Wary

(I'm not sure if this is the appropriate forum to be asking this, as it seems so irrelevant compared to what tons of people are going through, but I just need feedback I can trust so badly and I'm not sure where to get it!)

I'd say the guy I'm really interested in has some sort of drinking problem, but I don't know if it's alcoholism. Now 24, he was a severe binge-drinker in college, blacked out almost every time, would find himself waking up in random public places. Finally got a DUI. I believe he also used prescription painkillers, but I'm not sure. He did cocaine maybe once a month for about a year before quitting that and booze.

Fast-forward: He seems unhappy with relocating for his current job, which is stressful in its own right, and seems to be drinking at home alone (e.g. 8 beers, although he is very large -- 6'6'' tall -- and I don't know what the equivalent would be for an avg. sized man). I honestly have no idea if it's normal for people to drink alone or if that's indicative of some sort of psychological dependence.

He once told me he still has urges to do cocaine. But what bothers me the most is that he has quit drinking I believe TWICE before, the latest being back in April. If he has felt the NEED to quit in the first place, not to mention relapsing within months, and often not even staying completely sober in the interceding time ("I only slipped 5 times in 5 months")...I don't know what to think.

He described hangovers as giving him "the shakes" and sweating through his clothes back in his college binging days. I've NEVER had a hangover like that, even after a few episodes of my own college binge-drinking. Is what he is describing actually alcohol withdrawals?

I've just started cognitive behavioral therapy, and my therapist said that this concern of mine is one of my judgmental thoughts (I have to address having judgmental thoughts in general and toward myself, not just with him), and that I need to understand people are not perfect. I know people are not perfect, and me worrying about this could be a symptom of the anxiety disorder she just diagnosed me with, but it seems like fair reason to not date someone. I really like him though!

I brought my concern to his attention, saying it seemed like the drinking was a bit much, and he said "he has the drinking under control."

Lots of young men have these residual college habits that gradually subside as they enter adulthood, but for some it never does, and they become alcoholics. I could see him going either way. Do you think he's an alcoholic? It's not like he's hiding liquor in toilet tanks and the stuff I've read about on the internet so I have no idea. Should I not date this person?

Pelican

Welcome to the SR family!

You have found a wonderful resource of information and support. We understand.

I can't tell you if your friend is alcoholic or not. I won't try to tell you if you should or should not date him.

I can share with you something I learned in Alanon. It's a slogan I use as a tool to help me when I don't know what decision to make. The slogan is:

Patience, more will be revealed.

For me his past behaviors are red flags. Red flags are issues that may be a sign of bigger trouble ahead. And most of the people I know that struggle with alcoholism (present or past) have thought they "had it under control".

Be patient, more will be revealed.

Recovering2

Reading your post sent up so many red flags for me. I have learned that it's important to go with your gut feeling. Your heart and your head will try to talk you out of it. If you are seeing signs that make you uncomfortable at this point, then listen to that inner voice. Binge drinking, blacking out, drinking alone, DUI, prescription narcotics, cocaine...I personally don't think you're being judgmental at all. I think you are wise to question the behaviors. Whether he is an alcoholic or not, if the situation is making you uncomfortable there is merit to that.
No one can tell you if you should stay in a re'ship with this person. But I would say that you are more aware than you are giving yourself credit for.

Shadydeal

Welcome! I can't tell you one way or another but what I will say....if there is any question in my mind again w another potential BF then I hope I have learned/hurt enough to run as fast as I can! It hurts way too bad to ever take a chance for me! Glad you are considering the possible issues before jumping off! Please educate yourself and think long and hard before making a decision to become more involved.

lillamy

This is one of those situations where I'm really fighting the urge to GIVE ADVICE which we're told not to do...

I think I would like to know what experience your therapist has of addiction. Because that statement, while I'm sure well-intended and meant to help you, would have been like handing me another knife to stab myself with when I was in a marriage to an A. Because that's what my AXH said all the time -- he didn't have a problem, I was just a judgmental wench. So hearing a therapist say that really triggered me.

I think one thing I lost in my alcoholic marriage was the ability to listen to my gut and trust my instincts. You still have that ability intact, and you're raising questions that sound completely and utterly reasonable to me. Yes, addiction problems are definitely a good reason to reconsider dating someone, in my book.

Having an anxiety disorder doesn't mean your instincts are wrong about everything. My anxiety usually doesn't make me react to things that are not "dangerous" -- it just makes me overreact to things that are (dangerous/worrisome, etc).

And being judgmental doesn't have a thing to do with it in my book.
You can be very accepting and tolerant of people and their imperfections and quirks without wanting to date them, right? I personally don't care if people don't shower or brush their teeth every day -- that's their problem -- but I wouldn't want to date a guy who persisted in that behavior. Does that make me judgmental? Not. For. A. Second.

I'm really getting worked up at this therapist... Because making choices about what people you want in your life has nothing to do with being judgmental. I'd like to ask her "so -- if I met a convicted serial killer and had doubts about dating him -- would that make me judgmental or protective of myself?" Crud, I mean, that's what dating is -- finding out who the other person is and determining whether or not you want to share your life with them. Past behavior is usually a good predictor of future behavior...

PohsFriend

Pelican made a realllly sound prediction - more will be revealed.

It's hard to tell alcohol abuse from alcoholism. The really disturbing things you describe we're back in college: binge drinking, blackouts, the shakes ...what about now? He might drink 8 beers but is that daily? Once in a while only on weekends? Breakfast?

Back I pelican's prediction - more will be revealed. If your gut had you googling to find us then it probably feels something is off. Taking it slow and getting a better sense for his drinking seems like a good idea.

An alcoholic and a perfectly under control drinker will say they have it under control so not information from that.

Only an alcoholic or a total moron would drink the way he is in college but a fair
Number of boys aged 18-22 Are total morons.

Take it slow, watch, listen... Read here and see, we will confirm your suspicions or he won't but there's more to come.

BillyPilgrim

If something walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is your call on whether it is a duck or not.

Nobody is perfect yes, but gut feeling is common sense, it is a survival instinct we all have.

My gut feeling is change therapist

StarCat

If you are in this forum asking that question, you already know your answer. His drinking is bothering you, and you feel it will be a problem for you if you date this guy. At that point, labels mean nothing.



To put it into terms even your therapist will understand:

It doesn't matter whether or not he's an alcoholic, what matters is his drinking is a problem for you.

And so you're not judging *people* - you're just turning down the "opportunity" to invite more *problems* into your life.

LifeRecovery

This post is triggery for me, so know that some of this is my own stuff.

I had two therapists at the time I met and married my husband (individual and group). One who was well versed in addictions (having experienced her own and with other family members). One who was not.

I had some concern regarding drinking prior to our marriage that I honestly attempted to have with the one who was not versed in addiction. I heard similar things to what you did. Because I had my own stuff I ended up putting myself and my "flags" on the chopping block as my own, and coming from my own problems. It never occurred to me that regardless they were there and I had the right to ask "How does this impact me?"

Two weeks after we got married I had a big lesson in what that can mean with a binge drinking episode that I will never forget.

When I told both therapists the one without an addiction background just kind of poo pooed the situation and said "Well you married an alcoholic...What are you going to do?"

Just in this last year (six years after the fact) I have had to work that all through and see, it was not that she was a bad therapist for my original reason for going there....it was that she was not trained in addiction.

My therapist that was trained mentioned Al-Anon right away, and kept calling me on what was mine and what was not. I still see her to this day....and I think her work with me is part of hte reason I have stayed sane in the last two years.

For me a therapists training has made a big difference.

lovesunandsnow

There have some really great posts with wonderful information to go from. All I can say if I had listened to my Gut about my ex-abf I would have ran away. It's hard to say what a person should do but your gut will guide you and our hearts and head will get in the way. That is just my experience. You'll figure out what is right for you. Good luck.

Wary

Sorry this was triggering for so many of you.

He doesn't drink in the morning, but yeah like 7 beers is in one sitting ("but over the course of 3 hours" he'll add when I question it). He does that after work. I honestly don't know if it's daily. He gets drunk on a weekly basis at the very least.

I do think more will be revealed in time, yes. I actually stopped contacting him awhile ago because I was so unsure, but he still occasionally contacts me. I hoped that if he was seeing other people, he'd be less lonely in his new location, and maybe that's all he'd need for the drinking to subside again. But I think he is actually trying to plan his dates around getting drunk, i.e. he wants them to drive to him so he can walk home from the bar or whatever.

Regarding the therapist, I believe she is only trained for cognitive behavioral therapy, i.e., she points out the patterns in my distorted thoughts so I can become self-aware, then I can address the problematic thinking that leads to problematic emotions and thus problematic behaviors. My guess is she would agree it's okay for a psychologically healthy person to nix someone with a drinking problem, but she's merely pointing out that the SOURCE of my thoughts are what's problematic here. So while the assessment of him may be fine, it's not arising from healthy thinking patterns in my case. She didn't make that very clear last week but that's probably why she said that. I think I sometimes forget and talk to her like she's a traditional psychotherapist, but really she's more like a coach who is dissecting my thinking from one very specific angle. I don't always have to agree with her on everything anyway for her to help me. She's also the only therapist I can afford. I eventually would like to get a traditional, long-term psychotherapist though when I can afford one after I complete this treatment plan, hopefully I can find a good match (and money to pay for it).

I agree about gut instincts and that's what's so hard for me. I do have a serious anxiety problem and it makes me question my instincts, but someone with anxiety said her instincts are sound, the reaction is merely augmented. That's probably right, it's like having the ultimate ******** detector, but sometimes I feel like I've crossed the line from anxiety into paranoia. I've worried and convinced myself of things that aren't true (being cheated on) before. And someone said (wisely) that it just matters if his drinking is a problem for ME. I know this logically, but I can't get past the feeling that I need outside validation because being overly picky means I'm losing out on a good thing. If there are people for whom it's not a problem, then his behavior is not in universal deal breaker territory, and why can't I be one of those laid back people who would be fine being with him? My uncertainty plagues me.

I also have that feeling of, "Who am I to demand a perfectly healthy person when I myself have problems? Who will have me except another person with problems?" Like I HAVE to settle in some way, why not for a guy I have feelings for?

Someone asked why I'm attracted to him. It's an interesting question, because I wonder if his substance use by definition makes him emotionally unavailable, whatever that means, and am I drawn to it for some reason? And would he still be emotionally unavailable if he quit drinking because he doesn't know how to process negative emotions and conflict? Maybe it's a default defense mechanism. I'm attracted for the usual reasons though: he's very intelligent, very funny, I'm physically attracted to him, he's remarkably self-aware (perhaps not on this issue), we have the same political/social point of view (progressive liberals, he's well-acquainted with social justice issues such as feminism, which is reflected in his own attitudes and behaviors; this is rarer than you think), he is the only man who has completely respected my boundaries even when they seem overly rigid (he doesn't pressure me on certain issues -- this is not a sex thing). He's a good man and I'm scared to lose him. That's why this is hard for me.

The post about the new husband binging right after getting married? Yeah that worries me. I remember reading about how being in love actually changes the brain to make neurons less sensitive to the rewarding effects of amphetamine, so it's like a stabilizing influence. And I think, so maybe he just needs to be in love and he'll be less prone to these behaviors, and I'll regret seeing that maturing shift in him happen when he falls in love with someone else. That may never happen, but if it did, I know I'll regret losing him.

Those of you saying you wish you had listened to your instincts and ran, that helps deal with my fear I'll regret losing him.

bamboo10

I didn't read everything-but one thing you said stick out to me. You DO NOT have to settle for an unhealthy person just because you have anxieties. Do not let yourself think that way.

Justfor1

I would say that anyone who has experimented with or used cocaine in the past has a increased risk for addiction. IMO the act of trying a highly addictive & well known monster of a drug shows that he willing to do anything for a "buzz".

thislonelygirl

He said he had urges ...eekk! Thats a problem.
Hes had a dui....hmmm maybe maybe not but could be
He has black outs that have resulted in weirdness....another one.
Binge drinking.
Using references like shakes and sweats.
Honey he sounds like an addict. Im pointing this out but it sounds like
You know deep down he is but like all of us we didnt want to see the signs for what they were or we questioned our better judgement .
No kids. No marriage.....your asking if yall should date. In my opinion
I would walk away. The codie in you will want to fix him and not want to believe he is.
Dont listen. Thats my opinion and that thevroad of loving an addict and sharing a life is much more difficult than walking away before bonds are made. Good luck to you

ithinkiwantout

I agree with thislonelygirl-if i was questioning this when i met my rabf i would have run as fast as i could in the other direction-unfortunately i didn't find out until i had already fallen in love with him

kmangel

While dating this is the time to discover if you two are a good match. If drinking to excess is something that really bothers you, think long and hard about your current relationship. It will not get better. It most likely will get worse. It will irritate you to no end.

Ask your boyfriend if he can lessen his drinking-- that it bothers you how much he drinks. If he can (and does) great. See if he keeps it up. When I was first married up until our son was born my husband would drink until he passed out. Fortunately for us he was able to greatly reduce his drinking after we talked and I told him I thought it was time for him to not get drunk anymore. We had a child to consider. He agreed and has only been drunk a couple times since (now not at all). An alcoholic won't be able to or want to quit like my husband did. It will require much more effort--and it may never happen. That is why it is wise to choose a partner with the same life values you have--including in regards to alcohol and drugs.

LifeRecovery

I just wish I had not taken all of the "problems" in the relationship as my own because I have/had struggles. I agree about what I wrote about the therapist earlier, but realized later that is what I really wanted to say.

Just because we have concerns of our own, does not mean we have to discount ourselves in the face of someone else's stuff.

That is why I am sure I had to get into the relationship I did...to learn that part.

lillamy

Oh, don't apologize -- triggers are our own, nothing anyone else is responsible for.
And in a way, triggers are good (in the same way life lessons are) because they're an opportunity to look at your attitudes/reactions again.

Star Cat said exactly what I was thinking but much more succinctly:
Who cares if it's alcohol abuse, alcoholism, or... cat hair? Doesn't care what you call it; if it bothers you, it's an issue.

What people kept telling me about AXH was that I shouldn't think of him as separate from his drinking -- that it was a package deal, and that the best thing I could do was to think of my life as if the situation I have today will never change. That was, in my case, that he would work a high-profile job every day without any problems, and come home and pour the first drink before taking his coat off, and then drink until he passed out. That, to me, became unacceptable. It was not the life I wanted.

BoxinRotz

He's a good man and I'm scared to lose him.

Ain't nothing like sitting in the presence of your *good man* and knowing you lost him to his drink.

ZiggyB

8 beers a day? Sounds like bad news to me, personally I would head for the hills.