What is a real alcoholic???????
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 929
This is just my opinion, but I think the difference between a problem drinker and a person dependent on alcohol abuse, is the degree of harm caused in a persons life.
I was a problem drinker and eventually turned into a person who was dependent on abusing alcohol.
I was a problem drinker and eventually turned into a person who was dependent on abusing alcohol.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 133
Years ago, during my first attempt at quitting, I spent a lot of mental energy trying to understand the definition of my problem and also how/why I had it.
The way I see it now is: Due to my alcohol use, I am unable to live a life that satisfies my expectations of what life should be like. This creates an internal conflict in me which makes me drink more. Unless, I remove the drinking, I will always be less than I can be.
Trust me, my expectations are not lofty, but they do involve financial stability, positive relationships, reasonable physical health, the lack of the 24/7 feeling of impending doom, etc.
After many years of practicing it is clear to me that I can not achieve ALL of these and continue to drink. I don't care about a label. I do care about trying to live a better life. (Sorry if that sounds blunt or offends anyone, I just know that alcohol is poison for me, no matter what I choose to call myself)
The way I see it now is: Due to my alcohol use, I am unable to live a life that satisfies my expectations of what life should be like. This creates an internal conflict in me which makes me drink more. Unless, I remove the drinking, I will always be less than I can be.
Trust me, my expectations are not lofty, but they do involve financial stability, positive relationships, reasonable physical health, the lack of the 24/7 feeling of impending doom, etc.
After many years of practicing it is clear to me that I can not achieve ALL of these and continue to drink. I don't care about a label. I do care about trying to live a better life. (Sorry if that sounds blunt or offends anyone, I just know that alcohol is poison for me, no matter what I choose to call myself)
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Canada. About as far south as you can get
Posts: 4,768
The difference between a problem drinker and an Alcoholic is that:
A) When the alcohol is removed from the problem drinker, the problem goes away.
B) When the alcohol is removed from the Alcoholic, the problem is just beginning.
AA's "The Doctors Opinion" and "How It Works" casts a good light on the subject.
All the best.
Bob R
A) When the alcohol is removed from the problem drinker, the problem goes away.
B) When the alcohol is removed from the Alcoholic, the problem is just beginning.
AA's "The Doctors Opinion" and "How It Works" casts a good light on the subject.
All the best.
Bob R
everything is already ok
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Melbourne Victoria Australia
Posts: 19,789
If you have a problem with booze or drugs or if you think you have a problem,then you got a problem and here is a good place to stop and explore whats happening for you.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Between Meetings
Posts: 8,997
This is from pages 20 to 22 in the Big Book. I know this guy. It's me.
You may already have asked yourself why it is that all of us became so very ill from drinking. Doubtless you are curious to discover how and why, in the face of expert opinion to the contrary, we have recovered from a hopeless condition of mind and body. If you are an alcoholic who wants to get over it, you may already be asking -"What do I have to do?"
It is the purpose of this book to answer such questions specifically. We shall tell you what we have done. Before going into a detailed discussion, it may be well to summarize some points as we see them.
How many times people have said to us: "I can take it or leave it alone. Why can't he?" "Why don't you drink like a gentleman or quit?" "That fellow can't handle his liquor." "Why don't you try beer and wine?" "Lay off the hard stuff." "His will power must be weak." "He could stop if he wanted to." "She's such a sweet girl, I should think he'd stop for her sake." "The doctor told him that if he ever drank again it would kill him, but there he is all lit up again."
Now these are commonplace observations on drinkers which we hear all the time. Back of them is a world of ignorance and misunderstanding. We see that these expressions refer to people whose reactions are very different from ours.
Moderate drinkers have little trouble in giving up liquor entirely if they have good reason for it. They can take it or leave it alone.
Then we have a certain type of hard drinker. He may have the habit badly enough to gradually impair him physically and mentally. It may cause him to die a few years before his time. If a sufficiently strong reason - ill health, falling in love, change of environment, or the warning of a doctor - becomes operative, this man can also stop or moderate, although he may find it difficult and troublesome and may even need medical attention.
But what about the real alcoholic? He may start off as a moderate drinker; he may or may not become a continuous hard drinker; but at some stage of his drinking career he begins to lose all control of his liquor consumption, once he starts to drink.
Here is the fellow who has been puzzling you, especially in his lack of control. He does absurd, incredible, tragic things while drinking. He is a real Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. He is seldom mildly intoxicated. He is always more or less insanely drunk. His disposition while drinking resembles his normal nature but little. He may be one of the finest fellows in the world. Yet let him drink for a day, and he frequently becomes disgustingly, and even dangerously anti-social. He has a positive genius for getting tight at exactly the wrong moment, particularly when some important decision must be made or engagement kept. He is often perfectly sensible and well balanced concerning everything except liquor, but in that respect he is incredibly dishonest and selfish. He often possesses special abilities, skills, and aptitudes, and has a promising career ahead of him. He uses his gifts to build up a bright outlook for his family and himself, and then pulls the structure down on his head by a senseless series of sprees. He is the fellow who goes to bed so intoxicated he ought to sleep the clock around. Yet early next morning he searches madly for the bottle he misplaced the night before. If he can afford it, he may have liquor concealed all over his house to be certain no one gets his entire supply away from him to throw down the wastepipe. As matters grow worse, he begins to use a combination of high-powered sedative and liquor to quiet his nerves so he can go to work. Then comes the day when he simply cannot make it and gets drunk all over again. Perhaps he goes to a doctor who gives him morphine or some sedative with which to taper off. Then he begins to appear at hospitals and sanitariums.
This is by no means a comprehensive picture of the true alcoholic, as our behavior patterns vary. But this description should identify him roughly.
You may already have asked yourself why it is that all of us became so very ill from drinking. Doubtless you are curious to discover how and why, in the face of expert opinion to the contrary, we have recovered from a hopeless condition of mind and body. If you are an alcoholic who wants to get over it, you may already be asking -"What do I have to do?"
It is the purpose of this book to answer such questions specifically. We shall tell you what we have done. Before going into a detailed discussion, it may be well to summarize some points as we see them.
How many times people have said to us: "I can take it or leave it alone. Why can't he?" "Why don't you drink like a gentleman or quit?" "That fellow can't handle his liquor." "Why don't you try beer and wine?" "Lay off the hard stuff." "His will power must be weak." "He could stop if he wanted to." "She's such a sweet girl, I should think he'd stop for her sake." "The doctor told him that if he ever drank again it would kill him, but there he is all lit up again."
Now these are commonplace observations on drinkers which we hear all the time. Back of them is a world of ignorance and misunderstanding. We see that these expressions refer to people whose reactions are very different from ours.
Moderate drinkers have little trouble in giving up liquor entirely if they have good reason for it. They can take it or leave it alone.
Then we have a certain type of hard drinker. He may have the habit badly enough to gradually impair him physically and mentally. It may cause him to die a few years before his time. If a sufficiently strong reason - ill health, falling in love, change of environment, or the warning of a doctor - becomes operative, this man can also stop or moderate, although he may find it difficult and troublesome and may even need medical attention.
But what about the real alcoholic? He may start off as a moderate drinker; he may or may not become a continuous hard drinker; but at some stage of his drinking career he begins to lose all control of his liquor consumption, once he starts to drink.
Here is the fellow who has been puzzling you, especially in his lack of control. He does absurd, incredible, tragic things while drinking. He is a real Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. He is seldom mildly intoxicated. He is always more or less insanely drunk. His disposition while drinking resembles his normal nature but little. He may be one of the finest fellows in the world. Yet let him drink for a day, and he frequently becomes disgustingly, and even dangerously anti-social. He has a positive genius for getting tight at exactly the wrong moment, particularly when some important decision must be made or engagement kept. He is often perfectly sensible and well balanced concerning everything except liquor, but in that respect he is incredibly dishonest and selfish. He often possesses special abilities, skills, and aptitudes, and has a promising career ahead of him. He uses his gifts to build up a bright outlook for his family and himself, and then pulls the structure down on his head by a senseless series of sprees. He is the fellow who goes to bed so intoxicated he ought to sleep the clock around. Yet early next morning he searches madly for the bottle he misplaced the night before. If he can afford it, he may have liquor concealed all over his house to be certain no one gets his entire supply away from him to throw down the wastepipe. As matters grow worse, he begins to use a combination of high-powered sedative and liquor to quiet his nerves so he can go to work. Then comes the day when he simply cannot make it and gets drunk all over again. Perhaps he goes to a doctor who gives him morphine or some sedative with which to taper off. Then he begins to appear at hospitals and sanitariums.
This is by no means a comprehensive picture of the true alcoholic, as our behavior patterns vary. But this description should identify him roughly.
~sb
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: MD
Posts: 15,962
I made it to day 12 and I wanted to seriously hurt me or someone else. The steps saved my life (and others').
I couldn't stay stopped on my own and I couldn't live life without drinking. Today I am sober and happy. I am dealing with life as it comes.
I couldn't stay stopped on my own and I couldn't live life without drinking. Today I am sober and happy. I am dealing with life as it comes.
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
The quote below (from the first edition pages 108-110) in the chapter "To Wives" outlines 4 types of problem drinkers as discussed in the book "Alcoholics Anonymous".
"The problem with which you struggle usually falls within one of four categories:
One: Your husband may be only a heavy drinker.
His drinking may be constant or it may be heavy only on certain occasions. Perhaps he spends too much money for liquor. It may be slowing him up mentally and physically, but he does not see it. Sometimes he is a source of embarrassment to you and his friends. He is positive he can handle his liquor, that it does him no harm, that drinking is necessary in his business. He would probably be insulted if he were called an alcoholic. This world is full of people like him. Some will moderate or stop altogether, and some will not. Of those who keep on, a good number will become true alcoholics after a while.
Two: Your husband is showing lack of control, for he is unable to stay on the water wagon even when he wants to. He often gets entirely out of hand when drinking. He admits this is true, but is positive that he will do better. He has begun to try, with or without your cooperation, various means of moderating or staying dry. Maybe he is beginning to lose his friends. His business may suffer somewhat. He is worried at times, and is becoming aware that he cannot drink like other people. He sometimes drinks in the morning and through the day also, to hold his nervousness in check. He is remorseful after serious drinking bouts and tells you he wants to stop. But when he gets over the spree, he begins to think once more how he can drink moderately next time. We think this person is in danger. These are the earmarks of a real alcoholic. Perhaps he can still tend to business fairly well. He has by no means ruined everything. As we say among ourselves, “He wants to want to stop.”
Three: This husband has gone much further than husband number two. Though once like number two he became worse. His friends have slipped away, his home is a near-wreck and he cannot hold a position. Maybe the doctor has been called in, and the weary round of sanitariums and hospitals has begun. He admits he cannot drink like other people, but does not see why. He clings to the notion that he will yet find a way to do so. He may have come to the point where he desperately wants to stop but cannot. His case presents additional questions which we shall try to answer for you. You can be quite hopeful of a situation like this.
Four: You may have a husband of whom you completely despair. He has been placed in one institution after another. He is violent, or appears definitely insane when drunk. Sometimes he drinks on the way home from the hospital. Perhaps he has had delirium tremens. Doctors may shake their heads and advise you to have him committed. Maybe you have already been obliged to put him away. This picture may not be as dark as it looks. Many of our husbands were just as far gone. Yet they got well."
"The problem with which you struggle usually falls within one of four categories:
One: Your husband may be only a heavy drinker.
His drinking may be constant or it may be heavy only on certain occasions. Perhaps he spends too much money for liquor. It may be slowing him up mentally and physically, but he does not see it. Sometimes he is a source of embarrassment to you and his friends. He is positive he can handle his liquor, that it does him no harm, that drinking is necessary in his business. He would probably be insulted if he were called an alcoholic. This world is full of people like him. Some will moderate or stop altogether, and some will not. Of those who keep on, a good number will become true alcoholics after a while.
Two: Your husband is showing lack of control, for he is unable to stay on the water wagon even when he wants to. He often gets entirely out of hand when drinking. He admits this is true, but is positive that he will do better. He has begun to try, with or without your cooperation, various means of moderating or staying dry. Maybe he is beginning to lose his friends. His business may suffer somewhat. He is worried at times, and is becoming aware that he cannot drink like other people. He sometimes drinks in the morning and through the day also, to hold his nervousness in check. He is remorseful after serious drinking bouts and tells you he wants to stop. But when he gets over the spree, he begins to think once more how he can drink moderately next time. We think this person is in danger. These are the earmarks of a real alcoholic. Perhaps he can still tend to business fairly well. He has by no means ruined everything. As we say among ourselves, “He wants to want to stop.”
Three: This husband has gone much further than husband number two. Though once like number two he became worse. His friends have slipped away, his home is a near-wreck and he cannot hold a position. Maybe the doctor has been called in, and the weary round of sanitariums and hospitals has begun. He admits he cannot drink like other people, but does not see why. He clings to the notion that he will yet find a way to do so. He may have come to the point where he desperately wants to stop but cannot. His case presents additional questions which we shall try to answer for you. You can be quite hopeful of a situation like this.
Four: You may have a husband of whom you completely despair. He has been placed in one institution after another. He is violent, or appears definitely insane when drunk. Sometimes he drinks on the way home from the hospital. Perhaps he has had delirium tremens. Doctors may shake their heads and advise you to have him committed. Maybe you have already been obliged to put him away. This picture may not be as dark as it looks. Many of our husbands were just as far gone. Yet they got well."
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,572
If you are drinking to the point that it's a problem, you are an alcoholic.
I think there is no clear line. Just because I'm not actively working aa, doesn't mean I wasn't an alcoholic.
You could ask my wife, the cops, my business associates, or just come to the source, and I'd tell you.
Anyone who isn't an alcoholic would never do the things I've done, because it is insanity.
I think instead of two categories, it's more like a sliding scale, starting with social drinking and ending with sitting homeless, feet rotting off from gangrene, drinking to avoid seizures.
There's a lot of crap grey area in between.
I think there is no clear line. Just because I'm not actively working aa, doesn't mean I wasn't an alcoholic.
You could ask my wife, the cops, my business associates, or just come to the source, and I'd tell you.
Anyone who isn't an alcoholic would never do the things I've done, because it is insanity.
I think instead of two categories, it's more like a sliding scale, starting with social drinking and ending with sitting homeless, feet rotting off from gangrene, drinking to avoid seizures.
There's a lot of crap grey area in between.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: My city of ruins...
Posts: 593
It is all manageable...until it's not. That's when to stop drinking. Period.
Doesn't matter what it's called - when it is a problem you know it. May deny it or try to fix it, but you just know, deep down, that stopping is the only option to live well.
Doesn't matter what it's called - when it is a problem you know it. May deny it or try to fix it, but you just know, deep down, that stopping is the only option to live well.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 129
According to Gabor Mate, MD in "In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts," addiction is: "Compulsion, impaired control, persistence, irritability, relapse and craving - these are the hallmarks of addiction - any addiction." p. 129.
Interestingly he also states that it is not the substance that causes addiction, because many people can use the most addictive of substances and not be an addict. Therefore, it is a problem inside the person (not the substance).
Audra
Interestingly he also states that it is not the substance that causes addiction, because many people can use the most addictive of substances and not be an addict. Therefore, it is a problem inside the person (not the substance).
Audra
Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 5,678
I have to put a vote in for DB's sliding scale theory. The BB allows that 'real' alcoholics can start of as moderate drinkers.
This is a question that pops up for me now and then though. Sometimes I feel like the concept of a 'real alcoholic' is divisive, because maybe I'm not one. Maybe I was just a hard drinker. But then I have to remember that the only requirement for membership to AA is a desire to stop drinking. It doesn't matter where you are on the scale.
This is a question that pops up for me now and then though. Sometimes I feel like the concept of a 'real alcoholic' is divisive, because maybe I'm not one. Maybe I was just a hard drinker. But then I have to remember that the only requirement for membership to AA is a desire to stop drinking. It doesn't matter where you are on the scale.
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