A narcissist...?? Really??
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A narcissist...?? Really??
So my therapist told me the other day that when dealing with my XA, I was dealing firsthand with a case of narcissism. And at first, I was like, "Really?? But he doesn't seem vain or conceited or full of himself...he's more of the type to always go around saying what a f*ck-up he is, always seems to put himself down." To which my therapist replied, "Yes, he puts himself down, so everyone else can BUILD HIM UP. And that's what he wants. It's a manipulative way of getting his ego stroked." And it took me a while to wrap my head around this, but I've since looked it up, and was surprised to see that he DID fit into certain aspects of the broader definition of narcissism, such as:
- An obvious self-focus in interpersonal exchanges.
- Problems in sustaining satisfying relationships.
- A lack of psychological awareness.
- Difficulty with empathy.
- Hypersensitivity to any insults or imagined insults.
- Using other people without considering the cost of doing so.
- Bragging (subtly but persistently) and exaggerating their achievements.
- Inability to view the world from the perspective of other people.
- Denial of remorse and gratitude.
This was pretty eye-opening for me. Just found it interesting and thought I'd post it in case anyone else could identify with it in their relationships with their addicts.
- An obvious self-focus in interpersonal exchanges.
- Problems in sustaining satisfying relationships.
- A lack of psychological awareness.
- Difficulty with empathy.
- Hypersensitivity to any insults or imagined insults.
- Using other people without considering the cost of doing so.
- Bragging (subtly but persistently) and exaggerating their achievements.
- Inability to view the world from the perspective of other people.
- Denial of remorse and gratitude.
This was pretty eye-opening for me. Just found it interesting and thought I'd post it in case anyone else could identify with it in their relationships with their addicts.
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I think to a degree addiction IS a narcissistic act. by it's very nature addiction/drug use IS very selfish, self absorbed. there's a great IP (informational pamphlet) by NA called the Triangle of Self Obsession. i'll see if I can find it and post a link or the text. (I now have Windows 8 and can't seem to figure out how to jump between internet windows correctly!).
ha, success!
The Triangle of Self-ObsessionThis is NA Fellowship-approved literature.
Copyright © 1983 by Narcotics Anonymous World Services, Inc.
All rights reserved.
When we are born we are conscious only of ourselves, we are the universe. We perceive little other than our basic needs, and if these needs are met we are content. As our consciousness expands we become aware of a world outside ourselves. We discover that there are people, places, and things around us, and that they fulfill our needs. At this point we also begin to
recognize differences and develop preferences. We learn to want and choose.
We are the center of a growing universe and expect to be provided with the things we need and want. Our source of contentment shifts from basic needs miraculously met to the fulfillment of our desires.
Most children, through experiences over a period of time, come to realize
that the outside world cannot provide all their wants and needs. They begin to supplement what is given to them with their own efforts. As their dependency on people, places, and things decreases they begin to look to themselves more and more. They become more self-sufficient and learn that
happiness and contentment come from within. Most continue to mature; they
recognize and accept their strengths, weaknesses, and limitations. At some point, they usually seek the help of a Power greater than themselves to provide the things they cannot provide for themselves. For most people, growing up is a natural process.
As addicts, however, we seem to falter along the way. We never seem to
outgrow the selfcenteredness of the child. We never seem to find the self-sufficiency that others do. We continue to depend on the world around us and refuse to accept that we will not be given everything. We become self-obsessed; our wants and needs become demands. We reach a point
where contentment and fulfillment are impossible. People, places, and things
cannot possibly fill the emptiness inside of us, and we react to them with resentment, anger, and fear.
Resentment, anger, and fear make up the triangle of self-obsession. All of
our defects of character are forms of these three reactions. Self-obsession is at the heart of our insanity.
Resentment is the way most of us react to our past. It is the reliving of
past experiences, again and again in our minds.
Anger is the way most of us deal with the present.It is our reaction to and denial of reality.
Fear is what we feel when we think about the future.It is our response to the unknown; a fantasy in reverse.
All three of these things are expressions of our self-obsession.
They are the way that we react when people, places, and things (past,
present, and future) do not live up to our demands.
In Narcotics Anonymous we are given a new way of life and a new set of
tools. These are the Twelve Steps, and we work them to the best of our ability. If we stay clean, and can learn to practice these principles in all our affairs, a miracle happens. We find freedom from drugs, from our addiction, and from our self-obsession.
Resentment is replaced with acceptance; anger is replaced with love; and fear is replaced with faith.
We have a disease that, in the end, forces us to seek help. We are fortunate
that we are given only one choice; one last chance. We must break the triangle of self-obsession; we must grow up, or die.
The way we react to people, places, and things:
Negative or Positive
Past: Resentment or Acceptance
Present: Anger or Love
Future: Fear or Faith
ha, success!
The Triangle of Self-ObsessionThis is NA Fellowship-approved literature.
Copyright © 1983 by Narcotics Anonymous World Services, Inc.
All rights reserved.
When we are born we are conscious only of ourselves, we are the universe. We perceive little other than our basic needs, and if these needs are met we are content. As our consciousness expands we become aware of a world outside ourselves. We discover that there are people, places, and things around us, and that they fulfill our needs. At this point we also begin to
recognize differences and develop preferences. We learn to want and choose.
We are the center of a growing universe and expect to be provided with the things we need and want. Our source of contentment shifts from basic needs miraculously met to the fulfillment of our desires.
Most children, through experiences over a period of time, come to realize
that the outside world cannot provide all their wants and needs. They begin to supplement what is given to them with their own efforts. As their dependency on people, places, and things decreases they begin to look to themselves more and more. They become more self-sufficient and learn that
happiness and contentment come from within. Most continue to mature; they
recognize and accept their strengths, weaknesses, and limitations. At some point, they usually seek the help of a Power greater than themselves to provide the things they cannot provide for themselves. For most people, growing up is a natural process.
As addicts, however, we seem to falter along the way. We never seem to
outgrow the selfcenteredness of the child. We never seem to find the self-sufficiency that others do. We continue to depend on the world around us and refuse to accept that we will not be given everything. We become self-obsessed; our wants and needs become demands. We reach a point
where contentment and fulfillment are impossible. People, places, and things
cannot possibly fill the emptiness inside of us, and we react to them with resentment, anger, and fear.
Resentment, anger, and fear make up the triangle of self-obsession. All of
our defects of character are forms of these three reactions. Self-obsession is at the heart of our insanity.
Resentment is the way most of us react to our past. It is the reliving of
past experiences, again and again in our minds.
Anger is the way most of us deal with the present.It is our reaction to and denial of reality.
Fear is what we feel when we think about the future.It is our response to the unknown; a fantasy in reverse.
All three of these things are expressions of our self-obsession.
They are the way that we react when people, places, and things (past,
present, and future) do not live up to our demands.
In Narcotics Anonymous we are given a new way of life and a new set of
tools. These are the Twelve Steps, and we work them to the best of our ability. If we stay clean, and can learn to practice these principles in all our affairs, a miracle happens. We find freedom from drugs, from our addiction, and from our self-obsession.
Resentment is replaced with acceptance; anger is replaced with love; and fear is replaced with faith.
We have a disease that, in the end, forces us to seek help. We are fortunate
that we are given only one choice; one last chance. We must break the triangle of self-obsession; we must grow up, or die.
The way we react to people, places, and things:
Negative or Positive
Past: Resentment or Acceptance
Present: Anger or Love
Future: Fear or Faith
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Good stuff, Anvil. I agree with you that drug use is a selfish act, as that becomes the most important thing, above all else, in an addict's life. I just never made the connection to it being 'narcissistic,' per se, but then again, I had a very general, limited grasp on the definition of narcissism. I always just thought it was a vain, conceited person, someone who is in love with themselves. But now that I've read the whole definition, it definitely makes more sense to me and has given me food for thought.
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Originally Posted by EverHopeful721 
Good stuff, Anvil. I agree with you that drug use is a selfish act, as that becomes the most important thing, above all else, in an addict's life. I just never made the connection to it being 'narcissistic,' per se, but then again, I had a very general, limited grasp on the definition of narcissism. I always just thought it was a vain, conceited person, someone who is in love with themselves. But now that I've read the whole definition, it definitely makes more sense to me and has given me food for thought.
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Originally Posted by AnvilheadII
As addicts, however, we seem to falter along the way. We never seem to outgrow the self centeredness of the child. We never seem to find the self-sufficiency that others do. We continue to depend on the world around us and refuse to accept that we will not be given everything.
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Originally Posted by cynical one
And this ^^^^. Do you see how this fits in so wonderfully from our side? All this doing for, being involved, and being a part of sends them the message that they are incapable. And, it gives us purpose and we boast about “standing by” them when in reality it is more of “I will keep you needy and dependent on me” which feeds our ego, our sickness, our control issues, and our need to be needed.
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"Resentment, anger, and fear make up the triangle of self-obsession. All of
our defects of character are forms of these three reactions. Self-obsession is at the heart of our insanity.
Resentment is the way most of us react to our past. It is the reliving of past experiences, again and again in our minds.
Anger is the way most of us deal with the present.It is our reaction to and denial of reality. Fear is what we feel when we think about the future. It is our response to the unknown; a fantasy in reverse.
All three of these things are expressions of our self-obsession.
They are the way that we react when people, places, and things (past,present, and future) do not live up to our demands.
^^^^^see also how if you read this without knowing it is "about the addict" it is also about the codependent.
In hindsight, and with some clarity that is pretty humbling, I can say that being in the position of pain and dismay meant reaching out for help A LOT...meaning I got A LOT of attention for my attachment to addiction...
Real accountability was tough. For me this was part of the message of al anon..."that you can be happy whether the addict is using or not..."
I realized that if I couldn't be happy if he was using, and I kept staying with him anyway (in the attention getting drama misery) and continued to need the attention of everyone around me "to survive"...that I was caught up in my own form of self obsession, and my life was ensnared (as was those poor people who were close to me) in the triangle of self obsessive dependency... as a codependent
our defects of character are forms of these three reactions. Self-obsession is at the heart of our insanity.
Resentment is the way most of us react to our past. It is the reliving of past experiences, again and again in our minds.
Anger is the way most of us deal with the present.It is our reaction to and denial of reality. Fear is what we feel when we think about the future. It is our response to the unknown; a fantasy in reverse.
All three of these things are expressions of our self-obsession.
They are the way that we react when people, places, and things (past,present, and future) do not live up to our demands.
^^^^^see also how if you read this without knowing it is "about the addict" it is also about the codependent.
In hindsight, and with some clarity that is pretty humbling, I can say that being in the position of pain and dismay meant reaching out for help A LOT...meaning I got A LOT of attention for my attachment to addiction...
Real accountability was tough. For me this was part of the message of al anon..."that you can be happy whether the addict is using or not..."
I realized that if I couldn't be happy if he was using, and I kept staying with him anyway (in the attention getting drama misery) and continued to need the attention of everyone around me "to survive"...that I was caught up in my own form of self obsession, and my life was ensnared (as was those poor people who were close to me) in the triangle of self obsessive dependency... as a codependent
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What a great topic. Anvil, thank you for posting that!
I see the habits of some members of my family in that description, and of course myself before I started detaching. (Fear)
My RAB has been explaining resentment to me since he entered recovery. It's so amazing to see someone escape the fear, resentment and anger and begin being able to recognize it.
I see the habits of some members of my family in that description, and of course myself before I started detaching. (Fear)
My RAB has been explaining resentment to me since he entered recovery. It's so amazing to see someone escape the fear, resentment and anger and begin being able to recognize it.
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In line with what CO and lesliej said above, my therapist gave me a similar little nugget of wisdom. I had been talking about how I keep thinking I was the problem, and maybe if I had done/said things differently, C would still be with me. And he said to me with a knowing smile on his face, "You're not going to like what I'm going to say next." And I thought, "Uh-oh...!!" And then he said, "Wow, you have a pretty lofty opinion of yourself, don't you? You must think you're a pretty important person to have that kind of control over another person's choices, decisions and life." And guess what?? I DIDN'T like it.....because he was RIGHT. He got the desired effect he was looking for, hitting a nerve that struck a new realization in me. And I said to him (after I found my voice again from being rendered mute by his insightful words, lol), "You're right....I don't like what you said. But thank you for saying it and for giving me something to think about."
Wow.....who would've thought that as codies, we also suffer from a form of narcissism/self-obsession....?? Eye-opening, indeed!!!
Wow.....who would've thought that as codies, we also suffer from a form of narcissism/self-obsession....?? Eye-opening, indeed!!!
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Indeed, Kindeyes!! And I know it's something that I've seen expressed in different forms/words many times over here on SR, but what can I say?? I guess sometimes I'm a little 'slow on the uptake,' and it took the right person, saying it at the right time (and to my face, no less, lol!) for it to FINALLY sink in!! Point is, I think (hope!!) it finally did. 
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in gaining perspective...usually with the help of many around us, I find it to be more and more true that we are such mirror images of the addiction we are attached to...
and our own issues/symptoms/pathologies/confusion keep blinders on,
we often choose to remain focused on the addict
in the increasing clarity of recovery one can begin to see right through so many posts...that the codependent is suffering from such very similar deflections, denials, demands, excuses...etc., as the addict. it is SO hard to see when one is in denial.
taking full responsibility for well being and happiness in ones life is such a very difficult thing to do when one's life is connected to addiction. the deeper the connection the more difficult it is...
but the HOPE is there! it IS an al anon promise that one can be happy whether or not the alcoholic(addict) is using, and love does NOT equate with attachment in an unhealthy way
and our own issues/symptoms/pathologies/confusion keep blinders on,
we often choose to remain focused on the addict
in the increasing clarity of recovery one can begin to see right through so many posts...that the codependent is suffering from such very similar deflections, denials, demands, excuses...etc., as the addict. it is SO hard to see when one is in denial.
taking full responsibility for well being and happiness in ones life is such a very difficult thing to do when one's life is connected to addiction. the deeper the connection the more difficult it is...
but the HOPE is there! it IS an al anon promise that one can be happy whether or not the alcoholic(addict) is using, and love does NOT equate with attachment in an unhealthy way
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Humbling.
My husband is so self-centered. I'm shocked sometimes to the degree it is so.
As I detach with love and stop thinking it is my job to retrain him or teach him what he did not learn as he was growing up, I do still wonder if he will ever learn those things...
And in the next breath I know that is not my business.
He is emotionally and socially immature. Reality.
I am working on not expecting him to be different. To be empathetic. To say thank you. To show some humility. To offer to help someone else. It is not his way right now.
Accepting him as he is.
I am powerless over all nouns and pronouns in my life -- people places things. Especially my husband.
And yes, I'm on a super ego trip when I think I am powerful enough to get him to change.
If God knew it was best for Him to change, He could make that happen. But apparently it isn't the best timing, since it hasn't happened yet -- so who am I to think I know when it is best?
I need to relax and let go and let God.
I'll leave it to my husband and his Higher Power to work that out.
Meanwhile, I'll keep taking care of me.
Sent from my iPhone using SoberRecovery
My husband is so self-centered. I'm shocked sometimes to the degree it is so.
As I detach with love and stop thinking it is my job to retrain him or teach him what he did not learn as he was growing up, I do still wonder if he will ever learn those things...
And in the next breath I know that is not my business.
He is emotionally and socially immature. Reality.
I am working on not expecting him to be different. To be empathetic. To say thank you. To show some humility. To offer to help someone else. It is not his way right now.
Accepting him as he is.
I am powerless over all nouns and pronouns in my life -- people places things. Especially my husband.
And yes, I'm on a super ego trip when I think I am powerful enough to get him to change.
If God knew it was best for Him to change, He could make that happen. But apparently it isn't the best timing, since it hasn't happened yet -- so who am I to think I know when it is best?
I need to relax and let go and let God.
I'll leave it to my husband and his Higher Power to work that out.
Meanwhile, I'll keep taking care of me.
Sent from my iPhone using SoberRecovery
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Having lived with a narcissist who became an abusive alcoholic for almost 20 years, I did a lot of research on it. There are several threads in the archives in the Friends and Family of Alcoholics section that are well worth looking up if you're interested.
There are also You-Tube videos about narcissism by a guy named Sam Vaknin that I think are stunning in their accuracy. The reason they are so dead-on is that Sam Vaknin is a narcissist and he tells it the way he sees it. If you google "Narcissism and Sam Vaknin" you can find them.
My narcissist AH spent 9 months refusing to comply with the divorce Court's requirement that he submit financial documentation.
He's now made 2 self servicing divorce settlement offers that exclude as marital property anything he wants for himself, regardless of the legality of that. I got an e-mail that his lawyer will be sending me another proposal that is, as AH puts it "my final offer. It gives you 53% of the assets based on my numbers."
That's narcissism.
ShootingStar1
There are also You-Tube videos about narcissism by a guy named Sam Vaknin that I think are stunning in their accuracy. The reason they are so dead-on is that Sam Vaknin is a narcissist and he tells it the way he sees it. If you google "Narcissism and Sam Vaknin" you can find them.
My narcissist AH spent 9 months refusing to comply with the divorce Court's requirement that he submit financial documentation.
He's now made 2 self servicing divorce settlement offers that exclude as marital property anything he wants for himself, regardless of the legality of that. I got an e-mail that his lawyer will be sending me another proposal that is, as AH puts it "my final offer. It gives you 53% of the assets based on my numbers."
That's narcissism.
ShootingStar1
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A lack of psychological awareness.
The funniest example I can give is the day my AXGF did what she did and admitted to being unfaithful on multiple occasions, she texted she had found grace and dignity, things she never had with me.
And I had to read that a few times for it to sink in until, even in my shattered emotional condition, I saw it was bunk. And I remember thinking, Really? This is what you call grace and dignity? I think of it now and I laugh about it.
I would add to the list a gross lack of respect for the boundaries established by others.
ZoSo
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