To Wives
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 14
To Wives
My RA girlfriend stopped by my apartment while I was at work to pick up some stuff, (she relapsed after 3 years sober (or so I think, I don’t know anymore), and I kicked her out of my apartment).
Since then I am coping with the idea of ending our 2 year relationship, where everything seemed to go downhill since she moved in with me 6 months ago, (after reading the forums here, it seems she was going through a dry drunk spell).
Since kicking her out, my A.A. friends have been giving me support along the way. I registered on this site and it has been very insightful and informative. I went to an ALANON meeting this past Monday, and I am almost finished reading Codependent No More, (where I realized that me and my RAGF were both codependent).
The funny thing is, is that during our past arguments, she would tell me to go to ALANON. Go to ALANON. And I was angry, “why do I have to go, you’re the one with the problem.” But after reading about ALANON and going to meeting, I get a sense that I “need to let go”, “detach,” etc.
It seems odd to me that she would want me to go to these meetings. I don’t think she realized that if I had gone earlier, maybe it would have been easier to pull away… (unless of course I am losing something in the translation).
When I got back home, I found an A.A. book lying open on the coffee table. It was turned to the chapter entitled, “To Wives”, or something similar.
What is the RA motive for wanting me to read this chapter? After reading it, I felt that there were some slight differences between that and more recent literature. Since it was written a while ago, I feel that wives of As weren’t supposed to leave their husband. I got the sensation that wives were supposed to ride it out…
I don’t know. What are your thoughts?
Since then I am coping with the idea of ending our 2 year relationship, where everything seemed to go downhill since she moved in with me 6 months ago, (after reading the forums here, it seems she was going through a dry drunk spell).
Since kicking her out, my A.A. friends have been giving me support along the way. I registered on this site and it has been very insightful and informative. I went to an ALANON meeting this past Monday, and I am almost finished reading Codependent No More, (where I realized that me and my RAGF were both codependent).
The funny thing is, is that during our past arguments, she would tell me to go to ALANON. Go to ALANON. And I was angry, “why do I have to go, you’re the one with the problem.” But after reading about ALANON and going to meeting, I get a sense that I “need to let go”, “detach,” etc.
It seems odd to me that she would want me to go to these meetings. I don’t think she realized that if I had gone earlier, maybe it would have been easier to pull away… (unless of course I am losing something in the translation).
When I got back home, I found an A.A. book lying open on the coffee table. It was turned to the chapter entitled, “To Wives”, or something similar.
What is the RA motive for wanting me to read this chapter? After reading it, I felt that there were some slight differences between that and more recent literature. Since it was written a while ago, I feel that wives of As weren’t supposed to leave their husband. I got the sensation that wives were supposed to ride it out…
I don’t know. What are your thoughts?
Iceberg Ahead!
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Out at Sea
Posts: 1,177
To Wives is where the seeds of Al-Anon grew from. See the footnote reference at pages 104 and 121.
The Chapter gives the spouse a recap of what living with an A has been for most spouses (i.e., we understand you), four types of As, and the beginnings of what life with sobriety may bring. The next Chapter, The Family Afterwards, goes into more details about how to deal with the A and other issues in recovery.
You can always ask her, after reading it, why specifically she thought it was important that you read it. There's always a reason or passage for their leaving it out. I remember leaving tags in the Big Book for the A to read (page 108, for example).
The Chapter gives the spouse a recap of what living with an A has been for most spouses (i.e., we understand you), four types of As, and the beginnings of what life with sobriety may bring. The next Chapter, The Family Afterwards, goes into more details about how to deal with the A and other issues in recovery.
You can always ask her, after reading it, why specifically she thought it was important that you read it. There's always a reason or passage for their leaving it out. I remember leaving tags in the Big Book for the A to read (page 108, for example).
peaceful seabird
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: floating
Posts: 4,822
I put it in this perspective of time:
Women were granted the right to vote in 1920.
The Big Book was published in 1939.
Less than 20 years of women beginning to receive equal rights in our society. Women were granted a civil right, but not many other rights. The Feminist Movement didn't begin meeting until the late 1940's. That was the beginning of empowerment of women's rights, imho.
I believe I will follow the slogan: Take what you like, and leave the rest.
As far as trying to understand your RAX's motive for leaving the book open to that chapter ~ do you really want to twist yourself into a pretzel and try to understand the motives of an alcoholic?
Women were granted the right to vote in 1920.
The Big Book was published in 1939.
Less than 20 years of women beginning to receive equal rights in our society. Women were granted a civil right, but not many other rights. The Feminist Movement didn't begin meeting until the late 1940's. That was the beginning of empowerment of women's rights, imho.
I believe I will follow the slogan: Take what you like, and leave the rest.
As far as trying to understand your RAX's motive for leaving the book open to that chapter ~ do you really want to twist yourself into a pretzel and try to understand the motives of an alcoholic?
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 4,719
My first thought - and I mean this is no way mean - why care about that chapter?
If she is not in recovery and working her own program, then what difference does it make?
Even if she is in recovery and working her own program, if her behavior is so lousy that it led you to request she move out, what difference does it make trying to understand her motivation for anything?
What I get out of that chapter is the request that wives of alcoholics have compassion. That I have, but it doesn't mean I have to tolerate bad behavior. Early sobriety is just as bumpy as active drinking, if not more, and it is easy for the wives (spouses, I should say in 2012) to assume getting sober means a return to how things may have once been, when in fact its basically starting over.
X - take this time to spend on your issues. There was a very good reason you kicked her out. Spend some time learning what it is you really need in a relationship, and what you are willing to give in return. Take it one day at a time, and know that we don't know the future - you may find you want to be with her again, or she may find another person quickly, or you might, who knows? But trying to understand someone's motivation without actually asking them is magical thinking.
If she is not in recovery and working her own program, then what difference does it make?
Even if she is in recovery and working her own program, if her behavior is so lousy that it led you to request she move out, what difference does it make trying to understand her motivation for anything?
What I get out of that chapter is the request that wives of alcoholics have compassion. That I have, but it doesn't mean I have to tolerate bad behavior. Early sobriety is just as bumpy as active drinking, if not more, and it is easy for the wives (spouses, I should say in 2012) to assume getting sober means a return to how things may have once been, when in fact its basically starting over.
X - take this time to spend on your issues. There was a very good reason you kicked her out. Spend some time learning what it is you really need in a relationship, and what you are willing to give in return. Take it one day at a time, and know that we don't know the future - you may find you want to be with her again, or she may find another person quickly, or you might, who knows? But trying to understand someone's motivation without actually asking them is magical thinking.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Midwest, USA
Posts: 2,899
If wives were encouraged to stay with their alcoholic husbands back in 1939, it's because women didn't have other options. Really the best thing an average woman could hope for was to marry well and be healthy. If she married poorly and/or the family was unwell, she was expected to make it work. Her wants and needs weren't really part of the equation because it was expected that a woman's job was to caretake for her family and maintain the family structure. Some women worked, usually in a family or low-wage business, and the most they could hope for was usually jobs and education as nurses, teachers, and secretaries. There were exceptions, but these women were exceptionally wealthy, privileged (usually white), or really, really crafty.
We have options today. We can make out own ways. We can divorce and remarry, have our own bank accounts, open our own businesses, conduct business without having to run it through a male family member first.
It's absolutely central that we figure out how to survive and find a way to be emotionally well when a loved one is under the influence of addiction. But we don't have to stay anymore. I'm deeply suspicious of the working stigmas and personal motives of people who encourage us to stay in addictive relationships, or on the relapse rollercoaster (HI, MOM!).
We have options today. We can make out own ways. We can divorce and remarry, have our own bank accounts, open our own businesses, conduct business without having to run it through a male family member first.
It's absolutely central that we figure out how to survive and find a way to be emotionally well when a loved one is under the influence of addiction. But we don't have to stay anymore. I'm deeply suspicious of the working stigmas and personal motives of people who encourage us to stay in addictive relationships, or on the relapse rollercoaster (HI, MOM!).
Community Greeter
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
Just to add my bit to what Florence posted:
I think many women stay with partners/husbands today because they don't see that there are other options---just like many decades ago. This always makes me so sad because I know that these barriers are very real---esp. when there are children involved.
dandylion
I think many women stay with partners/husbands today because they don't see that there are other options---just like many decades ago. This always makes me so sad because I know that these barriers are very real---esp. when there are children involved.
dandylion
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,443
Yes - pointless.
I had zero use for that chapter. Perhaps I didn't read it in the right frame of mind. I did read it but must have blocked it out because I don't even remember it. Probably blinded by my defiance
My ex also thought al-anon was great but that is because he though it would teach me how to be more supportive of him (or his quacking). I'd finally learn how to be a good little wife. Once he figured out that it really didn't have a damn thing to do with propping him up he decided it was brainwashing marriage wrecking crazy talk.
I had zero use for that chapter. Perhaps I didn't read it in the right frame of mind. I did read it but must have blocked it out because I don't even remember it. Probably blinded by my defiance
My ex also thought al-anon was great but that is because he though it would teach me how to be more supportive of him (or his quacking). I'd finally learn how to be a good little wife. Once he figured out that it really didn't have a damn thing to do with propping him up he decided it was brainwashing marriage wrecking crazy talk.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: right here, right now
Posts: 6,516
It's absolutely central that we figure out how to survive and find a way to be emotionally well when a loved one is under the influence of addiction. But we don't have to stay anymore. I'm deeply suspicious of the working stigmas and personal motives of people who encourage us to stay in addictive relationships, or on the relapse rollercoaster
........brainwashing, marriage wrecking, crazy talk!!!Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 21
At the advice of my new friends here, I read To the Wives. But to be honest, it wasn't until my alcoholic boyfriend asked me to. The parts reminding us of what an alcoholic is was kind of moot to me. However, I was floored when I read the sections about how I will become jealous of the "neglect" he would display because he was pouring all of his time into his AA friends. He pretty much stopped caring about anything in my life. All we talked about was them, etc.
After I read it, George and I talked about it. I asked him why he wanted me to read it. He told me it was so that I would understand that this "neglect" is normal for where he stands in his recovery. First, I thought, well that's BS! I have paid my dues! I deserve his attention, he owes me! Then when I really thought about it, I realized I how selfish that was. But I also realized somethine else. That chapter also pointed out to him that the jealousy and anger I was feeling was normal too. We had a great discussion about it and it has made all the difference.
As for the material being dated, it certainly is. But rather than just trying to follow it word for word, apply it to your own life. We are all different and all of our alcoholics are different so not every word in any book is going to completely apply to everyone. What you should do is read all of it over and over again. Then sincerely admit which parts are true to your life and apply them. If something simply doesn't fit, move on. For example, my boyfriend has never been physically violent with me. Not even close. So when they talk about that, I know that it's not something I can relate to. So I try to focus on the parts that I can.
After I read it, George and I talked about it. I asked him why he wanted me to read it. He told me it was so that I would understand that this "neglect" is normal for where he stands in his recovery. First, I thought, well that's BS! I have paid my dues! I deserve his attention, he owes me! Then when I really thought about it, I realized I how selfish that was. But I also realized somethine else. That chapter also pointed out to him that the jealousy and anger I was feeling was normal too. We had a great discussion about it and it has made all the difference.
As for the material being dated, it certainly is. But rather than just trying to follow it word for word, apply it to your own life. We are all different and all of our alcoholics are different so not every word in any book is going to completely apply to everyone. What you should do is read all of it over and over again. Then sincerely admit which parts are true to your life and apply them. If something simply doesn't fit, move on. For example, my boyfriend has never been physically violent with me. Not even close. So when they talk about that, I know that it's not something I can relate to. So I try to focus on the parts that I can.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,295
I only have one question: Since a SHE left it open to that page, does it imply she was leaving it open for you to read as a hint, or did she simply leave the book open at that page?
Communication is key to every relationship. I would ask if that was left open at that page for you, or simply left open at that page.
I don't know if you are in a heterosexual relationship, so that may add to my confusion.
Sure, the "to the wives" could be read "to the husbands of wives who are alcoholics" but, my question is still simply, was it a hint, or was it coincidence?
Communication is key to every relationship. I would ask if that was left open at that page for you, or simply left open at that page.
I don't know if you are in a heterosexual relationship, so that may add to my confusion.
Sure, the "to the wives" could be read "to the husbands of wives who are alcoholics" but, my question is still simply, was it a hint, or was it coincidence?
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 326
Originally Posted by Thumper 
Yes - pointless.
I had zero use for that chapter.
I had zero use for that chapter.
"Never be angry, don't be critical, don't let his alcoholism affect your children, don't be resentful." This is asking the wife to be super human.
I have the right NOT to be super human.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 120
It's worth pointing out that although the To Wives chapter of the BB appears to come from the perspective of Lois Wilson, it was actually written by Bill. She wanted to write it but despite her experience as the wife of an alcoholic and her professional background as a psychiatric nurse Bill didn't allow her to because he wanted that chapter to suit him.
As such I'd be very, very careful about taking anything from that chapter as it's written from the perspective of a very manipulative alcoholic husband talking about what he wants from his wife, not a wife who has found a successful way forward with a recovering husband. And knowing how appallingly Bill treated Lois over the entire course of their marriage, in many ways he treated her worse sober than he ever did drunk, that chapter is actually really creepy.
As such I'd be very, very careful about taking anything from that chapter as it's written from the perspective of a very manipulative alcoholic husband talking about what he wants from his wife, not a wife who has found a successful way forward with a recovering husband. And knowing how appallingly Bill treated Lois over the entire course of their marriage, in many ways he treated her worse sober than he ever did drunk, that chapter is actually really creepy.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,243
And I would add....
Maybe YOUR HP made sure your A hinted you read the chapter so you would be motivated to seek answers from this forum and elsewhere. In our journey to recovery more will be revealed.
And I second Kitty's remarks... Bill did write "To the Wives" and it is extremely dated, biased and sexist. Someday, perhaps not this generation that still has many oldtimers but someday... the BB will be revised.
Not to hijack the thread but there was a lot of division among the early members of AA over the way Bill handled the BB and it's writings.
For all of his Bill's genius he had some serious character defects and flaws ... as we all do... but without him AA would not be what it is today. It has been said that had the Dr. Bob created AA it wouldn't have left Ohio and had Bill W. created AA it would have been a for profit corporation.
Eat the hay spit out the straw... there is wisdom, experience and truth throughout the BB but always seek your HP and know the context in which some things were written.
Maybe YOUR HP made sure your A hinted you read the chapter so you would be motivated to seek answers from this forum and elsewhere. In our journey to recovery more will be revealed.
And I second Kitty's remarks... Bill did write "To the Wives" and it is extremely dated, biased and sexist. Someday, perhaps not this generation that still has many oldtimers but someday... the BB will be revised.
Not to hijack the thread but there was a lot of division among the early members of AA over the way Bill handled the BB and it's writings.
For all of his Bill's genius he had some serious character defects and flaws ... as we all do... but without him AA would not be what it is today. It has been said that had the Dr. Bob created AA it wouldn't have left Ohio and had Bill W. created AA it would have been a for profit corporation.
Eat the hay spit out the straw... there is wisdom, experience and truth throughout the BB but always seek your HP and know the context in which some things were written.
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,826
You need to do what you feel right, going to Alanon will help with this decision. We don't have to ride anything out if we are not being treated well.
Originally Posted by Xtapodi
My RA girlfriend stopped by my apartment while I was at work to pick up some stuff, (she relapsed after 3 years sober (or so I think, I don’t know anymore), and I kicked her out of my apartment).
Since then I am coping with the idea of ending our 2 year relationship, where everything seemed to go downhill since she moved in with me 6 months ago, (after reading the forums here, it seems she was going through a dry drunk spell).
Since kicking her out, my A.A. friends have been giving me support along the way. I registered on this site and it has been very insightful and informative. I went to an ALANON meeting this past Monday, and I am almost finished reading Codependent No More, (where I realized that me and my RAGF were both codependent).
The funny thing is, is that during our past arguments, she would tell me to go to ALANON. Go to ALANON. And I was angry, “why do I have to go, you’re the one with the problem.” But after reading about ALANON and going to meeting, I get a sense that I “need to let go”, “detach,” etc.
It seems odd to me that she would want me to go to these meetings. I don’t think she realized that if I had gone earlier, maybe it would have been easier to pull away… (unless of course I am losing something in the translation).
When I got back home, I found an A.A. book lying open on the coffee table. It was turned to the chapter entitled, “To Wives”, or something similar.
What is the RA motive for wanting me to read this chapter? After reading it, I felt that there were some slight differences between that and more recent literature. Since it was written a while ago, I feel that wives of As weren’t supposed to leave their husband. I got the sensation that wives were supposed to ride it out…
I don’t know. What are your thoughts?
Since then I am coping with the idea of ending our 2 year relationship, where everything seemed to go downhill since she moved in with me 6 months ago, (after reading the forums here, it seems she was going through a dry drunk spell).
Since kicking her out, my A.A. friends have been giving me support along the way. I registered on this site and it has been very insightful and informative. I went to an ALANON meeting this past Monday, and I am almost finished reading Codependent No More, (where I realized that me and my RAGF were both codependent).
The funny thing is, is that during our past arguments, she would tell me to go to ALANON. Go to ALANON. And I was angry, “why do I have to go, you’re the one with the problem.” But after reading about ALANON and going to meeting, I get a sense that I “need to let go”, “detach,” etc.
It seems odd to me that she would want me to go to these meetings. I don’t think she realized that if I had gone earlier, maybe it would have been easier to pull away… (unless of course I am losing something in the translation).
When I got back home, I found an A.A. book lying open on the coffee table. It was turned to the chapter entitled, “To Wives”, or something similar.
What is the RA motive for wanting me to read this chapter? After reading it, I felt that there were some slight differences between that and more recent literature. Since it was written a while ago, I feel that wives of As weren’t supposed to leave their husband. I got the sensation that wives were supposed to ride it out…
I don’t know. What are your thoughts?
Iceberg Ahead!
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Out at Sea
Posts: 1,177
There's a reason that Al-Anon has its own "Big Book" ("How Al-Anon Works for Families & Friends of Alcoholics"). The "To Wives" chapter in AA's Big Book was one of the big reasons, but not everything in it is straw. For example, "Be determined that your husband's drinking is not going to spoil your relations with your children or your friends." Page 111 (emphasis added). That's the actual language.
Thanks for the balanced post Hopeworks!
Thanks for the balanced post Hopeworks!
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
