milimom5

I want to thank you all as these forums have been quite helpful. I have been reading many threads for a good 6 months before joining. I was wondering if there are couples out there who are going to marital counseling and are not being heard at their sessions?

My AH has been sober for 3.5 years and goes to AA once or twice a week. I recently have been dealing with my co-dependancy issues as anger and frustration has been quite a surprising issue to pop up after he got sober. We are going to a marital counselor once a week for an hour and at first, I thought the first two sessions were helping. AH keeps a lot of feelings stuffed and he basically uses these sessions to let it all out. I particularly looked for a counselor who had codependency/substance abuse on their credentials so that she would address our issues looking through that filter. What is frustrating after about 16 sessions, is that I always walk away with the feeling that because my AH goes to AA weekly that she feels he is good to go. He vents at the sessions about a particular discussion we have had and how it went awry (usually my fault of course) she lets me discuss my side and then we spend the next 20 minutes talking about me and how I caused the fight. I find it hard to believe after 16 sessions that the only thing he has been asked to do is not get on me about how I load the dishwasher..... That he should look at the way I do it as endearing. I guess I was expecting to get to the bottom of why he chose to use alcohol as a way of covering up the pain and why I chose to act as a co-dependent by choosing him as a partner and why I stayed etc. I have been extremely frustrated with her approach and have verbalized this to her and him and they both look at me like I am crazy. Many times I will be talking and her face is stoic and somewhat confused and every time he talks she is nodding. It is weird.

For instance, we recently started talking about a fight we recently had about searching for a mortgage. I had told AH the night before that I wanted to do this and that when we searched for rates/etc the next morning that I wanted to call each bank and talk to a human. The next morning as we sat down (he at the computer) he started filling out the online forms instead of calling. I said "no, I want to talk to a human" in a ultimatum type of voice and of course my AH went ballistic. After about two minutes I apologized and told him after 18 yrs of handling stuff on my own while he was drinking, that I reacted poorly. He has a history of not caring about money stuff and always wants to get it over as quickly as possible. He would be happy to fill out a form rather than talking to a human and to me it was wasting time when we need certain questions answered. He couldn't get over my butting in and we ended up not finishing the search. I told our counselor that I apologized at the time and also let her know that I knew why I was reacting that way. She thought it was great and then said, your co- dependancy issues should have been dealt with by now and you have many poor behaviors that aren't allowing this relationship to heal.

After I picked up my jaw from the floor. I told her that I was upset because I do think we are stuck and that until recently I haven't dealt with them and even though AH goes to AA he really hasn't dealt with his side of the street. I also told her if things go awry that I try to on my part, stop, and think about why I am reacting in a certain way. She then looked at my husband and said well, "do you have any resentments toward your wife that she was the one to take care of so many things while you were drinking?" To which he said no. Which I know isn't true because they come out as we fight now. She then said, I think then that this is all past history for (me) and that is what causes you to get in arguments. It is like she has no idea what living with an alcoholic is like. Just because he is sober doesn't mean he doesn't react, say things, verbally and non verbally that are inappropriate and hurt our marriage on a daily basis. It takes two to tango. Every time I bring this up she wants to disregard my thoughts. My husband loves her of course, because I am getting called on the carpet every session. I have told him numerous times that I don't think she is helping. To which he said, you always quit with the counselors in the past when it gets hard. I remarked that the past 3 counselors were seen by us over a period of 18 yrs when he was drinking and they didn't know about the drinking, so they couldn't have helped us anyhow.

I am seeing someone for co-dependancy issues on my own and said that because I don't think she is helping with our marital discord that he can continue seeing her as his counselor but that we need to find someone else who is strictly nothing but an alcohol/co-dependancy counselor. Has anyone found that you have had to see many counselors before you got somewhere? How do you go about finding someone? I am unsure of how to get my husband to see his part in this and how important it is that we both feel validated.

PippiLngstockng

Welcome milimom!

I saw a couple's therapist last summer with my AH. She was pretty good at staying even with the 2 of us. For that, she was good. But she didn't get that my AH wasn't sober. And she encouraged us to talk because 'there is an awful lot of build up here'. True. But talking to an active and sometimes threatening and abusive man doesn't work. Why she believed he was really sober when he'd just been binging is beyond me. Alas, the times I tried to talk to that man were rather h**ish.

Now I have seen 3 more therapists to figure out this big mess and my separation, etc. the first was a private children's therapist. She identified my AH as a narcissist and encouraged me to divorce him. Not very professional, but she helped me at the time put some thoughts together.

Then I found myself with a domestic violence advocate. I really like her. Her take is somewhat different. She has been good at helping me figure out the system in this country and referred me to other agencies as needed. I really like her.

Then she got me going to a therapist who specializes in helping families dealing with violence and trauma. She's more of a real therapist. She has a different view a out the children and how to work things with my STBXAH.

All this to tell you that you are the consumer!!! Each professional will meet or not meet certain needs. If one doesn't feel to your gut like a good match, find another that does! I don't like what you are describing about your current therapist at all. Maybe you two need a man to work with. I find my AH is attractive to lots of women, and counsellors get just as sucked into his lies and charms as anyone. It s**ks, actually.

Finally, I have also discussed my situation with now 4 different lawyers. Each is really different with different advice and perspectives. I stuck it out too long with lawyer one, and that really slowed down my efforts to get myself to a better place.

So, to reiterate: you are the client. You hire them! Go with your gut and find someone whose perspective helps get you where you need/want to go!

Best wishes to you!

ricmcc

Please keep in mind that my wife and I have never attended marriage counselling, so what I say is based on my strong belief in open communicate between spouses. I believe that if I were in your shoes, the first thing I would do is tell my wife that I am not satisfied with the counselor, and would like to try another. I have been in therapy for other issues, and have never hesitated to change counselors if I feel my needs are not being met--all the best of luck to you in getting to where you wish to be in your marriage, rick

Audrey1

Milimom, I understand your frustration. Things with my partner reached one of our relationship's many horrific climaxes about 18 months ago when he decided to go out (ie. disappear) drinking with his alcoholic brother one night to "get me back" for taking a (very) rare night out to meet friends for about two hours. Long story short, I got home well before him, fell asleep, and woke to find him inexplicably naked, screaming abuse and outrageous accusations at me as I lay cowering in bed. When he eventually sobered up, I insisted on couples counselling (I wasn't aware at that time he had a problem with alcohol... he has now quit). The woman we ended up with was completely useless. She heard his side of the story (which he didn't even articulate very well on account of his reluctance to be there) as well as mine, which, in reality, was about a million times more awful than I have managed to articulate here in this post or to her, and she took his side! She actually suggested that I hadn't respected his wishes by meeting those friends, that I hadn't communicated with HIM properly, and that I had somehow done him an injustice. Not a word was uttered on the abuse I copped. I was gobsmacked.

The thing is, not all counsellors are good at their job, and even if they are there's no guarantee you or your husband will click with them, so you need to shop around until you find one who seems to know the deal and who you are both happy with. Don't take it personally or become disheartened. Just keep searching until you find someone who is knowledgeable enough to look at your situation clearly, and can offer solutions rather than take sides or cast blame.

Good luck.

dollydo

They don't all graduate at the top of their class, and...few are educated in the field of addiction. Personally I would find myself a new counselor, for individual therapy. Also read Codependency No More, by Melody Beattie and/or others books on codependency.

Keep posting, we are here for you.

Florence

Hi and welcome. Stick around and keep asking questions.

There's a lot going on here.

I'm about to attend marriage counseling with my AH. We've been separated for about six months. I've gotten very close to filing for divorce several times over this period, and find that I just can't, for whatever reason I'm just not ready. At the same time, I'm not totally certain that I even want to attend marital counseling. I go to an individual counselor who more or less believes I need to move on. I'm pretty sure that if I were in a more emotionally healthy place, I would have left the marriage by now for good. In fact, I'm pretty sure that if I were in a healthy place, I wouldn't have stayed through all the craziness.

Anyway, counseling is really only as effective as the people involved want it to be. Also, there are some misconceptions about therapists that I think feed poor outcomes for therapy. The therapist isn't a judge -- there's no right or wrong, and the therapist won't "rule" for one party or the other. The therapist isn't an authority and holds no real relational power in the world or in the relationship. That said, if he's sitting there smugly watching you getting your ass handed to you, that's not a good look for him. But if you want the therapist to agree with how mean he was to you, short of abuse, that's also not going to happen.

This is where I'm at with the whole therapy thing. I don't think my AH understands how awful and suffocating it was to live with him while he was using. He's apologized, but hasn't backed up his apologies with real action. I have expectations that he will Step 9 me (ugh, I have a lot of work to do) and am disappointed when it doesn't happen. I want to feel safe in the relationship, and I don't want to have to make any huge life decisions, but that ship may have sailed already. Someone on SR recently made the observation that a lot of us feel stuck when the person who hurts us fails to heal us. We want *HIM* to do that healing, the guy that abused our trust! We want the guy with the rages and the abuse and the money problems and the emotional unavailability to wake up one day and say, "By god, for the love of a good woman," and he will finally see how worth it we really are, and then we will be healed, and then we will be saved.

I'm finally coming around to the fact that that may not happen, and that it's a a fairy tale, and that it's an unhealthy expectation on my part. And also that if I can't feel whole in this relationship after all the hurt, that I may just have to actually call it and file for divorce.

Here's the thing. We don't have to make any major life decisions today, but it's worthwhile to step back and take real stock of the situation. Is this working for you? If not, what's next? Keep asking him to love you like you deserve, with unpredictable results? That's not really fair to you, is it?

choublak

Who cares how the dishwasher gets loaded, as long as it gets done? If you two, as a couple, have that much of an issue with HOW the dishwasher should be loaded, why are you searching for a mortgage together?

You make the phone calls, get the questions answered, and then he can fill the forms out. Teamwork.

Although I still think you have no business looking at mortgages when how you load the dishwasher appears to be a federal case.

If I'm coming across as snarky, it's probably because the place I live right now has no dishwasher (though I'm moving in about a week).

dancingnow

I have attended marriage counseling with my RAH, stopped and am now attending again with a different counselor. Let me just say this second time I have the same exact feelings that Florence expressed as I am not ready to let go of my marriage. Although my RAH is not drinking for about a year now this may be my next step in coming to the realization that I have unhealthy expectations about our marriage and also have to let go of the need to receive "that apology that I think is going to heal me". Not making any major life decisions now, just exploring as RAH is willing and some good may come of it.

The experience I had with the counselor we previously went to was a little similar to your experience. Although in the beginning I was able to express a lot of my anger and get some validation, most likely because my RAH at the time was still actively drinking and not very present for much of the sessions.

This counselor was an addictions specialist and I did receive the message pretty clearly that I was not to expect much in changed behavior from RAH; keeping himself sober was his primary focus. It was important to the counselor for me to focus on who my RAH was as a person before the alcohol took over, meaning if he didn't communicate much to begin with, he certainly wasn't going to be doing that now or probably ever.

The counselor we saw was a man and he did a good job in pointing out where my RAH fell short in the empathy department as well as pointing out where we were 50/50 in the inconsiderate or inappropriate behavior toward each other. He had a lot of compassion for my RAH and his difficulty with staying sober, something I couldn't bring to the table at the time and still struggle with.

I learned a lot about myself in the two years RAH and I were separated and your research about the mortgage experience makes me think of that. I am the financial manager of our marriage and I would often want something done a certain way and expect RAH to do it for or with me. I have come to realize that when I get frustrated or afraid or lazy about something I expect RAH to fill in for me. There are some times in a partnership where you do work as a team as choublak pointed out but in order for that to happen you really need to know yourself and be honest about your shortcomings is what I have found true for me.

This ended up being quite long. I apologize, sometimes my posts end up being validation or messages for myself.

I hope you take care of yourself and participate in counseling that is beneficial to you. Maybe you need to figure out more specifically what you are wanting from your RAH, a counselor should be able to help you express what your wants and needs are and then determine whether or not you are getting them met in your relationship. Whether they can be met by your AH is separate from that.

BTW the reason I put a stop to the first counselor was because my RAH starting using the sessions to complain about me rather that addressing any real issues and even though the counselor tried to stop it from just being complaining sessions it still just was a waste of time imo.

(((HUGS)))

LifeRecovery

I have done a lot of individual counseling and some marriage counseling.

I am not saying this is what is happening but it took me a little bit to realize that marriage counseling is very different from individual counseling.

In IC I am there to work on me, in MC it is about me, my partner and our relationship. There is a slightly different focus. Both have been good for me, but it took me a bit to figure out how different they were (and needed to be).

Manmust

If one person isn't honest in counseling, it won't work. I have called out my partner for lying in session. Fun stuff.
I do have to ask why you didn't make the phone call to the mortgage company? His way was online, your way was a phone call. Reverse it around, what if he wanted you to do it online?
I understand this is just one issue, but has anyone ever said you are too controlling? My AGF is, she frequently makes statements involving "we" when it should be I. When I feel her trying to control me, it makes me ballistic.

lizatola

I can relate to a lot of what this thread addresses. The dishwasher comment was funny because my AH would always tell me how to do things and I would respond with, "Who cares how it gets done as long as it gets done? I don't see the need to make hospital corners on the sheets nor do I care if you want me to vacuum from east to west to make that pretty pattern on the carpet." He didn't see it that way. It was always a control issue to him.

My experience with marriage counseling and my AH has not been good. He's used many of the sessions to complain about work, about humanity, about how much he hates the world, and complaining about me. One day he complained that I don't take his shirts to the cleaners anymore while I was trying to communicate how his anger and passive aggressive behavior were affecting our son and the atmosphere of the house and he just blurted that one out. Honestly, because AH was still drinking and lying about it, I haven't found counseling to be of any good for me but AH did agree to go to individual counseling so we'll see where that takes him.

We have a good counselor, too, who has been able to see both sides and be compassionate to both of us. In our last session though, he told AH that he's frustrated with AH because of the problems with the continued drinking. He feels that AH doesn't want to really put any effort in and he finds that the circular arguments AH throws out there are a waste of all our time. So, he told us to just come back every month or so to 'check in' with him, and that he felt our weekly sessions were pointless.

As validating as this was for me, it was difficult to hear because I actually was hopeful that it could work. I really liked what Florence had to share here. Words are just words and need to be backed up with action. I am working on changing me at this point, no reason to wrap myself up in his issues because, quite frankly, he's shown me that he's not ready to change.

Only you can determine if the MC will work for you. When I went to individual counseling I had to try 4 counselors before I found someone firm yet compassionate, someone I could see myself working with. That goes for MC, too. Maybe just a change is what you guys need? Would your husband be open to that, or is he just too happy with the one you have now? Only you guys can answer that question.

dandylion

Dear milimom, you said that your husband goes to 2 AA meetings per week.

Do you know if he has actually worked or is working on the STEPS, and if he is working with a sponsor? There is a big difference between being "sober" and being in recovery.
The recovery part is in the steps. Otherwise the alcoholic is still functioning with the old ways of thinking and the ol d ways of behaving. This is referred to in AA circles as "dry drunk"

I wouldn't expect much from marital counseling with an alcoholic until they are well on the way down the road of RECOVERY. Even then, not every marriage makes it.

sincerely, dandylion

milimom5

@Dandylion- Yes, I know he is working the steps but doesn't talk to sponsor as much as he probably should, even after 3.5 years of AA. Yes, the number of marriages that end even after sobriety is staggering. Sometimes there is just too much damage.

Thank you for all of your responses. I have told him I will give it a few more sessions but that I think we need change to a male counselor for a change and someone who is experienced with alcohol/recovery. He can be quite convincing and sounds believable, which is why he got away with drinking for so long. He is quite animated as well so I can tell she gets caught up in that.

I enter every session keeping an open mind and I am very aware that the counselor shouldn't take sides and I am not obsessed about being right. But I haven't heard very many constructive criticisms relayed to him after 16 sessions. I am ready to delve deep into what/ how we are.... but I just want it to be fair and honest. The counselor actually looked surprised and disappointed when I told her that I was in the shower the other day thinking of all the ways I had enabled him while he was drinking. It just sort of came over me. I think it came from reading one of the stickies on SR. (The things we don't ever look at the same now sticky) which made me laugh and cry at the same time. She looked disappointed and confused and said "lets not dwell on that.

I gained some advice from posting this and I will begin to call him out now as I am tired of the BS from him and her. My AH did agree that she hasn't really given him much to work on.....

milimom5

@Florence- Your words rang true for me. I am getting caught up in wanting him to eventually wake up and say "Good God, Woman. What have I done? I'm sorry." I need to understand that conversation will never happen and I need to come to terms with that or get out. I need to heal myself. He can't do that for me. He is incapable. It is hard, especially when I am having a problem or difficulty. Recently a thyroid issue popped up and I am super healthy. I keep these things to myself (symptoms, pain etc at least with AH). I haven't received much sympathy for ailments over the last 22 years so I have learned to talk to friends or family. We have three kids and a busy life, so I make a huge effort to not end up on the bed unless I am dying. When I mentioned to AH that I think I should go to see a specialist in Arizona who has been having success with his patients, he abruptly told me he would like to go. At first I thought it was sweet that he was involving himself in my medical concerns and trying to be supportive. But later in the conversation he blurts out "I want to be in that office to hear what he has to say. I don't want to ADMIRE this problem." "I want you to fix it." It came as a real shock since I have been quiet about the whole thing and haven't involved him. It really knocked me on my butt for a day. But your words, FLORENCE, came back to me, and I finally get that I really can't rely on him for emotional support. It is probably the hardest thing to come to terms with about the marriage. Because for all my faults, it is the one thing I always gave him.

lizatola

Millimom, it sounds like you are coming to a place of awareness and that is very powerful. It took me a while to realize that my AH wasn't really sympathetic to my cause or illness or whatever unless it would make him look bad. He is extremely narcissistic so if I got injured in front of others, he'd be all over me, but in private he'd crack a joke or ignore my pain. Yes, it's hard to live like this but we have choices. You can take your time, think about your options, think about your children, journal, and find support with friends and family. Don't be afraid to take care of yourself!

I told the story here once about how I got stung by a sting ray while on vacation and the lifeguards were very pointed in telling me and AH that I needed medical attention, a tetanus shot, and antibiotics because I basically had a puncture wound and marine bacteria now in my bloodstream. The minute we got back to the hotel room, AH put up a HUGE fight about taking me for help. He said, "You'll be fine. It's just a minor wound and once the pain caused by the toxin dies off you'll rest and feel better." UMMM, NOOOO, jack*ss, I need to get medical help NOW! I remember begging him to take me to the hospital or at least urgent care. He finally agreed but I felt like I had to fight for my life. Turns out I wound up with a double infection of staph and vibrio and needed 2 rounds of serious antibiotics. The foot took a year to heal because of nerve damage and tendon damage from where the barb injured my foot. He likes to laugh about it now and makes jokes, I don't. The pain was worse than childbirth and I was laying outside public bathrooms on a concrete walkway crying while people walked over me, waiting for the hotel shuttle to come get us because the beach guys couldn't drive me any further. As the toxin started creeping up my leg my son started crying and wondering if I was going to die. What fascinated me was how people just walked over me and didn't even seem to notice. The whole experience was totally surreal to me.

Anyway, I tell that story just so you know that you are not alone. I'm sorry that you are suffering. I do my best to eat right, exercise, sleep when I need it, take care of my teeth, etc because I know that taking care of myself is HUGE and that it sets the right example for our son. Keep coming back, sending you lots of cyber hugs today!