OpenSky

Hiya

I am here after reading up on forums to do with boundaries. Setting boundaries is where I need to start to get myself out of the stuck anger and pain, and complete exhaustion from keeping it all together and ticking along - as mothers do. 17 year marriage. Have attended Holyoake program - is the equivalent of Al Anon program in Western Australia for partners of alcoholics. unctioning alcoholic husband who suffers depression. Teenage self harming daughter with Ocd and eating disorder. Also daughter entering puberty- displaying the need to smooth and fix stuff. Scary. Husband bullies teen daughter.

I have been writing some draft boundaries to my AH:

1. If you will not look me in the eye and discuss our marriage and how we both are feeling I will ask you to commit to a time to do so. If you will not do so, I will ask you to come to marriage counselling, and if you refuse to do so, I will examine all of my options, which include asking you to leave, or leaving myself if you refuse to do so.

2.If you choose to drink alcohol, I ask that you sleep in the guest room, or if that is not available, elsewhere. If you continue to drink alcohol, I will examine all of my options, which include asking you to leave or leaving if you refuse to do so.

3. If you consume alcohol I will not share the family meal with you.

4. If you consume alcohol, I will not discuss family matters whilst you are consuming. alcohol. I will not engage with you regarding any parenting or relationship issues whilst you are under the influence of alcohol.

5. If you bully, humiliate or belittle our daughter I will remove myself and both of our children, and ask that you attend counselling. If you continue this behaviour, I will examine all of my options, which include asking you to leave or leaving with our children should you refuse to leave.

I am open to improving these. Trying to get calm after feeling like I really am totally over the whole business. Is it too late? I am not sure I can muster a lot of love anymore for my husband. Lies and promises and wearing anger and negativity. I had been stuck in numb, to the point where we all seemed to be "functioning" but really detaching and suppressing, and it was hiding all the real stuff. That welling of sadness and hurt and anger that threatens to burst forth and wash us all away with it. I am doing counselling now, and have had a bit of a mid life transformation into self care and coming back to things I love to do, but haven't for so long. Creating,making music, laughing. with friends, doing new things. Maybe seems like the more I spread my wings, the more stuck and angry my husband gets. Is this change happening as it needs to happen? Do I need to actively make it more so? Or do I just keep plugging. away at learning to take care of me and my children,and the rest will follow somehow? Thats the big question isn't it? Will it get better?
Thank you for some amazing stickies and amazing threads. It helps to feel less lonely.

Pelican

Welcome to the SR family!

You have found a wonderful resource of information and support. I hope you will make yourself at home. Read, vent and post as often as needed. We understand, and you are not alone.

When I first arrived, I learned of the three C's of my husband's alcoholism:

I did not Cause it
I can not Control it
I will not Cure it

I didn't understand the concept at first, and it took me some time to accept the guidelines. I was sure that I could change the situation if I could find the right formula. Unfortunately, I was powerless to change the behavior of another adult.

I did learn that the only person I have power to change, was myself. I could change how I reacted to the situation. I could change what I was willing to accept. I could change my attitude.

I believe personal boundaries are an effective way to take care of ourselves. I decide what behavior I am willing to accept and what behavior I am unwilling to accept. Then I take action to protect myself from the unacceptable behavior.

In the above paragraph, I used personal pronouns: I statements. Personal boundaries are *personal* . They define my territory of control = myself. I have heard two ways to describe my territory:

Staying in my own hoola hoop &

Keeping my side of the Street Clean

If I am putting limits on another adult, then I am entering their hoola-hoop and trying to change their behavior. I usually end up frustrated, exhausted and angry after they fail to meet my expectations.

The first example of a boundary that you gave:
Personal boundaries would look like:

1. I will not enter a conversation with someone who is not actively listening and sharing. If I am unable to have open, honest communication in my personal relationships ~ then I need to examine my options to find a way of having my needs met.

(This change in my behavior is a personal commitment to myself, and I do not need to share it with the person I am having the issue with. If there is lack of communication currently, more talking will not change the situation)

Notice the acceptable boundaries are within my control. I will not start a conversation with someone who is distracted. I would be wasting my precious time and energy. If I continue to fail at communication with this person, I have the right to remove myself from the situation. However, I do not have control over changing the other person.

Do you see the difference?

Stick around, we have some words of wisdom in the sticky posts at the top of this main forum page. There are some excellent articles about boundaries in those posts.

LexieCat

GREAT post from Pelican--great job of explaining what boundaries are, and are not. The boundaries are yours, not his. You can't put a fence around him telling him where he can/cannot go, but you can put one around yourself and your child to protect yourselves. When those boundaries are crossed, you act in accordance with what you need to do to be safe and happy.

I wouldn't expect an alcoholic to sit down and discuss "feelings"--it is a completely selfish disease, and he isn't even in touch with his own feelings, much less able to understand and act in accordance with yours.

It sounds like you have a lot on your plate. I'm sure this situation is not helping your daughter--even if her disorders are not attributable to the situation at home, it almost certainly is exacerbating her problems.

Has he expressed ANY desire to get sober? If not, you are probably wasting your time waiting for him to change. I think I'd start making plans for an exit. You might want to consult a lawyer to find out what your rights would be if you separate or divorce. Sometimes there are considerations you should take into account when you are making your plans that could affect how things go, from a legal standpoint, down the road.

CeciliaV

Hi OpenSky - sorry for what brought you here, but welcome to SR.

GREAT replies from Pelican & LC above. Learning that boundaries are for ME has been a huge eye-opener. I don't have to communicate them with others if I don't want to. I'm still working through exactly what my boundaries are, but as I work on rediscovering myself and on my own recovery, they become a little clearer to me.

There are great resources here. There's also some good books out there. I just read "Everything Changes" by Beverly Conyers and "Getting Them Sober" by Toby Drews (a bit dated and it didn't speak to me but many people do highly recommend it). I'm working on "Get Your Loved One Sober" now - it's put out by Smart Recovery, and I've been attending online F&F meetings for a few weeks now. It's been helpful in reminding me to take care of myself and to communicate in healthy ways (and to not try to communicate with a drunk since it's as beneficial as talking to a head of lettuce). They do have an Australian web presence for family members here - I took a quick peek at the worksheets they posted up, and they're pretty good...they're similar to the F&F workbook that they sell here in the US.

It sounds like you're already working to focus more on yourself - good for you! Keep at it! Just keep putting one foot in front of the others. Your AH may balk at your steps, but keep going. Just as it's up to you to work on your own recovery, it's up to him to work on his or not. He may see you moving forward and want to move forward in a healthy way too, or he may not. Either way, it's best that you take good care of yourself and your kids. Keep reaching out - keep posting, reading, learning.

Sending you strength, hope, and hugs.

dandylion

Dear OpenSky, a child living i n an alcoholic home is being damaged--even if they aren't "showing" it at the time. I believe that yours are screaming the effects. The teen years are sooo critical--and they tend to act out what is going on inside them--because they do not yet have the full skills to do so.

I do hear that you are concerned about your family--and I agree to get help for the children as quickly as possible. You are an adult--you can recover--but, the children are so m uch more vulnerable because they are still forming.

Often, we mothers can do for our children what we are loath to do for ourselves.

I say this to you in support.

very sincerely, dandylion

OpenSky

Thankyou Pelican,
Just the clarity I was seeking. I do see the difference.. The three Cs are a handy thing to keep at the back of my head at all times. Keeping myself quite clearly in my own hula hoop is obviously my big challenge. Big challenge amoungst a zillion big challenges. I am amazed at how moved I feel at all the replies. I feel teared up probably because I feel heard, by people who understand, rather than people who don't understand and simply feel burdened and worried, yet helpless to ffer guidance - ie my lovely Mum.
than you again.

OpenSky

I think the hardest part is that he clearly says he needs to stop drinking, and decides to do so. He then may do so for a week, two weeks, sometimes even a month or two months. But then of course the cycle does its thing and back it slips in. He doesn't think that help would be helpful. There aren't too many things easily available here. We are in a rural small town, a couple hours from the nearest centre fully equipped with services and support. Low income kind of means its difficult to add a new financial commitment to the mix, and of course, there are major anonymity issues n a town of 1000 people. There is counselling available at no cost ( for the moment, until the funding rug is pulled out from under an excellent organisation...) And I access counselling myself through this service, and have let my AH know what is available. So the hard part, is that he does not acknowledge that he needs help to do what he says he needs to do, and to move beyond the never ending circle. The hard part for me is that his drinking has so slowly come to run my life,and no doubt there are many who would simply put up with the kinds of behaviours my ah does. They aren't impossible to live with, does that make sense? He is not verbally or physically abusive, he is simply negative, grumpy, repeating, lecturing, talking over people,
self centred and unpleasant. For me as a life partner, he wears me out and doesn't make me feel loved and supported. Physical intimacy is rare. So the hard part is establishing what is not ok, and learning to know that my needs are important,not me being needy or overly demanding.

Yeah, I read all these posts and it is so sad to hear my story over and over and over, yet mine isn't terrible and acute, it, it grinding and never ending cycling. Terrible and acute in some ways would be clearer. Oops, I have dribbled on for a bit more than I what I planned to just answer the question as to whether or not my ah sees a need to give up drinking. Short answer yes. Long answer will he undertake something different to really effect sustainable change in his life? Probably no.

Thank you for your compassionate listening and clarity!

OpenSky

I can see that I need to keep learning to care for myself and for my children. For some bizarre reason, I get hung up on logistics or detail. So I don't want to share a bed with a person who is drunk. Do I ask him to go elsewhere? Do I just quietly remove myself? Does that then equate to a punishment or sulky tit for tat? It seems so petty to get hung on the detail, and confusing. I have contemplated moving rooms completely, but in my situation, the message gets distorted and somehow, some crazy how I end up feeling over dramatic and stupid. Thats the very very subtle undercurrent of abuse here I think. It is so subtle that it is barely there and barely discernible. So subtle, maybe its my own imagination or my own pattern of weakness hidden in my patterns of strength.

And so the detail, rather than the clear bigger picture is what gets me distressed and confused. I don't want to share an evening family meal with a drunk and lecturing person. Do I quietly remove myself? Do I ask him to leave the table? Do I remove myself and the girls? The hard part is I am also trying to strengthen to my children that " we" my husband and I,are the parents. And that we as the parents are a unit. But we're not are we??! I can't co parent with someone who does things that I completely see as dysfunctional. So I am back to parenting the lot, him included somehow.

I'll get there. I'll keep looking for pennies to drop. I guess I have been reluctant to really acknowledge that the problem is real,is getting worse,and is killing my own natural joy and damaging the lives of my children. The problem is real. It is getting worse, in that his behaviour is getting worse when he drinks ( strangely he drinks less than he did years ago) and the health situation of my older daughter crucially needs his toxic relationship and way of relating to her to stop. Now.

Sadly I don't think she will ever get what she truly needs from him, which is his love and approval. Or not until she is past needing it. And sadly, my love and approval doesn't seem to fill the hole left by a father's approval and love for a teenage daughter. Fathering is such a deeply precious and important role that he just ain't gonna do whole she is still with us. Even if he does embark on a journey to sustainable recovery, it will be too late for that for her. And if we leave, or he leaves, of course the father will be removed.

I have checked out the link to Smart Recovery. I will do some more research about what is available as online. Interestingly, at work we have just commenced a partnership with RuralinReach, which is a project conducted by the Western Australian Womens Health Centre, and is delivered via television broadcast Community Talks, and also IP Video conference counselling for women and their families. This part of the service I believe is a key for rural support, and really, all the counselling, Drug and Alcohol programs for both users and family and friends are not available to people in rural areas in Australia. The population and the issues with confidentiality in small communities make it very difficult. I have wanted some guinea pigs to start the ball rolling to learn the booking system for the counselling available through RuralinReach and to use IP video conferencing in a counselling application, to see how the system feels for a client. I may indeed start with myself or my eldest daughter, or indeed myself and both of my daughters.

Thank you again for your compassion and support. I can see that my part in this cycle is so subtle and so firmly interwoven, extracting those delicate but very tightly woven strands to begin the unravelling is like pulling at a super strong cloth, that won't give. And then I want to slash it to bits and burn it, but it won't be destroyed like that. It persists even so. I am so tired.

OpenSky

Mmm, thank you for helping me to keep firmly in perspective that yes, focus on my children is what needs to be number 1. The hard part is always the detail, and some of the intricacies of family dynamics. Certainly the situation has become unworkable as it is for my eldest child, and that is probably the tipping point for me really. The sad part is that probably the most toxic and damaging element to my children is how I deal with my husbands alcohol abuse and behaviour, not his actual alcohol abuse and behaviour. Because they are looking to me to control and smooth over, to fix things as I seemingly have always done, obviously in an ever increasing desperate failing as it is an impossible and fruitless task. So removal precipitously is certainly not the immediate quick fix for them. Especially my younger child, who loves her Dad and loves her family and sees my hurt and anger as unreasonable. My work on how I do stuff is the long term help for them, and modelling for them, but everything takes so much time and unlearning, and the more people who are interwoven into the problems and habitual behaviours, the harder the shifts are to make. The time it takes to effect real change is stressful when kids are in the mix, because for them, time is so precious and vital.

Thank you Dandylion for you caring and support.

FeelingGreat

Hi Open Sky, I can certainly relate to your geographical situation, if not the family dynamics as I used to live in a small country town in WA. I also went through a terrible time, not related to abuse, that ended my marriage. I did have some help from the local GP who knew of some resources, and i saw a psychologist in Perth every fortnight. Another resource that people often forget is their local MP. I went to a meeting with one, once and she said her staff had the phone numbers of almost everyone in the public service who could get things done for her constituents. I'm sure there will be programs your husband could follow just as you visited Holyoake, but if he isn't willing, then you will have to set your boundaries. Your children are old enough to make their own decisions so for instance if you felt the need to leave the table you could do it on your own, and they could follow if they want to. Possibly explain your boundary to them in advance. I'm thinking of you because I know the dynamics of small towns and in some ways it's harder than in the anonymous city.

Bluegalangal

But you are not crazy and you are not wrong. It might be subtle but it's a grind and it's worse in some ways, just because it's not as clear and it's so difficult to explain to people, even therapists. It's death by a thousand paper cuts.

But you're not crazy and you are not wrong.

OpenSky

Oh FeelingGreat it is wonderful to have a response from someone who gets the dynamic of a country town. I am teary all over again with the relief of that, and the support you have given by actual practical suggestion on how I could tackle a given situation. I am feeling a lot clearer and have had a good talk with my 11 year old who is a very honest child. Your response has lifted me even more and helped my outlook.
Thank you!

OpenSky

BlueGalangal it is good to keep that one clear! I find it so easy to normalise what really isn't a loving and healthy relationship where each party can be heard and listen. my counsellor likened my situation to a one oared boat, where I was the one desperately paddling to keep us going, but we are going around and around in circles as a boat with only one oar does. And I am sure my boat and those of so many here, are leaky too.... hence the urgency of paddling! Makes for a lot of expended energy!

I am not crazy and I am not wrong. This is a good mantra. Thank you!

fairlyuncertain

OpenSky, welcome!
I'm also a mom desperately worried about the impact my AHs behavior has on the kids. I'll pass on the wisdom I learned through AlAnon, the things that helped me the most:

Each person in my family has their own path, and their own Higher power looking out for them (so I can relax a little, ease up on trying to control!).

My only job is to be mom. Not mom-and-dad, not controller-in-chief, just mom. I can't make up for any of the A's deficiencies, at all. I can only be complete in myself.

Not every boundary needs to be spoken (I have one that I never told my A--'I don't need to extend the hand of friendship to people who insult me.' It is a great internal reminder). One for you might be 'a peaceful family meal is important to me,' or, 'I will get a good night's sleep for my own well-being.'

I also packed a bag for myself and the kids just in case we needed to leave. I made plans with my friends, just in case. This was the boundary: If I feel scared, or the kids are, we're leaving--and I'm ready. I never verbalized it, I just got ready.

We can't count on alcoholics to share any of our values. They have one value: protecting their addiction. So let us stop threatening their addictions, and begin to live our lives and our values.
Ironically, this gradual turn in my thinking, from attending al-anon, has freed me. And freed the A to seek help for himself, instead of at my direction! I wish you and your family the best.

OpenSky

Wow! Fairlyuncertain, those are such helpful and powerful tips. Thank you heaps for sharing the things that have helped you particularly in relation to your children. And also in relation to boundaries. I am feeling incredibly less stuck and teetering on the edge of the abyss than I was this time yesterday. Often I think we find what we need when we really need it if we are open to that. I have searched around a bit before, but not really turned up any forum or support that seemed appropriate,and bingo, here I am here,wondering how I had not found what I was needing until now. I think I have been hoping that really as things improve in other facets of our lives, that my husbands alcohols use will simply disappear, and you know, his sober times have increased in length, and his drinking times have decreased over the past couple years, but,maybe it is that taste if what it can be like, and that taste i have given myself of who I am and can be ( singing again, playing music again, walking everyday, doing counselling, drawing again, getting ready to paint again, getting back in touch with old friends, finally buying myself things like new bras and the pair of boots I have never ever had, but have always dreamed of having, ( yeah self denial because money has been short, whilst my husband consumes the cost of a pair of boots in less than two weeks in alcohol....and i keep on. paying the bills......)finishing a course, and contemplating a long term look at study). I think I have been hoping that things will simply get better. And many things have. But the taste isn't enough,I want love and joy in my life,and fun. I don't want all the anger and absence and unavailability, grumpiness, bullying, promises, lies, laziness and lack of connection. Abusers of alcohol can't connect on any meaningful level when they are actively drinking can they? It simply is not where they are at is it?

Now I have a taste of life, instead of the numbness that passed for coping that has been my way of making it all ok for so long, I am impatient and hurt and angry at the complete waste of life and energy. My life and energy,my children's lives and energy. I am so uninterested in his drinking full stop. Actually, I feel like I have lost the little interest I had left on whether or not he heals his own life. I am too tired to really want to know. And i can feel what I thought was love is,maybe just some kind of word for trying to take care of and it ok. Its not love for who he is, because his behaviour is a big part of who he is, and I have had enough of those behaviours.

Oops, I am dribbling on quite a lot. It is good to get a lot of this out and off my chest. I needed to do this more thanI realised.

fairlyuncertain

It sounds like you are well on your way into the future! I had a lot of hurt feelings, once I realized I couldn't solve my A's drinking problem and my family's issues. I had just wasted all this time, I was so stupid, I should have known....and then I remind myself that, as of today, I can live my own life, and he can live his. As of now, whether or not I 'waste time' is a choice.

I wish you all the best. Your eldest might benefit from Alateen meetings....either online, if she wants to protect her privacy in a small town, or F2F.

OpenSky

That is a really really food self reminder. Thank you and wishing you well.

Recovering2

I recommend "The Language of Letting Go" by Melody Beattie. It's a great daily reader. I start each morning by reading the lesson for that day. There is some profound wisdom and inspiration as we learn to take our joy back.