It's Not Time To Forgive
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It's Not Time To Forgive
There’s another thread here talking about forgiveness and moving on. NYCDoglvr wrote "You're not ready yet to cut ties with the alcoholic. Every excuse is simply denial."
I’m starting a new thread about this because my emotional reaction to this comment doesn’t have a lot to do with the original thread, but it jolted my thinking.
I think that is what is beneath what I am wrestling with right now.
When I think that I understand what STBXAH did to me, and forgive him, and wish him well, then I am thinking that the part of me that needs to take care of me goes underground. Then it sneaks back up incognito and bites me. Like bronchitis, almost walking pneumonia, 3rd serious antibiotic, prednisone - that's what I got at the specialist's today.
I felt woebegone, beaten up, losing, not able to talk for coughing. A while ago, English Garden posted that Jung would wonder what my illness metaphorically represented. Translate bronchitis = suffocating; translate my bone spurs/plantar fasciitis = being crippled.
So driving home from the hospital today (outpatient), my real feelings came to the surface, and I am FURIOUS with my AH for causing this profound disruption in my life. That anger was getting submerged and became depression, and for me, depression + stress = physical illness.
I yelled what I feel about him the whole way home. I wish he had been there to hear it. Like high pressure unrelenting water from a firehose. Maybe the water was acid rain. He deserves it. I hold him accountable for each and every attack on me.
I do NOT FORGIVE him. Why should I? And it's not the old saw about staying angry with someone eats you up inside, so it is better to forgive, live and let live. That is just too superficial for where I am right now.
For me, I've re-discovering a fleeting insight I've had now and then. There is a certain kind of magnanimity that I have felt sometimes in the past when I extended myself to "forgive" someone that had a tone of grandiosity to it.
And it always came back to bite me. I think I was giving away something I didn't have to give. I think I was doing that to make myself feel like a bigger, better person. When inside me were totally different feelings that were not half so pleasant. But they were fierce. And pent up. And determined to be expressed one way or another.
Right now, I DON'T wish my AH well. I have not gotten a tenth of the way through the anger I have at him for his alcoholic rages and his perverted porn and how he abused me with both and tore down what it took me 20 years to build and cut away at my core, my heart, my soul, like a carnivoric internal parasite. He even stole a close family member’s identity and posed as them on porn sites.
He was a destructo machine: he attacked me where it hurt most, where it caused most damage, where I couldn’t see it, and he escalated it the more I told him it hurt. The more I shared how vulnerable and damaged I was feeling as I pleaded with increasing intensity for him to stop, the more he ratcheted up the devastation. So either he is incapable of empathy and introspection or he intended to destroy me so he could aggrandize himself.
What’s to forgive about that? Maybe forgive isn’t the right word. I divorced my first husband over 25 years ago; my family of origin was so vociferously destructive and loud about it, that I chose a mate who couldn’t hear anything, yet accompanied me, buffered me, and protected me.
When I grew beyond some of that original pain, I wanted to be heard, and, you guessed it, he couldn’t hear me. So we parted, but after some years, we forgave each other for the problems we had caused each other; when he had no place to go, we used to invite him for holiday dinners and it was genuinely cordial. The passion was gone, replaced at some quiet point with indifference, and then with a limited but comfortable friendship. I think that is forgive and forget, or at least move on, for real.
This is different. This man set out to do what he had to do to survive by aggrandizing himself. In his behavioral code, for someone to succeed, someone else had to fail. He didn’t want the scales between him and me balanced, equal amounts of gold on each side. That was failure to him; that was unbearable competition; that was an intolerable lack of power.
So he had to have all the gold – all the power, all the insight, all the spotlight, all the genius, all the wisdom, all the control – he had to have it all on his side of the scale. And as time went on, he required more and more of that. And, he isolated me on the top of a mountain in the woods hours away from my friends, with strange cultish neighbors and no family, refusing to join any community such as church, and antagonizing all the groups of people we did meet so that they would have nothing to do with us.
And the little gold that was left was me. And he took it.
And I, shame on me, couldn’t see it happen until the abuse became so unbearable and shocking, the porn especially, that I fled. Yes, I became profoundly co-dependent. But I was never evil. I never tried to hurt him. I never tried to hurt anyone. My errors, my mistakes, are mine and they are many, and I have and I do acknowledge them and own them. But I never hurt someone with intent.
So, I make myself sick when I am not honest with myself about my real experience and my true feelings.
ShootingStar1
I’m starting a new thread about this because my emotional reaction to this comment doesn’t have a lot to do with the original thread, but it jolted my thinking.
I think that is what is beneath what I am wrestling with right now.
When I think that I understand what STBXAH did to me, and forgive him, and wish him well, then I am thinking that the part of me that needs to take care of me goes underground. Then it sneaks back up incognito and bites me. Like bronchitis, almost walking pneumonia, 3rd serious antibiotic, prednisone - that's what I got at the specialist's today.
I felt woebegone, beaten up, losing, not able to talk for coughing. A while ago, English Garden posted that Jung would wonder what my illness metaphorically represented. Translate bronchitis = suffocating; translate my bone spurs/plantar fasciitis = being crippled.
So driving home from the hospital today (outpatient), my real feelings came to the surface, and I am FURIOUS with my AH for causing this profound disruption in my life. That anger was getting submerged and became depression, and for me, depression + stress = physical illness.
I yelled what I feel about him the whole way home. I wish he had been there to hear it. Like high pressure unrelenting water from a firehose. Maybe the water was acid rain. He deserves it. I hold him accountable for each and every attack on me.
I do NOT FORGIVE him. Why should I? And it's not the old saw about staying angry with someone eats you up inside, so it is better to forgive, live and let live. That is just too superficial for where I am right now.
For me, I've re-discovering a fleeting insight I've had now and then. There is a certain kind of magnanimity that I have felt sometimes in the past when I extended myself to "forgive" someone that had a tone of grandiosity to it.
And it always came back to bite me. I think I was giving away something I didn't have to give. I think I was doing that to make myself feel like a bigger, better person. When inside me were totally different feelings that were not half so pleasant. But they were fierce. And pent up. And determined to be expressed one way or another.
Right now, I DON'T wish my AH well. I have not gotten a tenth of the way through the anger I have at him for his alcoholic rages and his perverted porn and how he abused me with both and tore down what it took me 20 years to build and cut away at my core, my heart, my soul, like a carnivoric internal parasite. He even stole a close family member’s identity and posed as them on porn sites.
He was a destructo machine: he attacked me where it hurt most, where it caused most damage, where I couldn’t see it, and he escalated it the more I told him it hurt. The more I shared how vulnerable and damaged I was feeling as I pleaded with increasing intensity for him to stop, the more he ratcheted up the devastation. So either he is incapable of empathy and introspection or he intended to destroy me so he could aggrandize himself.
What’s to forgive about that? Maybe forgive isn’t the right word. I divorced my first husband over 25 years ago; my family of origin was so vociferously destructive and loud about it, that I chose a mate who couldn’t hear anything, yet accompanied me, buffered me, and protected me.
When I grew beyond some of that original pain, I wanted to be heard, and, you guessed it, he couldn’t hear me. So we parted, but after some years, we forgave each other for the problems we had caused each other; when he had no place to go, we used to invite him for holiday dinners and it was genuinely cordial. The passion was gone, replaced at some quiet point with indifference, and then with a limited but comfortable friendship. I think that is forgive and forget, or at least move on, for real.
This is different. This man set out to do what he had to do to survive by aggrandizing himself. In his behavioral code, for someone to succeed, someone else had to fail. He didn’t want the scales between him and me balanced, equal amounts of gold on each side. That was failure to him; that was unbearable competition; that was an intolerable lack of power.
So he had to have all the gold – all the power, all the insight, all the spotlight, all the genius, all the wisdom, all the control – he had to have it all on his side of the scale. And as time went on, he required more and more of that. And, he isolated me on the top of a mountain in the woods hours away from my friends, with strange cultish neighbors and no family, refusing to join any community such as church, and antagonizing all the groups of people we did meet so that they would have nothing to do with us.
And the little gold that was left was me. And he took it.
And I, shame on me, couldn’t see it happen until the abuse became so unbearable and shocking, the porn especially, that I fled. Yes, I became profoundly co-dependent. But I was never evil. I never tried to hurt him. I never tried to hurt anyone. My errors, my mistakes, are mine and they are many, and I have and I do acknowledge them and own them. But I never hurt someone with intent.
So, I make myself sick when I am not honest with myself about my real experience and my true feelings.
ShootingStar1
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Posts: 1,452
"If there is any chance they will do the unforgivable thing again do not forgive it or it will make you unhappy. "
Carol, what do you mean by that?
I believe that my AH, beyond being an alcoholic, is a narcissist, and having tried so hard to have him understand what was going on, I do not think that he has the capacity to truly take in the consequences of his actions. That part was not just alcoholism, though the alcoholism released his rage and loosened his inhibitions and aggravated his behavior. So yes, I would expect him to do the same again.
"Perhaps begin with forgiving yourself for not being honest with yourself first. The rest can wait."
I wasn't dishonest with myself. There is nothing that I need to forgive myself about in terms of lying.
Yes, I was co-dependent and what I did made the situation worse, and I regret that and own it. But that's not what I'm talking about.
I didn't lie to myself. I just didn't understand. It was incomprehensible to me that someone could do those things. I was in the middle of trees, large, small, here, there, and I couldn't make message of it; I couldn't see the forest. If I understood at all, it was on an unconscious plane, and not until the few months before I left did I have any real comprehension of what was happening to me. What I let happen to me. I own the results of my oblivion.
Or are you talking about what I said about turning my feelings in on myself when I feel rage against my AH instead of recognizing them and owning them?
Dishonest just doesn't seem like the right concept. Duped by my own stupidity, yes. Far too willing to believe the best of others, even when the evidence is there, yes.
Am I missing something in your meaning, hydrogirl?
ShootingGirl1
Carol, what do you mean by that?
I believe that my AH, beyond being an alcoholic, is a narcissist, and having tried so hard to have him understand what was going on, I do not think that he has the capacity to truly take in the consequences of his actions. That part was not just alcoholism, though the alcoholism released his rage and loosened his inhibitions and aggravated his behavior. So yes, I would expect him to do the same again.
"Perhaps begin with forgiving yourself for not being honest with yourself first. The rest can wait."
I wasn't dishonest with myself. There is nothing that I need to forgive myself about in terms of lying.
Yes, I was co-dependent and what I did made the situation worse, and I regret that and own it. But that's not what I'm talking about.
I didn't lie to myself. I just didn't understand. It was incomprehensible to me that someone could do those things. I was in the middle of trees, large, small, here, there, and I couldn't make message of it; I couldn't see the forest. If I understood at all, it was on an unconscious plane, and not until the few months before I left did I have any real comprehension of what was happening to me. What I let happen to me. I own the results of my oblivion.
Or are you talking about what I said about turning my feelings in on myself when I feel rage against my AH instead of recognizing them and owning them?
Dishonest just doesn't seem like the right concept. Duped by my own stupidity, yes. Far too willing to believe the best of others, even when the evidence is there, yes.
Am I missing something in your meaning, hydrogirl?
ShootingGirl1
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Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,754
Hi Shootingstar, it's so funny that I read this early this morning.
Yesterday I was incredibly upset in the morning to the point of breaking down in the parking lot of Starbucks, I was pretty much driving around in a daze, I was processing, the manager at Starbucks even commented that I was in my own little world, she said she could feel my energy.
I was feeling so sad about the pain and suffering I endured in my relationship with my xa, about how I allowed myself to be treated in such a horrible way, the silent treatment, the name calling, the emotional abuse, etc etc etc, the realality of the situation was hitting me.. I realized they my psyche had been protecting me from the feelings, and that now slowly they were bubbling up. In some ways it felt very balancing.
For me, it's not about forgivness at this point, it's about acceptence, and moving on, it's about awareness, and finally seeing that I am a good person, I deserve good things, that this time I have a chance to get the things that are my human right to have, respect, love, kindness, compassion.
As far as my ex, I feel just kind of numb at this point, but one thing I actually feel good about is the fact that I treated him well, i did not bow to his viciousness, I did not treat him in the hurtful, malicious way that he treated me, and I feel good about that, I feel good about the fact that I treated him with respect, that I did not attack his wounds as he did mine, that in the face of such emotional distress I was still able to maintain kindness. It's about me at this point, and the lessons I walk away with, and knowing moving forward that I deserve to be treated well , and that saying no is acceptable, being alone is okay.
Your anger is normal, please have compassion for yourself, you are moving through lots of hard feelings, you have been abused, you need time, underneath those feelings is you, a wonderful, strong, beautiful woman.
I still have healing to do , feelings and realizations to move through, but I believe in this process , and myself, and I believe in you too. Be kind to yourself, hold youself in the highest reguard, the anger will lessen in time, it's been a whirlwind for you, rest if you can, and be extra good to yourself.
You are healing. Katie
Yesterday I was incredibly upset in the morning to the point of breaking down in the parking lot of Starbucks, I was pretty much driving around in a daze, I was processing, the manager at Starbucks even commented that I was in my own little world, she said she could feel my energy.
I was feeling so sad about the pain and suffering I endured in my relationship with my xa, about how I allowed myself to be treated in such a horrible way, the silent treatment, the name calling, the emotional abuse, etc etc etc, the realality of the situation was hitting me.. I realized they my psyche had been protecting me from the feelings, and that now slowly they were bubbling up. In some ways it felt very balancing.
For me, it's not about forgivness at this point, it's about acceptence, and moving on, it's about awareness, and finally seeing that I am a good person, I deserve good things, that this time I have a chance to get the things that are my human right to have, respect, love, kindness, compassion.
As far as my ex, I feel just kind of numb at this point, but one thing I actually feel good about is the fact that I treated him well, i did not bow to his viciousness, I did not treat him in the hurtful, malicious way that he treated me, and I feel good about that, I feel good about the fact that I treated him with respect, that I did not attack his wounds as he did mine, that in the face of such emotional distress I was still able to maintain kindness. It's about me at this point, and the lessons I walk away with, and knowing moving forward that I deserve to be treated well , and that saying no is acceptable, being alone is okay.
Your anger is normal, please have compassion for yourself, you are moving through lots of hard feelings, you have been abused, you need time, underneath those feelings is you, a wonderful, strong, beautiful woman.
I still have healing to do , feelings and realizations to move through, but I believe in this process , and myself, and I believe in you too. Be kind to yourself, hold youself in the highest reguard, the anger will lessen in time, it's been a whirlwind for you, rest if you can, and be extra good to yourself.
You are healing. Katie
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ShootingStar-
It is coming up a little different for me right now.
I have realized that detachment is the process of figuring out what is mine and what is not...and only taking on the part that is mine.
I have for my whole life decided that detachment was not feeling when something hurt me....compartmentalizing it away because it was "not meant" etc.
I am finally realizing that I have feelings about stuff that is not mine. I am hurt my exAH behavior, I hate the disease of alcoholism etc.
Just having all these feelings can be overwhelming.
I too often "forgive" easily, but really I am learning that I take it underground and whip myself for having feelings about what happened.
I did not beat myself up so much while learning about grief recovery (all those stages...one of which is anger). I also realized to heal from something I had to feel it (not stuff it away).
Finally for me there was a book that helped get a handle on this (and gave me permission to not have to forgive). Janis Abrahm Spring "How Can I Forgive You and the Freedom Not To." Her main work is affairs, but this is not focused on affairs and it was really helpful to me. I think Tuffgirl has another great book suggestion about forgiveness that I have not read yet.
I am so glad you are feeling, though I suspect it is a hard place to be.
It is coming up a little different for me right now.
I have realized that detachment is the process of figuring out what is mine and what is not...and only taking on the part that is mine.
I have for my whole life decided that detachment was not feeling when something hurt me....compartmentalizing it away because it was "not meant" etc.
I am finally realizing that I have feelings about stuff that is not mine. I am hurt my exAH behavior, I hate the disease of alcoholism etc.
Just having all these feelings can be overwhelming.
I too often "forgive" easily, but really I am learning that I take it underground and whip myself for having feelings about what happened.
I did not beat myself up so much while learning about grief recovery (all those stages...one of which is anger). I also realized to heal from something I had to feel it (not stuff it away).
Finally for me there was a book that helped get a handle on this (and gave me permission to not have to forgive). Janis Abrahm Spring "How Can I Forgive You and the Freedom Not To." Her main work is affairs, but this is not focused on affairs and it was really helpful to me. I think Tuffgirl has another great book suggestion about forgiveness that I have not read yet.
I am so glad you are feeling, though I suspect it is a hard place to be.
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Well, when I read this it really made me think that it would be therapeutic and somewhat cathartic to spend a few hours with your ex helping to understand what it's like when someone bigger and stronger than you imposes thier will on you and makes you cry.
Then I remembered that I'm a civilized Neanderthal and don't do that sort of thing.
I started reading thinking I'd try to find some really eloquent way to articulate the benefits of forgivenesss to your own well being and I'm sure down the road I will think hard about that. Forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves after all and has nothing to do with those who trespass against us. Anger and resentment leads only to bitterness and bitterness is much like taking a large glass of poison then waiting for the other person to die.
Maybe next week we will talk about how forgiving yourself and forgiving your ex are steps on your path to recovery.
Today? Today let's just go ahead emote what we really feel instead of holding it in. I'm angry for you. I have an issue with bullies. When I come across them I feel compelled to do anything within my power to get between them and those they dominate and invite them to play with me instead. That's my brain. The world is filled with wolves, sheep and sheepdogs. I'm a sheepdog and what you described just got that low growl going strong.
You've taken time to reach out and help me with my comparatively trivial list of things I've been whining about while dealing with this?
You can forgive later, for your own health. For today let's just work on letting you know that we care. For now just work on understanding that you are good and deserving of love and kindness and friends who would stand behind you and step between you and harm because you have worth. Good people, kind and decent people are thankful to count you as a friend. The world is better with you in it and needs you to get better and heal from this so that you can help mark the path to wellness for others who follow you.
You are among friends. Thanks for sharing and you can take a day off from rage - your friends are handling that one for you, get some rest and take care of you today.
Do forgive yourself though. It doesn't matter WHEN you grew strong enough to get out, just THAT you did and had you not then we'd be poorer without you.
Hugs.
C.
Then I remembered that I'm a civilized Neanderthal and don't do that sort of thing.
I started reading thinking I'd try to find some really eloquent way to articulate the benefits of forgivenesss to your own well being and I'm sure down the road I will think hard about that. Forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves after all and has nothing to do with those who trespass against us. Anger and resentment leads only to bitterness and bitterness is much like taking a large glass of poison then waiting for the other person to die.
Maybe next week we will talk about how forgiving yourself and forgiving your ex are steps on your path to recovery.
Today? Today let's just go ahead emote what we really feel instead of holding it in. I'm angry for you. I have an issue with bullies. When I come across them I feel compelled to do anything within my power to get between them and those they dominate and invite them to play with me instead. That's my brain. The world is filled with wolves, sheep and sheepdogs. I'm a sheepdog and what you described just got that low growl going strong.
You've taken time to reach out and help me with my comparatively trivial list of things I've been whining about while dealing with this?
You can forgive later, for your own health. For today let's just work on letting you know that we care. For now just work on understanding that you are good and deserving of love and kindness and friends who would stand behind you and step between you and harm because you have worth. Good people, kind and decent people are thankful to count you as a friend. The world is better with you in it and needs you to get better and heal from this so that you can help mark the path to wellness for others who follow you.
You are among friends. Thanks for sharing and you can take a day off from rage - your friends are handling that one for you, get some rest and take care of you today.
Do forgive yourself though. It doesn't matter WHEN you grew strong enough to get out, just THAT you did and had you not then we'd be poorer without you.
Hugs.
C.
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,243
To everything there is a season.... Ask your HP to help you find the life lessons in this time of anger that will help you see the "red flags" of toxic people before we become enmeshed in dysfunctional harmful relationships.
I had an amazing encounter with my HP yesterday that may help you. 4 years ago I was deeply wounded and betrayed by someone who told lies about me in a nonprofit that I was one of the founders. This man has a local ministry himself and I wanted to seek out and defend myself against his secret campaign of whispers. Through counsel of my pastor and me spiritual mentors I never pursued this path. Yesterday the board asked us both to their meeting and the truth was exposed and all were impacted because they had listened to and believed his lies.
His character was revealed without my opening my mouth and had I gone around seeking out people and trying to find out if he had defamed me and defended myself I could not have said that I kept quiet for the good of the organization.
Your HP knows the truth and your heart. Ask to be helped in your healing process.
There were some who had wanted to invite him on the board but I doubt this will happen now. At the time this was going on I questioned God but more was revealed.
Your XA is obviously a toxic broken person and as an ACOA Codie I probably would be attracted to him like a moth to flaming candle. But.... Today I would "see with my new pair of glasses" and talk myself back from the ledge before listening to charming bs of a manipulative selfish exploiting A.
I got from the place of raging anger to serenity, peace ang forgiveness by my own path of recovery. No one can put me into a position of such harm if I stay out of harms way.
My picker was broken. My picker still likes the wrong guys! My picker no longer runs the show!
Have you jumped into alanon? Got a sponsor? Done the steps? That's what set me free and created my new world that is happy and joyous!
I had an amazing encounter with my HP yesterday that may help you. 4 years ago I was deeply wounded and betrayed by someone who told lies about me in a nonprofit that I was one of the founders. This man has a local ministry himself and I wanted to seek out and defend myself against his secret campaign of whispers. Through counsel of my pastor and me spiritual mentors I never pursued this path. Yesterday the board asked us both to their meeting and the truth was exposed and all were impacted because they had listened to and believed his lies.
His character was revealed without my opening my mouth and had I gone around seeking out people and trying to find out if he had defamed me and defended myself I could not have said that I kept quiet for the good of the organization.
Your HP knows the truth and your heart. Ask to be helped in your healing process.
There were some who had wanted to invite him on the board but I doubt this will happen now. At the time this was going on I questioned God but more was revealed.
Your XA is obviously a toxic broken person and as an ACOA Codie I probably would be attracted to him like a moth to flaming candle. But.... Today I would "see with my new pair of glasses" and talk myself back from the ledge before listening to charming bs of a manipulative selfish exploiting A.
I got from the place of raging anger to serenity, peace ang forgiveness by my own path of recovery. No one can put me into a position of such harm if I stay out of harms way.
My picker was broken. My picker still likes the wrong guys! My picker no longer runs the show!
Have you jumped into alanon? Got a sponsor? Done the steps? That's what set me free and created my new world that is happy and joyous!
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Here is what I have learned about forgiveness:
1. It is a process, not an event. In order for it to happen, all of the feelings about what has happened must be felt and worked through to resolution. Forgiveness is not a shortcut around those feelings.
2. It does not "wipe the slate clean". What happened has still happened, was wrong and is not forgotten or nullified. Forgiveness is a letting go of the poisonous legacy of the wrong that was done, so that WE can move on with peace. It is nothing more than that.
1. It is a process, not an event. In order for it to happen, all of the feelings about what has happened must be felt and worked through to resolution. Forgiveness is not a shortcut around those feelings.
2. It does not "wipe the slate clean". What happened has still happened, was wrong and is not forgotten or nullified. Forgiveness is a letting go of the poisonous legacy of the wrong that was done, so that WE can move on with peace. It is nothing more than that.
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 391
Originally Posted by ShootingStar1 
This is different. This man set out to do what he had to do to survive by aggrandizing himself. In his behavioral code, for someone to succeed, someone else had to fail. He didn’t want the scales between him and me balanced, equal amounts of gold on each side. That was failure to him; that was unbearable competition; that was an intolerable lack of power.
Shootingstar,
I say ride this wave of anger right now. You are far too bright, caring and introspective to let it "eat at your insides" as the saying goes. Maybe this is a necessary purging - the beginning of a process that will result in healing and acceptance. He is not entitled to your forgiveness and you are under no obligation to give it to him.
But it is important to forgive yourself. You so profoundly described what you were up against in the quote above that so resonated with me. You were in an impossible situation and your actions, whatever they were, are all connected with his sick behavior. I often think of you driving down that long, dark road the night you left. How brave you were/are. You did not set out to hurt him - you were caught up in his illness. Give yourself the gift of forgiveness -you deserve it.
As always, thank you for your powerful and thought-provoking words.
Hugs,
MamaKit
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,452
Out of the darkness, into the light
That is how I feel as I read your responses.
Thank you all so much, you have comforted me greatly.
POH, thank you for your offer of an uncivilized Neanderthal to take him on. You made me laugh! He deserves it. He was raw unadulterated aggression and focused against me. My valiant little dog, though she loved me to pieces, was no match; I needed a fiercely loyal sheepdog to silence the howls of the wolves that circled me.
Mamakit, you said "I often think of you driving down that long, dark road the night you left." - In this post, I said "he isolated me on the top of a mountain in the woods hours away from my friends, with strange cultish neighbors and no family, refusing to join any community such as church, and antagonizing all the groups of people we did meet so that they would have nothing to do with us."
It is telling that the place I lived essentially became a metaphor for the emotional desolation I lived in. When I drove that long dark windy road, 7 miles to the bottom of the mountain, over and over I said the Lord's Prayer, the 23rd Psalm, and a spiritual prayer. My God led me down that mountain and without that I would be nothing. Deliverance was mine.
Detachment is the process of figuring out what is mine and what is not...and only taking on the part that is mine. Life Recovery
Forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves after all and has nothing to do with those who trespass against us. Poh's Friend
I realized that my psyche had been protecting me from the feelings, and that now slowly they were bubbling up. In some ways it felt very balancing.
For me, it's not about forgivness at this point, it's about acceptence, and moving on, it's about awareness, and finally seeing that I am a good person, I deserve good things, that this time I have a chance to get the things that are my human right to have, respect, love, kindness, compassion. KatieKate
Here is what I have learned about forgiveness:
1. It is a process, not an event. In order for it to happen, all of the feelings about what has happened must be felt and worked through to resolution. Forgiveness is not a shortcut around those feelings.
2. It does not "wipe the slate clean". What happened has still happened, was wrong and is not forgotten or nullified. Forgiveness is a letting go of the poisonous legacy of the wrong that was done, so that WE can move on with peace. It is nothing more than that. Only the truth
I will read and re-read all of your posts and try to absorb the wisdom here. All of you have touched my heart.
In the meantime, I needed you all , and you were there, you are here for me now. As I am for you, and for those who come after us.
ShootingStar1
That is how I feel as I read your responses.
Thank you all so much, you have comforted me greatly.
POH, thank you for your offer of an uncivilized Neanderthal to take him on. You made me laugh! He deserves it. He was raw unadulterated aggression and focused against me. My valiant little dog, though she loved me to pieces, was no match; I needed a fiercely loyal sheepdog to silence the howls of the wolves that circled me.
Mamakit, you said "I often think of you driving down that long, dark road the night you left." - In this post, I said "he isolated me on the top of a mountain in the woods hours away from my friends, with strange cultish neighbors and no family, refusing to join any community such as church, and antagonizing all the groups of people we did meet so that they would have nothing to do with us."
It is telling that the place I lived essentially became a metaphor for the emotional desolation I lived in. When I drove that long dark windy road, 7 miles to the bottom of the mountain, over and over I said the Lord's Prayer, the 23rd Psalm, and a spiritual prayer. My God led me down that mountain and without that I would be nothing. Deliverance was mine.
Detachment is the process of figuring out what is mine and what is not...and only taking on the part that is mine. Life Recovery
Forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves after all and has nothing to do with those who trespass against us. Poh's Friend
I realized that my psyche had been protecting me from the feelings, and that now slowly they were bubbling up. In some ways it felt very balancing.
For me, it's not about forgivness at this point, it's about acceptence, and moving on, it's about awareness, and finally seeing that I am a good person, I deserve good things, that this time I have a chance to get the things that are my human right to have, respect, love, kindness, compassion. KatieKate
Here is what I have learned about forgiveness:
1. It is a process, not an event. In order for it to happen, all of the feelings about what has happened must be felt and worked through to resolution. Forgiveness is not a shortcut around those feelings.
2. It does not "wipe the slate clean". What happened has still happened, was wrong and is not forgotten or nullified. Forgiveness is a letting go of the poisonous legacy of the wrong that was done, so that WE can move on with peace. It is nothing more than that. Only the truth
I will read and re-read all of your posts and try to absorb the wisdom here. All of you have touched my heart.
In the meantime, I needed you all , and you were there, you are here for me now. As I am for you, and for those who come after us.
ShootingStar1
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,452
I am spiritually ecumenical. In the post above, I mentioned the Lord's Prayer, the 23rd Psalm, and a third prayer.
I thought some of you might find it as comforting as I have. It is a Sufi prayer, from Pir Vilayat Inhayat Khan.
Nabi
A torch in the darkness, a staff during my weakness,
A rock in the weariness of life,
Thou, my Master, makest earth a paradise.
Thy thought giveth me unearthly joy, Thy light illuminateth my life’s path,
Thy words inspire me with divine wisdom, I follow in thy footsteps,
which lead me to the eternal goal.
Comforter of the broken-hearted, Support of those in need,
Friend of the lovers of truth,
Blessed Master, thou art the Prophet of God.
Amen.
I thought some of you might find it as comforting as I have. It is a Sufi prayer, from Pir Vilayat Inhayat Khan.
Nabi
A torch in the darkness, a staff during my weakness,
A rock in the weariness of life,
Thou, my Master, makest earth a paradise.
Thy thought giveth me unearthly joy, Thy light illuminateth my life’s path,
Thy words inspire me with divine wisdom, I follow in thy footsteps,
which lead me to the eternal goal.
Comforter of the broken-hearted, Support of those in need,
Friend of the lovers of truth,
Blessed Master, thou art the Prophet of God.
Amen.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,754
To Everything There is a Season
To everything there is a season
A time for every purpose under Heaven
A time to be born
and a time to die
A time to plant
and a time to pluck what is planted
A time to kill
and a time to heal
A time to break down
and a time to build up
A time to cast away stones
and a time to gather stones
A time to embrace
and a time to refrain from embracing
A time to gain
and a time to lose
A time to keep
and a time to cast away
A time to tear
and a time to sew
A time to keep silence
and a time to speak
A time of love
and a time of hate
A time of war
and a time of peace
Ivy Schex
The Byrds - Turn Turn Turn (To Everything There Is A Season) - YouTube
To everything there is a season
A time for every purpose under Heaven
A time to be born
and a time to die
A time to plant
and a time to pluck what is planted
A time to kill
and a time to heal
A time to break down
and a time to build up
A time to cast away stones
and a time to gather stones
A time to embrace
and a time to refrain from embracing
A time to gain
and a time to lose
A time to keep
and a time to cast away
A time to tear
and a time to sew
A time to keep silence
and a time to speak
A time of love
and a time of hate
A time of war
and a time of peace
Ivy Schex
The Byrds - Turn Turn Turn (To Everything There Is A Season) - YouTube
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 4,719
ShootingStar,
I am no where near forgiveness, and your ex makes my ex look like a saint!
I am in no hurry, either. As OTT said, this is a process. No declaration will make it so. It isn't about shifting my perspectives and viewing the situation differently, or having loads of compassion. I intellectually understand addictions and mental illness, but I no longer allow that understanding to be an excuse for unacceptable behavior. It is NO EXCUSE.
So don't feel like there has to be some rush to be in a place of forgiveness. I don't think there is anything wrong with being f'in pi$$ed off, either. My anger has helped me deal with some seriously messed up situations in ways that allowed me to protect myself and my kids. For that, I am grateful. Anger does serve a purpose...it is often our biggest motivator, next to pain.
So know I am right there with you. I don't forgive. Not yet, and probably not for a while. I didn't ask to have my life turned inside out by someone else's issues. I didn't knowingly invite that into my life or my kids' lives. It was dumped on me, selfishly, by a person incapable of caring about anyone but himself. Am I angry about that? Hell yes!
But like others here say - I did have to work on forgiving myself for allowing things to progress in ways I should not have. I exposed my kids to things they didn't need to see. I taught them some unhealthy behaviors that I've spent almost two years trying to undo. I made mistakes. I was in denial. Like you, I can't imagine being so cruel to another human being. I also can't imagine marrying someone only to set up a power struggle and competition, and make every below-the-belt attempt to "win". That is not who I am.
So vent away - scream in the car. Go in the woods (or on the shore, if I remember correctly) and throw rocks. Burn stuff (carefully, LOL!) Let it all out, because if we don't, it weighs us down even more than we already are.
Peace today!
~T
I am no where near forgiveness, and your ex makes my ex look like a saint!
I am in no hurry, either. As OTT said, this is a process. No declaration will make it so. It isn't about shifting my perspectives and viewing the situation differently, or having loads of compassion. I intellectually understand addictions and mental illness, but I no longer allow that understanding to be an excuse for unacceptable behavior. It is NO EXCUSE.
So don't feel like there has to be some rush to be in a place of forgiveness. I don't think there is anything wrong with being f'in pi$$ed off, either. My anger has helped me deal with some seriously messed up situations in ways that allowed me to protect myself and my kids. For that, I am grateful. Anger does serve a purpose...it is often our biggest motivator, next to pain.
So know I am right there with you. I don't forgive. Not yet, and probably not for a while. I didn't ask to have my life turned inside out by someone else's issues. I didn't knowingly invite that into my life or my kids' lives. It was dumped on me, selfishly, by a person incapable of caring about anyone but himself. Am I angry about that? Hell yes!
But like others here say - I did have to work on forgiving myself for allowing things to progress in ways I should not have. I exposed my kids to things they didn't need to see. I taught them some unhealthy behaviors that I've spent almost two years trying to undo. I made mistakes. I was in denial. Like you, I can't imagine being so cruel to another human being. I also can't imagine marrying someone only to set up a power struggle and competition, and make every below-the-belt attempt to "win". That is not who I am.
So vent away - scream in the car. Go in the woods (or on the shore, if I remember correctly) and throw rocks. Burn stuff (carefully, LOL!) Let it all out, because if we don't, it weighs us down even more than we already are.
Peace today!
~T
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,780
Very interesting thread.
I absolutely agree with this.
I struggle with forgiveness, at times, as well. I consider myself a grudge-monster, it's one of the things I have had to work hardest at understanding & putting into action in my life.
My question: Can you HAVE forgiveness for someone who is not truly sorry for their actions or the hurt that they've caused you? Or does it become more a practice of acceptance/detachment in that case? Is it just semantics or is there a difference?
Originally Posted by onlythetruth
Here is what I have learned about forgiveness:
1. It is a process, not an event. In order for it to happen, all of the feelings about what has happened must be felt and worked through to resolution. Forgiveness is not a shortcut around those feelings.
2. It does not "wipe the slate clean". What happened has still happened, was wrong and is not forgotten or nullified. Forgiveness is a letting go of the poisonous legacy of the wrong that was done, so that WE can move on with peace. It is nothing more than that.
1. It is a process, not an event. In order for it to happen, all of the feelings about what has happened must be felt and worked through to resolution. Forgiveness is not a shortcut around those feelings.
2. It does not "wipe the slate clean". What happened has still happened, was wrong and is not forgotten or nullified. Forgiveness is a letting go of the poisonous legacy of the wrong that was done, so that WE can move on with peace. It is nothing more than that.
I struggle with forgiveness, at times, as well. I consider myself a grudge-monster, it's one of the things I have had to work hardest at understanding & putting into action in my life.
My question: Can you HAVE forgiveness for someone who is not truly sorry for their actions or the hurt that they've caused you? Or does it become more a practice of acceptance/detachment in that case? Is it just semantics or is there a difference?
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: New England
Posts: 350
I think it's okay not to forgive someone. It may come, it may not. In the meantime, I think it's NOT okay to beat up on yourself. ShootingStar, you said "And I, shame on me, couldn’t see it happen.." No shame. None at all. You did the best you knew under terrible oppression.
We have this idea that we "should" forgive. I think there is a fine line of difference between not forgiving someone and holding a grudge against someone. Holding a grudge, well, there's that saying that resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die. Forgiveness is a little different, not that I can articulate just how!
It took me a while to find this quote. It helped me a lot in forgiving myself for not forgiving someone else, if that makes any sense. I hope it's of use to you. Be well.
"My experience with forgiveness is that it sort of comes spontaneously at a certain point and to try to force it it's not really forgiveness. It's Buddhist philosophy or something spiritual jargon that you're trying to live up to but you're just using it against yourself as a reason why you're not okay."
~Pema Chödrön
We have this idea that we "should" forgive. I think there is a fine line of difference between not forgiving someone and holding a grudge against someone. Holding a grudge, well, there's that saying that resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die. Forgiveness is a little different, not that I can articulate just how!
It took me a while to find this quote. It helped me a lot in forgiving myself for not forgiving someone else, if that makes any sense. I hope it's of use to you. Be well.
"My experience with forgiveness is that it sort of comes spontaneously at a certain point and to try to force it it's not really forgiveness. It's Buddhist philosophy or something spiritual jargon that you're trying to live up to but you're just using it against yourself as a reason why you're not okay."
~Pema Chödrön
A jug fills drop by drop
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,784
In my case I have felt the need to forgive my dad. I suffer from pain in the knees and I know it is because "I no longer want to walk/move forward".
I know this is a needed step because I no longer wish to hang around nor "fall in love' with my parents. I would like to have mates at one point in my life. I would like to stop the madness and the nightmares I have lived in , when it comes to romance.
I agree this is entirely for me and has nothing to do with the wellbeing of my dad. He has his own conscience.
But one thing is to listen to our hearts and the other is to listen to our mind and should's, have to's, logical 'musts'.
I have had a lot of time by myself to put my hand over my heart at night - do it, it works- and I feel this is what is needed. No it was not ok, what he did. And this is also true: it is just UNACCEPTABLE for me to continue carrying trash in my heart. It is not even mine.
We have to remove stuff in order to welcome new stuff. I look forward to this renewal. Not only working to heal, but seeing what lies beyond - enjoyment of the universe. Lol. (I read this phrase yesterday in a book called 'Loving relationships' ). Experiencing different things and not the same old abandonment story I know so well.
I wish for more for myself.. I , tc999, deserve to live a different story, before its too late. After all we never know when our time comes.
I know this is a needed step because I no longer wish to hang around nor "fall in love' with my parents. I would like to have mates at one point in my life. I would like to stop the madness and the nightmares I have lived in , when it comes to romance.
I agree this is entirely for me and has nothing to do with the wellbeing of my dad. He has his own conscience.
But one thing is to listen to our hearts and the other is to listen to our mind and should's, have to's, logical 'musts'.
I have had a lot of time by myself to put my hand over my heart at night - do it, it works- and I feel this is what is needed. No it was not ok, what he did. And this is also true: it is just UNACCEPTABLE for me to continue carrying trash in my heart. It is not even mine.
We have to remove stuff in order to welcome new stuff. I look forward to this renewal. Not only working to heal, but seeing what lies beyond - enjoyment of the universe. Lol. (I read this phrase yesterday in a book called 'Loving relationships' ). Experiencing different things and not the same old abandonment story I know so well.
I wish for more for myself.. I , tc999, deserve to live a different story, before its too late. After all we never know when our time comes.
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Location: right here, right now
Posts: 6,516
For me, I've re-discovering a fleeting insight I've had now and then. There is a certain kind of magnanimity that I have felt sometimes in the past when I extended myself to "forgive" someone that had a tone of grandiosity to it.
And it always came back to bite me. I think I was giving away something I didn't have to give. I think I was doing that to make myself feel like a bigger, better person. When inside me were totally different feelings that were not half so pleasant. But they were fierce. And pent up. And determined to be expressed one way or another.
And it always came back to bite me. I think I was giving away something I didn't have to give. I think I was doing that to make myself feel like a bigger, better person. When inside me were totally different feelings that were not half so pleasant. But they were fierce. And pent up. And determined to be expressed one way or another.
I've been told (and probably said, myself, at times) that "forgiveness is not a feeling, it's a decision."
Well, I sort of think that's some pretty advanced
at this point in my life. Because my experience is just like yours -- when I forced myself to forgive, it wasn't forgiveness. I did a little superior dance and felt like I was so much better than the person I was allegedly "forgiving" because they were bad people and I had decided to be magnanimous and not hold it against them. All the while wishing the karma bus would run them over. Pronto.You have every right to be angry. I can't say I'm anywhere close to forgiving my AXH. I've gone from wishing him a painful excruciating torturously slow death to sometimes having compassion for him, stuck as he is in a hell on earth. Realizing that hey, being an alcoholic is pretty much a painful excruciating torturously slow death. And feeling compassion for him for choosing to not get off that path despite the option being available to him.
I can rationally see that his alcoholism prevents him from understanding the width of the hurt he has caused. That doesn't mean he is not responsible for that harm. It just means he doesn't know he is. And that nothing I can do or say will ever make him see the extent of the damage he has done. And maybe that's as close as I'll ever get to forgiveness -- let go of the desire to try to make him understand and make him suffer.
Causing irreparable harm to the people God has given you to protect is something that is hard to forgive. I can let go of it, I can name it and explain it and know why he was able to do things that were outright evil. Can I forgive it? I don't know. Do I have an obligation to? I don't know. Should I try? In my mind, only to the extent it helps me.
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Right here, right now!
Posts: 3,424
This poem helped too:
By Rumi, 13th century Persian poet and theologian
This being human is a guest house,
every morning a new arrival
A joy, a depression, a meaness,
some momentary awareness comes
as an unexpected visitor.
Welcome and entertain them all!
Even if they are a crowd of sorrows,
who violently sweep your house
empty of its furniture,
still treat each guest honourably.
He may be clearing you out for
some new delight.
The dark thought, the shame,
The malice,
meet them at the door laughing,
and invite them in.
Be grateful for whoever comes,
Because each has been sent
as a guide from beyond.
It gave permission for me to have whatever was there.
By Rumi, 13th century Persian poet and theologian
This being human is a guest house,
every morning a new arrival
A joy, a depression, a meaness,
some momentary awareness comes
as an unexpected visitor.
Welcome and entertain them all!
Even if they are a crowd of sorrows,
who violently sweep your house
empty of its furniture,
still treat each guest honourably.
He may be clearing you out for
some new delight.
The dark thought, the shame,
The malice,
meet them at the door laughing,
and invite them in.
Be grateful for whoever comes,
Because each has been sent
as a guide from beyond.
It gave permission for me to have whatever was there.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 2
This is the first time I have posted on SR, though I have been reading here for some months, and learnt so much.
ShootingStar, I just wanted to say I identify so much with your opening post about forgiveness. It happens that I am severely down today, and dreading the court hearing I have scheduled for the 19th for spousal support. My husband is an alcoholic, abusive narcisissist who wears a mask of intellectual credibility and appears a cultured, "reasonable" man when on show. A great teacher, revered by his students.
He has stolen 20 years of my life, crushed my soul , chipped away relentlessly at my self confidence, so that I feel everything about myself is worthless and ugly. But we have two lovely teen daughters who are the lights of my life. And I have a good therapist.
Sorry, I am hijacking your thread with my own story. Forgiveness? Can I forgive myself for not leaving 15 years ago when the verbal abuse started in earnest? Can I forgive my own foolish heart, my capacity for self deception. Forgive HIM? No. I do not want to live my remaining years (am nearly 60) in bitterness and anger. But I do not forgive evil. And I, who used to try to see "the best" in everyone, see only irredeemable evil. I may let go, I will have to move on, but cannot forgive.
I will go back and read all your posts, ShootingStar. I feel a kinship. I suppose I search for acceptance and a renewed sense of faith, taking into account what we know now, post the XAH?
ShootingStar, I just wanted to say I identify so much with your opening post about forgiveness. It happens that I am severely down today, and dreading the court hearing I have scheduled for the 19th for spousal support. My husband is an alcoholic, abusive narcisissist who wears a mask of intellectual credibility and appears a cultured, "reasonable" man when on show. A great teacher, revered by his students.
He has stolen 20 years of my life, crushed my soul , chipped away relentlessly at my self confidence, so that I feel everything about myself is worthless and ugly. But we have two lovely teen daughters who are the lights of my life. And I have a good therapist.
Sorry, I am hijacking your thread with my own story. Forgiveness? Can I forgive myself for not leaving 15 years ago when the verbal abuse started in earnest? Can I forgive my own foolish heart, my capacity for self deception. Forgive HIM? No. I do not want to live my remaining years (am nearly 60) in bitterness and anger. But I do not forgive evil. And I, who used to try to see "the best" in everyone, see only irredeemable evil. I may let go, I will have to move on, but cannot forgive.
I will go back and read all your posts, ShootingStar. I feel a kinship. I suppose I search for acceptance and a renewed sense of faith, taking into account what we know now, post the XAH?
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