"Helping" from behind your boundary
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 27
"Helping" from behind your boundary
Hello!
As always, many great posts/discussions here lately. I've read alot that talk about the nature of alcohol addiction, and whether it's accurately categorized as a disease or not. Not sure where I stand on this, but it has me thinking:
If alcoholism is a disease, effecting and essentially rewiring the brain, and that's the case and the addict has lost control, wouldn't it be safe to say they will be unable to "want to quit", or even be able to "commit to quit"? And again, if this is the case, at what point is it appropriate(if ever) to call professionals or emergency services about the addict? If we care enough to not want them to destroy themselves, and their brains have been rewired to the point of irrationality, can we call someone to step in out of concern for the addict's health? Not a scenario where there are threats being made, and you seek an involuntary committment out of concern for your safety, I'm talking about an evaluation based solely on concern for someone's health. Is this appropriate, and when.
Of course, these thoughts are within the context of awareness that there's nothing we can do to choose another person's behavior for them. But, that's the sticking point I'm thinking about, choice. Do they really have a choice? Hard for me to understand, maybe different for everyone. Appreciate any thoughts!
As always, many great posts/discussions here lately. I've read alot that talk about the nature of alcohol addiction, and whether it's accurately categorized as a disease or not. Not sure where I stand on this, but it has me thinking:
If alcoholism is a disease, effecting and essentially rewiring the brain, and that's the case and the addict has lost control, wouldn't it be safe to say they will be unable to "want to quit", or even be able to "commit to quit"? And again, if this is the case, at what point is it appropriate(if ever) to call professionals or emergency services about the addict? If we care enough to not want them to destroy themselves, and their brains have been rewired to the point of irrationality, can we call someone to step in out of concern for the addict's health? Not a scenario where there are threats being made, and you seek an involuntary committment out of concern for your safety, I'm talking about an evaluation based solely on concern for someone's health. Is this appropriate, and when.
Of course, these thoughts are within the context of awareness that there's nothing we can do to choose another person's behavior for them. But, that's the sticking point I'm thinking about, choice. Do they really have a choice? Hard for me to understand, maybe different for everyone. Appreciate any thoughts!
Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,038
I have also had the thought to send someone to collect my AH and get him emergency aid.
Not quite two months, he had what looked like a scary psychotic breakdown. His behavior was erratic and he could go unpredictably from being high functioning Mr. Jekyll to monster creepy Mr. Hyde.
After I'd gotten him to leave, I called my family doctor back home. I felt a great need to ask him to get my husband into the office and give him a slew of tests to determine what is wrong with him.
The doctor was very dismissive of my request and said that there was nothing he could do. He had given my husband an alcohol test and found he tested negative. He was quite confident that nothing was wrong with the man.
I'm not one to cry much, but I broke down crying and the doctor was surprised and confused by my reaction and had a hard time believing my story. Even though last summer he believed everything I said about my AH and his threatening behaviors. It was like the doctor had come under his spell. It's like people get hypnotized by him and lose all reason and memory.
Anyhow, I"m not meaning to ramble but tonight's been a doozy.
What I mean to say is that I agree that, at least for the alcoholic in my life, he needs an emergency intervention. He is out of control. He is dangerous. This waiting for him to hit bottom seems like waiting for lightening to strike. Yeah, it's possible. But while waiting for the bolt, it's pouring rain and cold and we are all going to die of pneumonia.
He is, as far as I can tell, both in command of his situation and completely helpless all at the same time.
It seems like for everyone's best interest, he needs to be institutionalized until he is cured. That's what they always did for the mentally ill. And my AH has gone nuts.
All right, forced institutionalization is also awful. But letting him loose in society isn't such a great idea, either.
Not quite two months, he had what looked like a scary psychotic breakdown. His behavior was erratic and he could go unpredictably from being high functioning Mr. Jekyll to monster creepy Mr. Hyde.
After I'd gotten him to leave, I called my family doctor back home. I felt a great need to ask him to get my husband into the office and give him a slew of tests to determine what is wrong with him.
The doctor was very dismissive of my request and said that there was nothing he could do. He had given my husband an alcohol test and found he tested negative. He was quite confident that nothing was wrong with the man.
I'm not one to cry much, but I broke down crying and the doctor was surprised and confused by my reaction and had a hard time believing my story. Even though last summer he believed everything I said about my AH and his threatening behaviors. It was like the doctor had come under his spell. It's like people get hypnotized by him and lose all reason and memory.
Anyhow, I"m not meaning to ramble but tonight's been a doozy.
What I mean to say is that I agree that, at least for the alcoholic in my life, he needs an emergency intervention. He is out of control. He is dangerous. This waiting for him to hit bottom seems like waiting for lightening to strike. Yeah, it's possible. But while waiting for the bolt, it's pouring rain and cold and we are all going to die of pneumonia.
He is, as far as I can tell, both in command of his situation and completely helpless all at the same time.
It seems like for everyone's best interest, he needs to be institutionalized until he is cured. That's what they always did for the mentally ill. And my AH has gone nuts.
All right, forced institutionalization is also awful. But letting him loose in society isn't such a great idea, either.
Lord Have Mercy
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Upper Midwest
Posts: 242
This is the crazy part about alcoholism. Denial is part of the disease. If you ask a typical A if drinking is a problem, they may not agree -- or certainly they may not agree with any plan for them to check in somewhere and never drink again. So they keep drinking.
You can't help someone who doesn't think they need help, and doesn't want any help. Even if they are "Crazy" with a mental illness called alcoholism. They are crazy, but I know my AW doesn't think she's crazy at all.
I have basically come to the conclusion that it takes a sudden trip to jail, or a medical 911 ambulance emergency, to get my AW to stop drinking. Nothing else will work.
...and whatever rehab she gets from those situations, is very tenous and possibly short-lived, so you can lather rinse and repeat that cycle over and over.
I don't think any of the "authorities", government, medical, social services, or anyone else, is going to take responsibility for someone who doesn't think there's anything wrong (other than a few drinks, but hey, everyone drinks according to the A).
I don't know of anyone in my circle who has "had someone institutionalized" because of alcoholism, it looks good on paper, but it seems like it doesn't happen too often in the real world.
You can't help someone who doesn't think they need help, and doesn't want any help. Even if they are "Crazy" with a mental illness called alcoholism. They are crazy, but I know my AW doesn't think she's crazy at all.
I have basically come to the conclusion that it takes a sudden trip to jail, or a medical 911 ambulance emergency, to get my AW to stop drinking. Nothing else will work.
...and whatever rehab she gets from those situations, is very tenous and possibly short-lived, so you can lather rinse and repeat that cycle over and over.
I don't think any of the "authorities", government, medical, social services, or anyone else, is going to take responsibility for someone who doesn't think there's anything wrong (other than a few drinks, but hey, everyone drinks according to the A).
I don't know of anyone in my circle who has "had someone institutionalized" because of alcoholism, it looks good on paper, but it seems like it doesn't happen too often in the real world.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Cleveland Ohio
Posts: 133
wouldn't it be safe to say they will be unable to "want to quit", or even be able to "commit to quit"?
All diseases have 3 things in common:
1 They have signs & symptoms
2 They are progressive
3 Left alone they are fatal.
Every disease known to man have those 3 factors. That is why alcoholism is most certainly a disease. Now let's look at two words:
1 Disease
2 Dis- Ease
Their are the same word, but #2 is the proper use of the word when it comes to drunks. I had a dis-ease with life itself. So I drank to get some ease.
can we call someone to step in out of concern for the addict's health?
. Do they really have a choice?
Hard for me to understand, maybe different for everyone.
.....................HE DOES NOT HAVE A DRINKING PROBLEM"...................
.....................HE DOES NOT HAVE A DRINKING PROBLEM....................
He has a THINKING problem. His thinking get him drunk. Read some of the posts in the newcomers section. They think they have a drinking/drug problem, and nothing will change their mind until they suffer decades of consequences......Sad but true......................Good luck
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 4,719
Originally Posted by Madtown 
Hello!
And again, if this is the case, at what point is it appropriate(if ever) to call professionals or emergency services about the addict? If we care enough to not want them to destroy themselves, and their brains have been rewired to the point of irrationality, can we call someone to step in out of concern for the addict's health?
And again, if this is the case, at what point is it appropriate(if ever) to call professionals or emergency services about the addict? If we care enough to not want them to destroy themselves, and their brains have been rewired to the point of irrationality, can we call someone to step in out of concern for the addict's health?
If I want to drink myself to death and abuse my family, that is my right to do so.
If I want to be crazy, it is my right to do so.
If I want to marry an 18 year old boy (I am 41) it is my right to do so.
Why? Because we are adults. The law says we can. Until we infringe upon someone else's civil rights or the laws of the land, that is.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 138
My AH had an emergency 911 ambulance situation about 4 years ago. I still remember the night as if it were yesterday.
I had no idea that we had any alcohol in the house, much less know that he had been drinking.
It was about midnight and I was taking a bath. My H, already in bed, nicely asked me to hurry to bed. I said I'd be there in a few minutes (bathe, dry off, get into PJs, brush teeth, etc)
So, about 15 minutes later, I get into bed and was surprised to see (and hear) that he was deep asleep. I shrugged it off and went to sleep myself.
Around 3 am I hear a THUD! I realize that my AH has fallen on the floor. THIS didn't shock me because his blood pressure meds often make him "light headed" and he will fall if he "gets up too quickly" from a reclining position. However, normally, he immediately is able to get himself back up. THIS TIME, he remained on the floor, completely unconscious.
I thought he had had a heart attack (again, I had NO IDEA that he had been drinking). I kept trying to wake him up, but to no avail. I called 911 and the paramedics and ambulance came. Everyone asked me if he had been drinking, and I said, "no." I even said that we didn't have any alcohol in the house.
We get to the hospital, and the same questions came up and I gave the same answers. Tests were done to rule out stroke, heart attack, and of course, blood was drawn. An IV was in his arm giving lots of fluids.
When the medical staff came into the room with the results that he was VERY drunk, I wanted to fall into a hole and never come out. I felt like SUCH a fool - after all, I had insisted that he hadn't been drinking AT ALL. I'll never forget the 4 staff people (nurses and doctor) leaning against the wall, telling me the news, and them saying, "Well, I guess you'll have to have a talk with your husband when he wakes up."
Finally, the IV of fluids did their job of lowering his blood alcohol level to low enough for him to "wake up"...which was about 4 hours later. He had no idea where he was, and was a bit shocked when I told him. Even then, he was in no mood to really "wake up", dress, and leave. He insisted on "sleeping it off" more. Every additional minute was pure agony for me because (again) I felt like such a fool. Those nurses and doctors must have thought that I was lying, but truly I wasn't.
Every 30 minutes I would try to wake him up again to dress so that I could take him home. Finally, a nurse told me just to take him home in what he was wearing (hospital gown.).
That was four years ago. Unfortunately, I didn't know what I know now (and I still don't know much), but AH was quite sorrowful and promised that it would never happen again. He was right that (at least with me) he never drank so much that he couldn't be awoken, but the drinking didn't stop. I wish someone at that hospital had taken me aside and told me about AA and Al-anon. I would have started back then.
Even my AH's therapists never recommended going to AA. Why is that?
I had no idea that we had any alcohol in the house, much less know that he had been drinking.
It was about midnight and I was taking a bath. My H, already in bed, nicely asked me to hurry to bed. I said I'd be there in a few minutes (bathe, dry off, get into PJs, brush teeth, etc)
So, about 15 minutes later, I get into bed and was surprised to see (and hear) that he was deep asleep. I shrugged it off and went to sleep myself.
Around 3 am I hear a THUD! I realize that my AH has fallen on the floor. THIS didn't shock me because his blood pressure meds often make him "light headed" and he will fall if he "gets up too quickly" from a reclining position. However, normally, he immediately is able to get himself back up. THIS TIME, he remained on the floor, completely unconscious.
I thought he had had a heart attack (again, I had NO IDEA that he had been drinking). I kept trying to wake him up, but to no avail. I called 911 and the paramedics and ambulance came. Everyone asked me if he had been drinking, and I said, "no." I even said that we didn't have any alcohol in the house.
We get to the hospital, and the same questions came up and I gave the same answers. Tests were done to rule out stroke, heart attack, and of course, blood was drawn. An IV was in his arm giving lots of fluids.
When the medical staff came into the room with the results that he was VERY drunk, I wanted to fall into a hole and never come out. I felt like SUCH a fool - after all, I had insisted that he hadn't been drinking AT ALL. I'll never forget the 4 staff people (nurses and doctor) leaning against the wall, telling me the news, and them saying, "Well, I guess you'll have to have a talk with your husband when he wakes up."
Finally, the IV of fluids did their job of lowering his blood alcohol level to low enough for him to "wake up"...which was about 4 hours later. He had no idea where he was, and was a bit shocked when I told him. Even then, he was in no mood to really "wake up", dress, and leave. He insisted on "sleeping it off" more. Every additional minute was pure agony for me because (again) I felt like such a fool. Those nurses and doctors must have thought that I was lying, but truly I wasn't.
Every 30 minutes I would try to wake him up again to dress so that I could take him home. Finally, a nurse told me just to take him home in what he was wearing (hospital gown.).
That was four years ago. Unfortunately, I didn't know what I know now (and I still don't know much), but AH was quite sorrowful and promised that it would never happen again. He was right that (at least with me) he never drank so much that he couldn't be awoken, but the drinking didn't stop. I wish someone at that hospital had taken me aside and told me about AA and Al-anon. I would have started back then.
Even my AH's therapists never recommended going to AA. Why is that?
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 378
There are a few books that talk about exactly this premise, being proactive and getting them help - they're very good books!
I do believe that by the 2nd - 3rd stage, they cannot stop. Brain scans also show brain damage by that point. And yes, it's baffling. Addicts are addicted, so it is rarely a simple, easy process to quit. If it were, it wouldn't be an addiction.
No More Letting Go: The Spirituality of Taking Action Against Alcoholism and Drug Addiction by Debra Jay
Love First: A Family's Guide to Intervention
Jeff Jay , Debra Jay
Get Your Loved One Sober: Alternatives to Nagging, Pleading, and Threatening by Robert J Meyers Ph.D. and Brenda L. Wolfe Ph.D
,
I do believe that by the 2nd - 3rd stage, they cannot stop. Brain scans also show brain damage by that point. And yes, it's baffling. Addicts are addicted, so it is rarely a simple, easy process to quit. If it were, it wouldn't be an addiction.
No More Letting Go: The Spirituality of Taking Action Against Alcoholism and Drug Addiction by Debra Jay
Love First: A Family's Guide to Intervention
Jeff Jay , Debra Jay
Get Your Loved One Sober: Alternatives to Nagging, Pleading, and Threatening by Robert J Meyers Ph.D. and Brenda L. Wolfe Ph.D
,
Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 109
"Under the Influence" by Milam and Ketcham has a lot of that info.
I too thought my husband was losing his mind (I still do) and we had 2 interventions following hospitalization for a seizure in April. He left the 30 day rehab in June and he is still very angry, irrational, and lies easily. I have no idea if he is drinking or not because he hid it and lied about it before but he looks pretty awful so I assume he is using again.
It is so incredibly heartbreaking to watch the person you love lose their sanity and be able to do so little about it. My heart goes out to all of you who are struggling with that right now. When I was going through it I felt hollowed out, couldn't sleep, and I was exhausted. I did everything I could, made so many sacrifices for his "rehab" and he thoroughly resents me for it. I have since moved out and life is so much more peaceful. I have much more time with the kids and so many more sweet moments now that I can focus on them and taking care of myself.
My AH is just going to have to hit his rock bottom on his own. I will never, ever do another intervention. Someone in a group therapy session at his rehab witnessed his hostile behavior towards me (it was eye-opening to realize that NOT all recovering addicts are so angry) and she knew I was contemplating divorce. She told me that I would know when I had had enough. And she was right. A few months after rehab he looked me in the eye and lied to me and that was when I knew it was over.
Anyway, it is my experience that no amount of intervention or rehab is guaranteed to work. Some mysterious switch has to flip in the addict and only then will he or she commit to recovery. I believe that none of us who love an addict has access to that switch, unfortunately.
I too thought my husband was losing his mind (I still do) and we had 2 interventions following hospitalization for a seizure in April. He left the 30 day rehab in June and he is still very angry, irrational, and lies easily. I have no idea if he is drinking or not because he hid it and lied about it before but he looks pretty awful so I assume he is using again.
It is so incredibly heartbreaking to watch the person you love lose their sanity and be able to do so little about it. My heart goes out to all of you who are struggling with that right now. When I was going through it I felt hollowed out, couldn't sleep, and I was exhausted. I did everything I could, made so many sacrifices for his "rehab" and he thoroughly resents me for it. I have since moved out and life is so much more peaceful. I have much more time with the kids and so many more sweet moments now that I can focus on them and taking care of myself.
My AH is just going to have to hit his rock bottom on his own. I will never, ever do another intervention. Someone in a group therapy session at his rehab witnessed his hostile behavior towards me (it was eye-opening to realize that NOT all recovering addicts are so angry) and she knew I was contemplating divorce. She told me that I would know when I had had enough. And she was right. A few months after rehab he looked me in the eye and lied to me and that was when I knew it was over.
Anyway, it is my experience that no amount of intervention or rehab is guaranteed to work. Some mysterious switch has to flip in the addict and only then will he or she commit to recovery. I believe that none of us who love an addict has access to that switch, unfortunately.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 378
Some mysterious switch has to flip in the addict and only then will he or she commit to recovery.
Exactly right. And for all of us. I think most of us have things we need to change but can't until . . . one day we do it. I wanted to lose a few pounds, not a lot about 12 lbs. This went on for 10 years. I just kind of ignored it. One day, went to a friend's clothing store, was trying something on and she steered me to the large section. I told her that's not my section and she looked at me and said "friends can tell friends when they need a large." AHAHAHA. The look on my face must've been priceless. I've been thin my entire life.
The switched FLIPPED. Right at that moment. I immediately went on a diet and lost it all. Who knows what can help any of us flip that switch?! Went back last week and a medium is now loose.
The Switch Flipper. Not if someone can figure that out the world would change. We never know what it will be to flip it.
Exactly right. And for all of us. I think most of us have things we need to change but can't until . . . one day we do it. I wanted to lose a few pounds, not a lot about 12 lbs. This went on for 10 years. I just kind of ignored it. One day, went to a friend's clothing store, was trying something on and she steered me to the large section. I told her that's not my section and she looked at me and said "friends can tell friends when they need a large." AHAHAHA. The look on my face must've been priceless. I've been thin my entire life.
The switched FLIPPED. Right at that moment. I immediately went on a diet and lost it all. Who knows what can help any of us flip that switch?! Went back last week and a medium is now loose.
The Switch Flipper. Not if someone can figure that out the world would change. We never know what it will be to flip it.
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