clink

I posted this in the alcoholics section too, as I'm curious about how both sides will respond...

I know I'm gonna get so much flack for making this statement, but co-dependency? It sounds like a made up word. I've read about it in the friends and family section and in the alcoholics section too. According to the definition, if I am co-dependent, my husband must be a narcissist? right? But then I read alcoholics talk about how they are co-dependent. I'm so confused. Can you be a narcissist and co-dependent at the same time?

Had I been using this site regularly while my husband was drinking, I would have been told over and over to leave him, that I was co-dependent. Maybe I should have, maybe I was/am?? But we are still together, still a family with our two young children, and slowly growing closer and getting healthier. I know the kids and I were put through stuff, terrible stuff, but I kept thinking this isn't him, this is the alcohol. Does that thinking make me co-dependent and weak? Or a supportive loving partner who was incredibly strong and kick ass for enduring? Am I an idiot for sticking with him? Or am I an incredibly strong woman who not only cared for two young children all on her own, but helped her husband to confront and conquer something that was killing him?

Anyway, just processing this all out loud and am interested to see the comments that follow. I had never really thought about myself as a co-dependent, and it is a label that makes me squirm. Does anybody else feel this way?

Thanks for hearing me!

C

betterthanbefor

I know the feeling, it's hard to tell the difference between standing by your partner & sticking on em. I think co-dependant people are afraid of being alone so they stay & stick w/the abuse etc. My husband used to be an angry sad drunk but when he is sober, he's great. So I stood by him knowing that light inside him would come back, & it did. Now it's me trying to get on track. Hope it all goes well for you

LaTeeDa

It made me squirm at first, too. Like there was something "wrong" with me. And, by God, there was nothing wrong with me! I was doing everything "right!" It was my husband who had the problem, not me!

It's taken a few years, but I now see codependency as a set of learned behaviors. And I learned them long before I was ever married to an alcoholic. Knowing that has actually been quite empowering for me, because if I can label it, and know what it is, I can change it. And I was doing everything "right." At least right according to what I knew at the time. It's how I was raised. How could I know anything different? I've learned that my way of relating to the world around me was heavily influenced by growing up with an alcoholic, compulsive gambling father and a raging, codependent mother.

I actively went about learning new behaviors, and yes, even new beliefs about myself and the world. I only wish I hadn't waited until I was in my forties to do so. My life is so much better than I ever believed it could be. I look at the discovery of my codependence as a gift. It brought me to a much better place and started me on a path that has been nothing less than amazing.

I will not tell you to leave your husband. But, I will suggest that you dig deep within yourself and try to discover just what led you down this path, and with that, you may discover some things that will improve your life tremendously--regardless of whether your husband stays sober or not.

L

Loopydays

I find this an interesting topic- I am Codependent. I have no problem saying or thinking it- but then I not that interested in labels. I view Labels as indictative of what we are- not a description of our Whole being. I also see 'Codependent' as a word of action, a verb not a noun- when I am Codependent, I am usually obsessing over other people, trying to change their behaviour to fit in with mine. I have read quite a lot on Codependency, and whereas there is a lot of behaviours described that make me squirm- I finally realised that I was not mad or insane- I was suffering from behaviours that have been nurtured by living with alcoholism since I was born.

The interesting thing about this topic is that the more I have read up about Codependency- the more I realise how Codependent my RAH is and has been -
I am still with my husband- after 25 years of constant steady drinking he is sober, and I feel that I owe him a chance to recover fully, and give him a chance. I see this as Codependent- his wish to try to live with us in a new way, I see as Codependent- but we are all works in progress- every day is a new learning curve.
I suppose the difference is in our opinions- you seem to think that being Codependent is a sign of weakness- I do not-- like you I feel that I am an incredibly strong woman who cared for 3 children on my own, ran a house, looked after her alcoholic mother for years- I also see the strength that I now have to have to live with an alcoholic in recovery, very depressed teenager and financial ruin!
I am strong and codependent JMHO

lillamy

It makes you neither. It just means you made the choice you made.
If being supportive and loving could make people find recovery and sobriety, this site wouldn't exist.

ricmcc

For what it is worth, when I decided to stop drinking last March 30th, it was my decision to do so, not something that anyone other than myself forced me to do; I say this only to indicate that drinking was my problem, I really never felt that it indicated any particular pathology on my wife's part. That said, we are both happier now that I don't drink, but I never felt that she was in any way responsable for my drinking, or got anything out of it by being "co-dependant", or was in anyway "co-dependant". I hope that speaks to your question, I really don't know alot about the concept. Am glad that things worked out well for you, tho Rick

LifeRecovery

I am healing from an addiction, and also healing from my codependent behaviors.

I work in the medical field and I hate disease "labels" as we call them. Instead of saying "They are diabetic," I try to consciously state they are living with diabetes.

I am a person living with an eating disorder and codependency. Neither defines me, but they are a part of me and impact my behaviors. I think that codependency can go hand and hand with lots of disorders. For me my eating disorder was the only thing that I put myself first on...in front of my needs to make it okay for everyone else.

For me the problem is not that I am kind, considerate and thinking of others....it is that I never thought of myself in that mix. That was the part of me that I now call codependent.

I was codependent prior to ever meeting my loved one that got me here. I did not grow up with active addiction but I did grow up with two parents who had grown up with active addiction.

I think choosing recovery (regardless of what that looks like for you) is strong. I had to learn though that having feelings about something did not make me weak.

For me there has also been many, many layer of codependency....one of them being what it is, what it means and if I was living with it or not.

Great topic.

NYCDoglvr

I've been sober two decades and going to Alanon a long time. For me the difference between an alcoholic and a codependent is the presence/absence of booze.

Tuffgirl

Clink, I hear what you are saying - but this sentence is one I disagree with. I've been a part of SR for two years, and Al-Anon for 2.5 years. I have yet to be told that I am codependent and needed to leave my alcoholic husband. I don't understand why folks come here with the assumption they are going to be told to leave someone just because they are an alcoholic, and maybe codependent. Rarely do I see that, unless there is serious abuse going on or a person is complaining over and over again about things and folks get tired of the complaining and point out "you can leave anytime..."

Now being told you are codependent...well...that happens all the time, and why wouldn't it? Most folks who are dealing with addictions exhibit codependent traits. Its endemic to the addiction process. Doesn't mean someone is necessarily codependent, just that some of the ways they are acting/thinking/behaving fit that classification. I think its more of an awareness thing that pointing a finger and labeling anyone who comes here.

I agree with lillamy - you aren't one or the other - you are a woman who made a choice that works for you and your family. And that's awesome! Some of us here left active addicts. Some of us got left by them. Some are still with, and some are with addicts in recovery. Some of us had loved ones who died from this disease. But all of us have exhibited codependent traits in our lives and come here looking for resources, advice, strength, and hope. Many find that here, some don't. And some of us - myself included - are so grateful that we stick around to pay it forward.

WishingWell

Had I been using this site regularly while my husband was drinking, I would have been told over and over to leave him, that I was co-dependent. Maybe I should have, maybe I was/am?? But we are still together, still a family with our two young children, and slowly growing closer and getting healthier. I know the kids and I were put through stuff, terrible stuff, but I kept thinking this isn't him, this is the alcohol. Does that thinking make me co-dependent and weak?

Completely agree with you. Sometimes feel like it's a crowd mentality chanting - JUMP - or rather LEAVE. Get out. Though oviously not said with meanness and is meant kindly - it makes me uncomfortable. This site is incredible but could use more balance. Just my opinion. I love my husband, been married over 20 years. A great man, loving, kind, talented - who's been treating an addiction. Went though hard stuff (as all marriages do) glad we're together, and plan on staying. We've both changed and are still changing ourselves. I don't think those sentiments stand alone, but we don't hear them much here, unfortunately. Again, I surmise it's because this is crisis central - which serves an invaluable purpose. I don't think it's a conscious decision - but I do agree leaving is a primary message given when partners come on here having issues with addiction. What I think happens is that some people are still working through their own break-ups, pain and anger and can't imagine that anyone else can last or even should - and want to protect others from that pain. Understandable human nature, and in same cases leaving IS 100% the right message but it's certainly not for all! There are many ways to look at the words "detachment" and "letting go" that have nothing to do with leaving. It refers to our own internal growth. I have many examples of successful marriages that involve addictions in my life.

I'm not a big fan of labels and "co-dependency" is a broad brush. Sometimes it's easier to use it here so others have a reference. I have friends married to people struggling with different addictions who've handled it very differently than I have. While I post what I think is a novel break-through research idea that says that a sober partner should continue with their life, don't let someone else's addiction alter your decisions - I have friends who literally do that naturally. Without a second thought - and have had a lot of success in their life reacting that way. They don't "care-take" or try to "fix". Help, yes! And it's strong and straightforward. My habits of reacting have been a factor in my life far beyond my husband.

So I've taken the label and used it to grow. But I don't label myself with it!! It's a part of behavior, it's not ME. Or YOU. It's something we might have learned to do and behavior that is holding us back can be changed!

My thoughts regarding you? You're a supportive loving partner who was incredibly strong and kick ass for enduring. An incredibly strong woman who not only cared for two young children all on her own, but helped her husband to confront and conquer something that was killing him?

Not everyone has a partner who gets through it, and that does not make anyone less weak or less loving!! Strength has so many definitions, leaving for many IS great strength and love. Bless you and your husband for shining a light and sharing success. So important to do.

laurie6781

I am an alcoholic sober a long long time. On my 3rd year anniversary my AA
sponsor STRONGLY SUGGESTED, well no actually she said "you will start
attending Alanon, TODAY and you will get an Alanon sponsor in addition to me."

Wow, did I try and do some fast stepping and hemming and hawing, but nope
she was dead serious and I went.

Well what I found out fairly quickly, even back then was that there was a term
called codependent to describe what was happening to me in my life with my
sober husband who had changed his DOC (Drug Of Choice) to Gambling.

Wow, there was a word, I now knew what was going on within me, and I had
a place with folks who once again, could help me WORK ON ME. Yes, I got an
Alanon sponsor, but she was a DOUBLE WINNER with a lot of recovery time
in AA also.

Today these many years later I too am a Double Winner. No I have no resent-
ments against the term Codependent.

Reading Melodie Beatties "Codependent No More" also helped me greatly to
actually appreciate the term 'codependent.'

J M H O

Love and hugs,

Seren

Hello clink,

I'm so very happy that your husband chose recovery! I do love a happy story. I don't really know if there is a diagnosis that one can get from a mental health professional called 'codependency', so I don't really pay attention to the term. I think it covers a variety of learned behaviors. Call it Bob if you like! Certainly not everyone who has a loved one suffering from addiction displays these learned behaviors, so I don't think it is universal.

Personally, I don't recall ever telling someone here to leave (I may be mistaken), but I have tried to assure people that they deserve better treatment than they are receiving at the hands of their loved one if abuse is involved. Decisions about staying or leaving a relationship are personal, and we really can't have a complete picture of any situation from a few words displayed on a computer screen.

You may have also noticed that many members here feel very strongly when children are involved--mostly because they were raised in a home with an active alcoholic and still suffer as a result.

Most members arrive here in a crisis situation. If their loved one seeks treatment, embraces recovery, and peace returns to their lives as a result, they typically do not post as much. So, the positive outcomes are not shared to the same degree. I wish it were different.

I always hope that while they have spent some time here, they will learn that they do not have to accept the unacceptable treatment that frequently goes hand in hand with active addiction and that they will be better prepared with strong personal boundaries in case a relapse occurs.

Peace in the valley, HG

lillamy

As for the label "codependent" -- I think I would say the same thing that I said to a friend who just found out the baby she's expecting has Down's Syndrome:

There isn't a one of us that is "normal" -- kids may come out looking like everyone else but there's never any guarantee that they'll develop the way you expect or stay free from disease and illness the way we hope. The only thing that really makes your baby different from any other baby is that people have put a label on the way she's different, and that label will help you know what to expect.

I see "codependency" as a label in the same way. If it's helpful, use it. If not, nevermind. Whatever label we use, it's only a label, it's not reality in any metaphysical way. It doesn't define who we are as individuals, but it can show us a pattern of behaviors that may or may not be helpful to us -- up to each one of us to determine, and to decide what to do with it.

PohsFriend

If we think it sucks to be called codependent can you imagine how much it must suck to be 'the problem'?

It took me about 39 years to realize that I had a bad habit in my relationships. Conflict avoidance, burying negative feelings, too much need for affirmation and too hurt by criticism. That's when I started learning to say no and set some boundaries. Even simple ones were really hard, like telling my significant other that she could not tell me what I was feeling and then mock the feeling she assigned to me. You know that one - "honey, I love you and I am not griping at you but it really upsets me when you do XYZ and it makes me feel disrespected" And then you hear "oh ********, you are just mad because ABC and that is ridiculous! You are such a loser!"

After six months of putting my head down every time my ex belittled or insulted me or called me names in marriage counseling I unloaded and I'm pretty sure everyone in the zip code is aware that I have a boundary now that says nobody gets to tell me how I feel, lol. She was too shocked to even remember to punish me for that but the counselor explained to her that I probably felt a thousand times worse than she did at that moment because I was just not allowed to do that in my own mind.

Look - we did not get to this forum without having some issues. At the same time, everyone has issues and sanity is less about not having any issues and much more about being able to see them, accept them and work on mitigating them.

Another consideration... our issues aren't always negatives. Growing up with a mom who was not well and prone to things like throwing a plate at a 12 year old's head because he cleaned the kitchen on Thanksgiving while everyone else was napping as a surprise gift to mom (good thing I let go of that huh? lol) tend to make a kid learn to avoid conflict and appease when dealing with an angry woman later. ...so I figured I'd find a therapist who was smart and let them figure out what my deal was and his conclusion was that I already knew but I wasn't seeing that the other side of that problem was that I had developed extraordinary skill at finding solutions to extremely complex problems in the midst of chaos and tension. Turns out that people who are really good at that do pretty well in business and that's why my butt is on a plane every time a big client gets mad...

So my rambling point here is that everyone has issues. We all have some tendencies that may not even be detectable under normal circumstances but come out under duress - for better or for worse. Being emotional involved with an addict is likely to exaggerate anyone's codependent tendencies.

The more I learn about addiction and disease the more thanful I am that nobody can call me an alcoholic and the more sadness and empathy I feel for people who have to fight that. Hang in there, understand and work on your issues but don't feel lesser because of them, we're all a little nuts. Keep your sense of humor. If someone calls you codependent then just apologize, ask them if there is anything they did wrong that you can clean up for them and then tell them to kiss your butt ;-)

LoveMeNow

I was so glad when I realized I was codependent. I was even happier to know others were too but had changed and found recovery. I couldn't grow, change or fix what I didn't acknowledge.

I was completely shocked at what a martyr I was. I was even more shocked that all my love, unselfishness, caring acts where mostly all about me and my needs. I thought my need to help was nothing more then compassion and love. What I didn't know was - it was giving me some sense of self worth, almost a high. Helping others was a distraction from my own issues.

Working on me and my codependency had been the gift I have ever given myself. I am finally learning the meaning of true self love and true self care. For me, that has been priceless.

LifeRecovery

Oh yes I found the term codependency easier to sit with when I realized that at some point my addiction and my codependency both had kept me alive, kept me "safe" and allowed me to fit into my family unit when I was a little kid.

They stopped "helping" and really began to hinder me. Knowing there was "reason" though allowed me to be more gentle on myself around having both.

thislonelygirl

i get what your saying i think it depends there are two sides of the same coin here. it is more than possible to be a strong loving wife who pushes to make her marriage work and husband healthy but not be co dependant.....i dont completely agree with the term co dependance but i think it refers to an unhealthy individual who relies on an unhealthy situation to complete ones self. correct me if im wrong but thats my take on it

lillamy

Agreed. And I know I was just as much in denial about my codependency as my A was about his alcoholism, for many years.

clink

Thank you for all of your responses. I hope I did not offend anyone. I think it wonderful the support this site can offer. I read a post that triggered me, I think, and made me feel guilty for exposing my kids to the stuff they got exposed to and felt mild criticism for staying. It may have just been my own feelings of guilt there that lead to the feelings of criticism. Is that a co-dependent behaviour? I don't mean to make excuses for it, I'm just trying to sort it all out in my head. Weird that is has taken me this long to even begin to look at it though. Guess I'm kinda slow I am new to this site and to seeking out support in general, so thank you for patience with me!

ShootingStar1

I don't think people on this site are saying "leave your alcoholic partner, no matter what" as much as they are saying "leave the addiction, you figure out what that means in your life".

I would call the healthy interaction between two marriage partners as "interdependence", not co-dependence.

ShootingStar1