them go their own way, whether or not it means that we stay with them or we leave. It is their right to live their own life. And it is our right to live our own life.
There is great pain on this path toward enlightenment. We feel intense grief, anger, regret, loss, and eventually, freedom and joy. We leave behind focusing our life energies on trying to fix someone who doesn't necessarily want to be fixed. Our souls become available to us to follow a path toward living a full, healthy and rewarding life for ourselves. And this leads to a more productive, giving life for us and for those around us.
It is the hardest thing I have ever done. And in the end, I realize that it is the only thing that I could do, the only thing I can do. And I have great sorrow for the loss of what I wanted to be there, but what was only my dream, imposed in a transitory way on someone else. And mixed among the grief and loss, I have more and more contentment and joy. And eventually the balance starts to shift, and I have less grief and sorrow and more peace.
ShootingStar1
They have made the choice to be who they are. They own that choice.
They can choose to stop drinking, stop all addictions when - IF - they want to. If they don't make that first choice, to not take that drink, their alcoholism will progress. That is the nature of the disease.
You can't stop it. The three C's are:
You didn't cause it.
You can't control it.
You can't cure it.
It is heartwrenching to be the partner of an alcoholic. At first, we feel that if we try hard enough, we can reach in and find them, the real them, and pull them out again. We can't.
Then we feel that it must be our fault that we didn't try hard enough to get through to them. It isn't our fault.
Then we feel that we must have caused their problem or made it worse and if only we were better or different or something that we aren't, then they would stop drinking. We are not that powerful.
Then we become angry that they are treating us so badly and we try harder to control them and get them to stop. We can't.
Then we realize that they will do what they will do, and there is nothing we can do to alter their course.
Then we begin to wonder what we can do, and we eventually realize that all we can do is mind our own path, make our own choices.
And finally we realize that they have the right to choose their own path, whether or not we think it is healthy, bad, wrong, destructive.
Then we give them the dignity to choose their own life and we focus on choosing our own life, for ourselves, not for them or for anyone else.
Sometimes our alcoholic partner will then choose to never take another drink. More often they will continue on their alcoholic path.
By now, we have some realization of where our own choices enabled them, as alcoholics, to not face the consequences of their actions.
If we are wise, we let them go their own way, whether or not it means that we stay with them or we leave. It is their right to live their own life. And it is our right to live our own life.
There is great pain on this path toward enlightenment. We feel intense grief, anger, regret, loss, and eventually, freedom and joy. We leave behind focusing our life energies on trying to fix someone who doesn't necessarily want to be fixed. Our souls become available to us to follow a path toward living a full, healthy and rewarding life for ourselves. And this leads to a more productive, giving life for us and for those around us.
It is the hardest thing I have ever done. And in the end, I realize that it is the only thing that I could do, the only thing I can do. And I have great sorrow for the loss of what I wanted to be there, but what was only my dream, imposed in a transitory way on someone else. And mixed among the grief and loss, I have more and more contentment and joy. And eventually the balance starts to shift, and I have less grief and sorrow and more peace.
ShootingStar1
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 17
shootingstar1
You have shared much to digest.. I can truly say I'm not even half way there.. I still struggle with should I unlock the doors to the house or let their home be out on the streets?? Putting my health and well being above theirs takes some getting used to...
You have shared much to digest.. I can truly say I'm not even half way there.. I still struggle with should I unlock the doors to the house or let their home be out on the streets?? Putting my health and well being above theirs takes some getting used to...
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Waterford MI
Posts: 4,202
Putting my health and well being above theirs takes some getting used to...
do you have a higher power GHA? I am assuming yes, if you are a believer in angels
Would your HP want you to hide your talents and gifts behind the bush (so to speak using your BF as the light obstruction) in order to care for another who has his own free will?
I think not. I think you were put on this earth for a much greater purpose. Learn your lesson quickly here, and then go out in the world and change it, you will be much more successful at that.
Beth
Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 505
Originally Posted by ShootingStar1 
The alcoholic is not two people. The person inside and the person outside are all one person. You cannot wish away the half you don't want.
They have made the choice to be who they are. They own that choice.
They can choose to stop drinking, stop all addictions when - IF - they want to. If they don't make that first choice, to not take that drink, their alcoholism will progress. That is the nature of the disease.
You can't stop it. The three C's are:
You didn't cause it.
You can't control it.
You can't cure it.
It is heartwrenching to be the partner of an alcoholic. At first, we feel that if we try hard enough, we can reach in and find them, the real them, and pull them out again. We can't.
Then we feel that it must be our fault that we didn't try hard enough to get through to them. It isn't our fault.
Then we feel that we must have caused their problem or made it worse and if only we were better or different or something that we aren't, then they would stop drinking. We are not that powerful.
Then we become angry that they are treating us so badly and we try harder to control them and get them to stop. We can't.
Then we realize that they will do what they will do, and there is nothing we can do to alter their course.
Then we begin to wonder what we can do, and we eventually realize that all we can do is mind our own path, make our own choices.
And finally we realize that they have the right to choose their own path, whether or not we think it is healthy, bad, wrong, destructive.
Then we give them the dignity to choose their own life and we focus on choosing our own life, for ourselves, not for them or for anyone else.
Sometimes our alcoholic partner will then choose to never take another drink. More often they will continue on their alcoholic path.
By now, we have some realization of where our own choices enabled them, as alcoholics, to not face the consequences of their actions.
If we are wise, we let them go their own way, whether or not it means that we stay with them or we leave. It is their right to live their own life. And it is our right to live our own life.
There is great pain on this path toward enlightenment. We feel intense grief, anger, regret, loss, and eventually, freedom and joy. We leave behind focusing our life energies on trying to fix someone who doesn't necessarily want to be fixed. Our souls become available to us to follow a path toward living a full, healthy and rewarding life for ourselves. And this leads to a more productive, giving life for us and for those around us.
It is the hardest thing I have ever done. And in the end, I realize that it is the only thing that I could do, the only thing I can do. And I have great sorrow for the loss of what I wanted to be there, but what was only my dream, imposed in a transitory way on someone else. And mixed among the grief and loss, I have more and more contentment and joy. And eventually the balance starts to shift, and I have less grief and sorrow and more peace.
ShootingStar1
They have made the choice to be who they are. They own that choice.
They can choose to stop drinking, stop all addictions when - IF - they want to. If they don't make that first choice, to not take that drink, their alcoholism will progress. That is the nature of the disease.
You can't stop it. The three C's are:
You didn't cause it.
You can't control it.
You can't cure it.
It is heartwrenching to be the partner of an alcoholic. At first, we feel that if we try hard enough, we can reach in and find them, the real them, and pull them out again. We can't.
Then we feel that it must be our fault that we didn't try hard enough to get through to them. It isn't our fault.
Then we feel that we must have caused their problem or made it worse and if only we were better or different or something that we aren't, then they would stop drinking. We are not that powerful.
Then we become angry that they are treating us so badly and we try harder to control them and get them to stop. We can't.
Then we realize that they will do what they will do, and there is nothing we can do to alter their course.
Then we begin to wonder what we can do, and we eventually realize that all we can do is mind our own path, make our own choices.
And finally we realize that they have the right to choose their own path, whether or not we think it is healthy, bad, wrong, destructive.
Then we give them the dignity to choose their own life and we focus on choosing our own life, for ourselves, not for them or for anyone else.
Sometimes our alcoholic partner will then choose to never take another drink. More often they will continue on their alcoholic path.
By now, we have some realization of where our own choices enabled them, as alcoholics, to not face the consequences of their actions.
If we are wise, we let them go their own way, whether or not it means that we stay with them or we leave. It is their right to live their own life. And it is our right to live our own life.
There is great pain on this path toward enlightenment. We feel intense grief, anger, regret, loss, and eventually, freedom and joy. We leave behind focusing our life energies on trying to fix someone who doesn't necessarily want to be fixed. Our souls become available to us to follow a path toward living a full, healthy and rewarding life for ourselves. And this leads to a more productive, giving life for us and for those around us.
It is the hardest thing I have ever done. And in the end, I realize that it is the only thing that I could do, the only thing I can do. And I have great sorrow for the loss of what I wanted to be there, but what was only my dream, imposed in a transitory way on someone else. And mixed among the grief and loss, I have more and more contentment and joy. And eventually the balance starts to shift, and I have less grief and sorrow and more peace.
ShootingStar1
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
Yup, Star hit the nail on the head. These are incredibly frustrating truths to wrap our heads around, but as they say, the truth shall set you free.
I've been "around" AA and Al-Anon for over 30 years (when my first husband got sober), am now close to five years sober, myself, have known hundreds of sober alcoholics who have recovered, and I have never yet heard one of them say he or she got sober because a loved one "reached them" or "built up their self-esteem" so they felt they were worth saving. Every single one, without exception that I can think of, finally got into recovery because he or she was desperate enough to want it. And the only way for an alcoholic to get to that critical mass of desperation and self-loathing (and yes, self-loathing basically IS part of the disease and a critical part of motivation to recover--if someone feels great about him/herself while drinking, why bother to change?) is to allow them to fully experience the consequences of their actions.
I quit drinking because I was disgusted enough with myself and scared enough and hopeless enough to drag my butt into the rooms and say, "Help!"
I've been "around" AA and Al-Anon for over 30 years (when my first husband got sober), am now close to five years sober, myself, have known hundreds of sober alcoholics who have recovered, and I have never yet heard one of them say he or she got sober because a loved one "reached them" or "built up their self-esteem" so they felt they were worth saving. Every single one, without exception that I can think of, finally got into recovery because he or she was desperate enough to want it. And the only way for an alcoholic to get to that critical mass of desperation and self-loathing (and yes, self-loathing basically IS part of the disease and a critical part of motivation to recover--if someone feels great about him/herself while drinking, why bother to change?) is to allow them to fully experience the consequences of their actions.
I quit drinking because I was disgusted enough with myself and scared enough and hopeless enough to drag my butt into the rooms and say, "Help!"
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,243
Great posts and great insights.
I excelled in obsessing (yes...that's what happens) in how I could get my XA sober and I did!!! Many times. I used every manipulation and strength of will. Having a police car and handcuffs helped me get him to rehab against his will. This went on for years... but funny thing... he always, always relapsed! Always.
So... you can make yourself sicker than they are (my addiction was being his "savior" and being "right" that he was a worthwhile "special" human being and worth loving) and you can drive yourself crazy trying to force a round peg in a square hole for years and years....
and then you wake up and realize you have lost yourself...you have lost your joy and even your love for your A is turning to hate and nothing changed... NOTHING. They are drinking just like they were when you first realized they were alcoholic!
Nothing changes if nothing changes. I learned I am not God. I am not superhuman and do not have the power to force another human being to change. Even if I use extreme manipulative tactics and they "love me". I learned how to force behavior from my own alcoholic father (imagine that ... rolling eyes).
And here is the worst part of my discovery about my sick self. My obsession with "winning against the beast of alcoholism" was completely self defeating because my XA KNEW I would never, never, never GIVE UP because I am wired to win at all costs and he was the love of my life.
So... he used that. over and over and over again. I was his insurance. If was in jail I bonded him out and got him a lawyer. If he was in the hospital I got him into detox. If he couldn't pay his child support I did. I hovered, helicoptered and cleaned up his messes... for years and that comfy landing spot helped to keep him in his addiction and diapers.
So... I am a lot older and finally got a clue after years of stinkin thinkin... I curbed him and he is back in Vegas. He sends me ridiculous photos, crazy emails (he is blocked on my phone) and he "loves me"....
words. empty words. meaningless without action.
nothing changes if nothing changes. And only one person controls addiction... and it ain't us.
If we detach with love and do not enable the addiction then they can choose to get sober or not... swap us off or not... and that would be out of our "control" and as a certified control freak I didn't want that.
But that is what he really, really needed and would have helped him more to find his way out... or not.
MY XA has made it clear what his choice is... he is going to drink and it looks like it will be to his death despite the fact that he can get sober and stay sober. He knows very well how to do that and has done it many, many times.
He does not want that. He wants to drink. He ALWAYS wanted to drink. He just wanted a loving enabler to help him do it in the comfort of my home with me to snuggle with and pay the bills.
It took me 4 years to figure that out. Alcoholics are chameleons... they change color when they sense they are losing their enabler... trust me... he could do the recovery act like an academy award performer. But deep down in his heart...he knew he would drink again... his mistress alcohol was his real true love and he never intended to give her up forever.
FOUR YEARS of focusing my entire life on him. For nothing.
I excelled in obsessing (yes...that's what happens) in how I could get my XA sober and I did!!! Many times. I used every manipulation and strength of will. Having a police car and handcuffs helped me get him to rehab against his will. This went on for years... but funny thing... he always, always relapsed! Always.
So... you can make yourself sicker than they are (my addiction was being his "savior" and being "right" that he was a worthwhile "special" human being and worth loving) and you can drive yourself crazy trying to force a round peg in a square hole for years and years....
and then you wake up and realize you have lost yourself...you have lost your joy and even your love for your A is turning to hate and nothing changed... NOTHING. They are drinking just like they were when you first realized they were alcoholic!
Nothing changes if nothing changes. I learned I am not God. I am not superhuman and do not have the power to force another human being to change. Even if I use extreme manipulative tactics and they "love me". I learned how to force behavior from my own alcoholic father (imagine that ... rolling eyes).
And here is the worst part of my discovery about my sick self. My obsession with "winning against the beast of alcoholism" was completely self defeating because my XA KNEW I would never, never, never GIVE UP because I am wired to win at all costs and he was the love of my life.
So... he used that. over and over and over again. I was his insurance. If was in jail I bonded him out and got him a lawyer. If he was in the hospital I got him into detox. If he couldn't pay his child support I did. I hovered, helicoptered and cleaned up his messes... for years and that comfy landing spot helped to keep him in his addiction and diapers.
So... I am a lot older and finally got a clue after years of stinkin thinkin... I curbed him and he is back in Vegas. He sends me ridiculous photos, crazy emails (he is blocked on my phone) and he "loves me"....
words. empty words. meaningless without action.
nothing changes if nothing changes. And only one person controls addiction... and it ain't us.
If we detach with love and do not enable the addiction then they can choose to get sober or not... swap us off or not... and that would be out of our "control" and as a certified control freak I didn't want that.
But that is what he really, really needed and would have helped him more to find his way out... or not.
MY XA has made it clear what his choice is... he is going to drink and it looks like it will be to his death despite the fact that he can get sober and stay sober. He knows very well how to do that and has done it many, many times.
He does not want that. He wants to drink. He ALWAYS wanted to drink. He just wanted a loving enabler to help him do it in the comfort of my home with me to snuggle with and pay the bills.
It took me 4 years to figure that out. Alcoholics are chameleons... they change color when they sense they are losing their enabler... trust me... he could do the recovery act like an academy award performer. But deep down in his heart...he knew he would drink again... his mistress alcohol was his real true love and he never intended to give her up forever.
FOUR YEARS of focusing my entire life on him. For nothing.
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