NewbieJ

How do we deal with the self-loathing when it is directed at us? Is what's below a classic example of it, or am I off base?

Last night AH said several hateful, damaging things to me, after we got into it when I noticed he wasn't wearing his wedding ring (for the past week he has been sleeping in the other bedroom with the door locked at night, cooking his own meals, having nothing to do with me). When I pressed him as to why he thought these things, he would either say "I don't want to get into it right now" or "I just know!":


"I don't even want to be in the same bed as you!"
"I feel like you just absolutely despise me!"
"I know you are just repulsed by me - you couldn't even think of having sex with me!"
"You hate me! You just hate me!"
"I don't believe it! (when I tell him nice things, i.e. "you're so sexy") Whenever you say that it's just ********, I just see ******** coming out of your mouth and ears!"

Of course, I get sucked into trying to tell him he's wrong, that I don't think these things, and I can't imagine why he thinks I do. I told him that I don't like his behavior but I do love him.

By the end I was exhausted. They say "Don't argue with a drunk alcoholic", had no idea if he was drunk or not (they probably don't need to have the "drunk" part in there? How about "non-recovering"...), and they also say not to lose our temper, and say things like "You might be right" to quell arguments.

I should have just let him leave. When I try to talk to him about his behavior or why he says/thinks certain things he won't talk about it, and will actually try to leave the apartment. This instance was complicated as he was talking divorce, and he did accept a new job some hours from here, so we may be moving (he is for sure, me? I don't know).

After his fit, he was suddenly making small talk, and though awkward with me, "things were fine". "What's wrong?" he asked me later (as usual). "You look like something's wrong." "Why are you asking that?" "Whatever. Nevermind."

dollydo

You have decided to stay with him, this is all part of the rollercoaster ride, his behavior is common and your reaction to him is common. He leaves or wants to leave and you take him back, the cycle of the ride continues, he has been abusive, both verbally and physically and you accept it, the cycle of the ride continues. All I can say is...you can hop off of the ride anytime you choose, until then nothing will change.

If love could cure addiction and abuse, none of us would be here, best of luck to you.

italiungrl

I go through the same thing any compliment is turned around on me that I'm lying, go figure that.
So I totally relate to your whole post.

DreamsofSerenity

Yep, that is self loathing dumped onto you. I went through so much of that cr*p also. My xabf would get absolutely furious with me for "not loving him enough." He'd insult me: tell me I am a coward, and that I'd never be happy. Turns out he is gone now and most likely not even looking back, while I am still missing him-- my point being that they don't make any sense whatsoever. Can you put in some ear plugs and pretend to be listening when you aren't?

LexieCat

You can't possibly "win" an argument like that. It is designed to tie you up in knots. There is no logic involved, so your use of logic is a waste of time and energy.

How long do you you want to subject yourself to that?

I would think long and hard about moving hours away to continue that lifestyle.

Momzo

More validation as to why I left my exabf...thanks! I'm sorry you're going through this, I know how it feels...the ear plugs are a great idea!

NewbieJ

My question was specific to the disease, and I was hoping to hear some insights as to how it is a part of it. There are others on here who are able to ask questions and get support? I regret mentioning anything about the past physical abuse, as now most of the answers I get are "you stayed, so this is what happens" - even when I'm asking about the disease. I.e. there are folks on here who are told "oh yes, that's classic", but in my situation it has nothing to do with the disease?

We're supposed to try to learn the facts about alcoholism, do I not get to do that because I'm in a relationship with someone who's been abusive?

NewbieJ

This is a big part of why I am on these forums. Yes, I have thought long and hard about moving away which is starting to cripple me. I cannot imagine leaving my husband after already moving so far away from our home state. It seems I would leave and would have nothing after trying to hard to make things work, also I cannot believe what is happening. That is what I am processing right now.

Redheadsusie

So sorry- hang in there! You won't win arguing with an A!

LexieCat

It's part of the disease because alcoholics DO hate themselves, but rather than look at alcohol as the reason for that, they have to make it about you. That's pretty much it. To face the fact that it's the alcohol that is making them unhappy would require them to do something about it, and the disease wants to avoid that at all costs.

Your understanding where it comes from will not change his behavior. Nobody here is refusing to support you, it's just that there isn't anything we can say that will make him different than he is. So it still comes down to whether you are willing to continue to endure that behavior.

If you feel there are truly compelling reasons to stay with him, you just need to be aware that this is pretty much what will continue to happen. There are strategies that can lessen the hurtful impact on you, but the behavior will continue.

NewbieJ

When living with an AH who doesn't seem to have the typical results of drinking (arrests, DUIs, can't hold a job, unsuccessful) it is hard to see what is the disease and what isn't. When I read up on it, I find that it describes the compulsion but not what I can see, what I have experienced. This is why I ask. It took me quite a while to finally see that he had a problem with alcohol in the first place. I just thought he was crazy.

Also, the more I learn that it's true to the disease I feel less codie that it's me, that I maybe said the wrong thing or did the wrong thing or somehow made it worse. I know I can't fix it, but I just don't want to make it worse (i.e. doing the don'ts, or other things I don't know about).

NewbieJ

I think we have to try to figure it out a *little* when seeing that someone has a problem - otherwise how would we know someone was an alcoholic to begin with, especially when they haven't lost anything due to drinking (i.e. it doesn't seem to be a problem).

Al Anon has really helped me focus on me, which is one of the reasons I feel the need to talk to someone about what else is going on, as we don't discuss this in meetings (I do have a sponsor, I am on step 4). I am in the middle of getting a small business underway and am excited but go back and forth between feeling hopeful and feeling that I will fail (I won't specify but it's in the creative field).

Fortunately I have many program friends that I get to see often, and I am grateful that I get to attend meetings everyday if I choose to.

I think I know what my options would be divorce-wise - our state is a community property state but there is no spousal support.

LifeRecovery

I had a lot of these instances when my loved one was both drunk and sober.

As I have gotten some distance I have realized that these statements that you posted that he made....you can't win against them. They are full sweeping statements that you can never prove right or wrong. My loved one used to say (when we were talking and I was not even upset at him) "Well I am just a bad husband." I realize now that is how he felt about himself....and that is an internal fix. As much as I want to I can never fix it.

My part in it though was to hear a statement like this and rush in to make it better (which I could not do). Then blame myself for bringing anything up, or if I had brought it up that I had someone done it "wrong." I will never forget one time the topic was how I did not want to live in the town we lived in....it had absolutely nothing to do directly with him but he said the I am a bad husband to it. My job was to do the internal fix on how I kept doing the same things too.

I had to stop engaging in these types of discussions or if I did engage, expecting that anything would come out of them for either of us (especially him). That included expecting that he would remember it later if alcohol had been involved.

I am sorry you feel like you have put so much into this and might lose out. Boy howdy can I relate to that feeling. I suspect most of us can.

LexieCat

OK, if you really want to understand alcoholism, here is the best resource I know of: Big Book Online. Read the first 164 pages, paying particular attention to "The Doctor's Opinion" and "More About Alcoholism." The chapter "To Wives" has to be read with the understanding that it was written in 1939 and is very dated in terms of gender roles in relationships, and societal expectations of women. It still is a very good explanation for how the disease works in the heads of the alcoholics.

For learning about how best to help yourself, I suggest you dive into the Al-Anon literature, and continue attending meetings. The "don'ts" are to help YOU, not to control the alcoholic. You have to learn to recognize your part in these dances and how to extricate yourself from them. Nobody here can give you simple instructions. You need to learn to internalize the mindset of recovery and learn to apply the principles to your own situation.

**edited because I see you are going to Al-Anon--great**

NewbieJ

What confuses me is that my part in the dance contributes, yet I do not have control. The don'ts are not to control the alcoholic - I know this, yet I have heard in different ways that if I continue to do (x) he will do (x). So that is just what has me perplexed right now, and feeling like I am the one who is losing it.

What I really want to say when he's so horrible to me? "Grow up! You're an a$$hole! You're a horrible husband!" But we shouldn't say these things obviously.

Thank you for the big book online link!

LexieCat

The "don'ts" are not just to prevent him from doing (x)--although that can sometimes happen. At least you would not be actively engaging in his decision to do HIS (x)--and you reduce the incentive for him to do it. That isn't to say he WON'T still do it, but at least YOU have the confidence that it isn't you giving him the excuse.

Does that make any sense? It's like this: Other people's bad behavior does not excuse my own. I can't make someone treat me well, but I can keep my side of the street clean. What they do is then totally on them.

LifeRecovery

I had to figure out that in the dance of my exAH and mine relationship I had steps too that were contributing to the dance. Those were what I had control over and what I could change.

Mine usually took on the rescuing variety. I also stuffed a lot of my feelings and made it all about him. I took myself out of the equation on many occasions to try and keep the peace. This might temporarily help, but long-term nothing got resolved.

I had the idea that I could impact his emotional well being (probably because I let him impact mine).

This took me a long time. I had been in therapy years when I finally was forced to address his drinking problem for myself, and what it meant to me.

NewbieJ

Yes this makes sense. I have tried to keep my side of the street clean (I like that saying) but I also don't want to be a doormat. I suppose when he's "acting out" or having these episodes I can either walk away, say nothing (which is SO hard, when they're telling you that you've been so horrible and you want to defend yourself) or what have you.

I think what frustrates me is that you're right, there is no winning, because this isn't a normal rational person having a conversation with me, and I have to stop acting like AH is.

amy55

I think that you are dealing with 2 different issues. Alcoholism and abuse. They are not the same thing, even though the co-exist quit often. Not everyone who is an alcoholic is abusive, and not everyone who is abusive is an alcoholic. What you are dealing with is emotional abuse. All those things that were said to you, were said to me, plus a lot more. It depended on what he needed to say to "push my buttons" that day, and I fell for it a lot, and did the same thing that you are doing, trying to defend myself.

I stopped doing that, so he would find other things. He really just wanted to "fight", it seemed that the fighting made him feel better, because I was now in the same place as he was. He did actually tell me this, so it is not an assumption, and not me trying to figure out what was going on. He had said to me, why can't I just scream at you, you scream at me, then we drop it, and have sex.

So after he would say the meanest things he could to me, he would walk away for awhile, then come back to me with a cup of tea, and ask me if I wanted to do anything with him. Of course I would say "no", then the questioning would start. He wanted to know what, wrong with me and what my problem was. Now, I was a slow learner here, so when he would ask, I would tell him. That just started the whole thing all over again. He actually did tell a psychologist that if I was upset with him, that it just made him "mad". So if I told him what was wrong, I started the fight up again, if I didn't tell him, then I still started the fight up again.

You can't win at these fights, and they get worse and worse. Once you get used to dealing with one situation, they find another and another that will just send you over the top.

You can walk away from these, but they will follow you, and follow you. You can leave the house and come back later, but they just worked themselves up even more.

There is no way to talk to "crazy". I also needed a lot of therapy during my marriage, and after I left it.

Tuffgirl

Here's what's in your control - not getting sucked in. You clearly laid out the "hooks" he uses to get you to argue. So next time, don't react, don't engage. Don't take it personally either, it isn't about you.

With all due respect, and again, I mean this is all kindness, this one sentence is a red flag for yourself. It shows you are defensive. And we all here understand that, after doing the dance with our A's for so long. In order to stay in this marriage, you are going to need to learn to drop the defensiveness.

Absolutely! I read everything I could get my hands on about alcoholism, and saw a therapist AND went to Al-Anon,. And posted here! Education is empowerment. Best know what your future holds so you can make the very best judgment calls for yourself. However, for the future, maybe state in your thread that you are looking for specific information? Abuse is a trigger for many people, here and in the real world. Your husband is being emotionally abusive. People will naturally focus on that and not hear anything else you are saying.

See the defensive posture in your words above? Here's the advice I got from all of my resources I mentioned above. It went something like this: "Tuffgirl, Drop the rope in your tug-of-war power struggle with your husband. Decide to be peaceful rather than right. You already know your truth. You don't need to try to force or coerce or out-argue him into agreeing with your point of view. And he has every right to think, feel, and believe whatever he wants to. You don't have the power to change that, no matter how hard you fight. Accept what is and decide not to react to it."

Best damn advice I've had in a long time! Letting go of the need to be right, to be validated restored sanity into my life. Try it next time you are faced with a hook coming at you. Stop, think, and decide to let the hook sail right by you. And go about your day as if it never happened.

Good luck,
~T