choublak

that giving an ultimatum will scare someone into quitting drinking? Back when my boyfriend was drinking, a lot of people would tell me, "tell him if he doesn't quit drinking you will leave", the assumption of course being that if I told him that, he would quit drinking and so I wouldn't have to leave. Even my own mother gave me that advice. She herself tried that repeatedly with my dad as he was cheating on her. It never worked though; instead it turned into a merry-go-round. I think my mom has used that ultimatum tactic in raising me, to try to get me to do things she wanted. But a lot of it was just to scare me into doing what I was told. Anyway, why do people seem to think that's effective unless/until they deal with an A, or a narcissist, or a mentally sick person?

MsPINKAcres

I believe it is because people feel they have that sense of control ~
a false sense of security that they are controlling the situation by demanding things be their way ~

I agree it never works ~

drunkyjules

I think a lot of people underestimate the power of the disease. Maybe for some people it might work to be threatened?? Depending on the person and where they are in the progression of their disease......maybe it would but I say most likely not.

We have to want it for ourselves. If only threats worked there would probably be a lot more sober people!! It really is an inside job.

SparkleKitty

Because they are not involved with the addiction personally, and they don't get it that it can't be scared out of someone. They think the addict can be fooled into believing an empty threat.

Note that they aren't saying, "If he/she doesn't quit drinking, you should leave." They are advising trying to scare the addict into quitting. It's a tactic that only has one shot at working and rarely ever does. But until they have walked a mile in the shoes of someone living with an addict, they can't possibly understand that.

choublak

Right, but what I'm asking is, why do people who aren't very familiar with addiction seem to think an ultimatum will work? Is it that threats work with most "normal" people?

Katiekate

Because they are not familiar with the disease.

Normal people usually don't have to make ultimatums, in normal relationships there is validation, concern, discussion and compromise.

choublak

But if they don't have to make ultimatums, why would they suggest that someone else make one? How would they even know to suggest an ultimatum if they don't even have to make them?

choublak

Where are they getting the idea that this will work though?

onlythetruth

I actually think ultimatums work pretty well if they are sincere, meaning that the giver of the ultimatum is prepared to follow through.

If you tell someone you'll leave them if they don't quit drinking, and you mean it, one of two things will happen: the person will quit drinking, OR they will not, and you will no longer be in a relationship with them.

Of course, if you tell someone you'll leave them if they don't quit drinking, but you don't mean it, then nothing will change....but that isn't an ultimatum at all, it's really nothing but an idle threat.

choublak

Yeah, but there seem to be a lot of people who think idle threats work as a means to control another person. When they say to give an ultimatum, they assume that the giver of the ultimatum won't need to follow through because the threat itself is enough to scare the person into quitting drinking.

SparkleKitty

I don't think they honestly have ANY idea that it will work. It just sounds good. It sounds like it should be just that simple. Maybe they think it would work for them. Who knows?

People like to give advice. They do not always do it from a place of knowledge, experience, or understanding. But usually their intention is just to be helpful. When someone gives me advice, it's my job to give their advice the appropriate weight and value. I take advice from certain people on certain topics more readily than others. Most I take with a grain of salt. If I believe their experience closely resembles mine, I give their words more weight.

I wonder how many people who advise giving ultimatums have ever actually made one.

Thumper

I think it is because if someone I cared deeply about came to me and said "I will leave you and take your children with me if you don't stop xyz destructive behavior. You are causing us to much pain" I would stop. I would see how destructive I was and I'd do whatever I could to not lose them.

But then I don't have an addicted mind. We extrapolate our perceptions and ways of thinking on other people and that doesn't work with addicts. The voice of addiction is *inside* their head but many people don't really get that.

I gave an ultimatum. He didn't change his behavior but I didn't back down either.

choublak

LOL that's the thing, my parents are like the king and queen of fake ultimatums (although now they're getting a divorce)... I understand that parents are people too and that kids don't come with a manual, but where does someone get the idea that you should raise kids by giving ultimatums and going back on them all the time?

JeffKan1

My two cents: when a person is raising their child, they must tell the child how they expect the child to behave. If the child doesn't meet expectations, a consequence is given. Then later in life, you tell the child the consequence up front, and the child has the chance to avoid the consequence by giving the desired behavior.

Think of the alcoholic as a child. It's the same thing. But if you give a child an ultimatum, followed by no consequence at all, ain't no way the child is going to change their behavior. But with an A, they usually won't change even after the consequence.

As far as why people advise you to give an ultimatum with no concern for the possibility the A will blow you off, who knows. Remember, just because someone gives you advice, doesn't mean you have to follow it. Think it over, look at your situation, and make a decision if that advice works well for you. If you try the advice and it doesn't help, well you've learned something and you move on.

You could threaten an A with the taking of their life, and they probably would not change. A threat is not gonna work unless the person thinks the pain of the threatened action is worse than their current behavior. And an A does NOT think logically, not at all.

Best of luck to you!

onlythetruth

Well, I suspect that most folks do know that idle threats are useless...this is common knowledge, and it's not just applicable to addicted folks. Threats are simply not effective in any situation unless they are backed up with willingness to follow through.

I suspect that what outsiders actually fail to understand is how often people really are NOT willing to follow through.

onlythetruth

Then this was a successful ultimatum. He didn't change: you didn't back down. You got what you were looking for--out of the soup--even if that result didn't happen because he changed his behavior.

Perhaps the problem is expecting that the outcome of an ultimatum will be that the other person does what you've demanded.

SparkleKitty

Heh. My mom would spew ultimatums out constantly, "One more word out of your mouth and you're going to military school!" They meant nothing. We all knew it. But I don't think she ever thought they would work. I think I can count the number of times she actually thought before screaming on one hand.

choublak

This.

Too many people have this expectation, all too often.

onlythetruth

Right. In fact I learned a lot about this very thing from raising my own kids. After screwing up quite a bit, I learned that the worst thing I could ever do was to lie to them, and that an empty threat ("if you don't stop fighting, you'll be grounded for a YEAR!") was not only a lie but a lie that typically achieved the exact OPPOSITE of what I wanted!!!!

Remember the famous car-trip line (given near the end of a long ride): "If you kids don't shut up I am turning the car around and going home right now!!!!"?

Everyone, absolutely everyone, says this to their kids! Why? LOL

choublak

The thing is, when my mom first found out my dad was cheating, she told him she was kicking him out of the house. So she folded up all his clothes and put them in the garage, and left a note on top saying "please change your mind" and blablabla. But my dad didn't want to make a choice between my mom and his mistress; he wanted to be able to have both. My mom would tell him, "you have to make a choice" so he would start crying and making empty promises which she believed and would take him back. He would be on his "best behavior" for about two months and then start to slip, because he was still seeing the mistress all along, she would make him leave, he'd leave for about three months, get "tired" of the mistress, go back to my mom, start crying and empty-promising his way back, be back with my mom for three months, and repeat. For some reason it was always three months. She would always say she couldn't divorce him because they'd been married 27 years, and because she didn't want to be alone. I guess she finally has had enough. I really don't know a lot of details because I don't really talk to her that much anymore, and when I do, we don't talk about my father.

What bugged me was when she asked me, "why did you waste your time learning about alcoholism? Why don't you just leave him?" back when my boyfriend was drinking. She also said, "why don't you just tell him 'if you don't quit drinking I'll leave'?" which made me think about when she gave my dad these fake ultimatums. My dad didn't do what she wanted, so then she would "revise" them...which never worked. So, what would possess her to suggest I apply similar idle threats in my relationships? Maybe she really believes the only "decent" men are the ones who change to your liking when you throw idle threats at them?